[Week 12] Zelda's Moveset Discussion: Down B (Transform)

[Kataefi]

I once set my C-Stick to attack rather than smashes, but I can only seem to attack one way. If I press back she'll do her normal jab, and sometimes when I attack out of shield I jump when I use the C-stick instead do the attack I need.

If there was a way to fix this I'd switch to having this control scheme...

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I'll take a move with that much range any day.

Range shmange. It's laggy and easy to punish, especially compared to her other moves. Ftilt blows. If they had given it at least some kind of distinct quality I would use it more but there is pretty much ALWAYS a better option.

 

[-Mars-]

Range shmange. It's laggy and easy to punish, especially compared to her other moves. Ftilt blows. If they had given it at least some kind of distinct quality I would use it more but there is pretty much ALWAYS a better option.

It's a fairly good spacing tool. It comes out 4 rames faster than fsmash, so I really don't see why it's useless; granted it has significant cooldown time but if you space it properly it can somewhat be used as a poke. Good priority, range, decent damage........it's not like we need more kill moves. I think it's a decent move that is just underutilized. Watching some of NinjaLinks vids made me realize how effective it can be at times.

In a few situations where your trying to keep fsmash a little fresh, ftilt is never a bad idea. I really don't use it much against faster characters that have time to react to it, but against heavies a lot of times it can't be punished.

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

It's a fairly good spacing tool. It comes out 4 rames faster than fsmash, so I really don't see why it's useless; granted it has significant cooldown time but if you space it properly it can somewhat be used as a poke. Good priority, range, decent damage........it's not like we need more kill moves. I think it's a decent move that is just underutilized. Watching some of NinjaLinks vids made me realize how effective it can be at times.

In a few situations where your trying to keep fsmash a little fresh, ftilt is never a bad idea. I really don't use it much against faster characters that have time to react to it, but against heavies a lot of times it can't be punished.

True, because her ftilt is better than just spamming smashes but faster characters tend to grab her even when they are far away(Characters like sonic and captain falcon).

 

[sniperworm]

The up angled Ftilt is actually pretty good at stopping SH approaches. The combination of horizontal range and the slight upward angle make it hard to get around. I've hit G&W out of his Bair with it, which I think is pretty impressive.

Overall, it's a good move to mix in every now and then just to keep your play style fresh. However, it'll never be a move that can be used extensively because of that awful lag afterwards.

 

[goodkid]

Its a decent move with decent power, kills like at 150%+ with DI, but yeah it has some lag afterwards and you can't overlook the range & priority

 

[Brinzy]

Ftilt -> bair anyone?

I use that combo in the same way that one would use Nayru's -> dair at an edge, except I don't have to stand as close to the edge to place them off of the stage with it.

In all honesty, I forget about this move the most. I much prefer ftilts that don't have even mediocre KO potential, because then it can lead into jabs and grabs, and then it can KO. KOing ftilts aren't too bad, but the problem with Zelda's is the trajectory it has on opponents isn't really all too favorable. They're usually knocked too far away for an easy follow-up, though I think the point of this move was to use her Up-anything afterwards. This isn't to say that it has a harder time KOing or anything, but I only use it for KOing if my Fsmash has been decayed (as I tend to use Fsmash at low %s to set up strings of attacks that can get them to even 50%).

That said, even though it isn't a blindingly fast attack, there is no DIing out of it and the fact that it can be angled is good enough for me. It's better to use this instead of dtilt at very low and very high damages. Dtilt is probably better for in-between. All in all, it's a move that gets neglected for various reasons, but it isn't particularly worthless. Use it to heal decay, use it at very low %s, and use it to KO at higher damages.

 

[Kaffei]

Ftilt -> bair anyone?

I use that combo in the same way that one would use Nayru's -> dair at an edge, except I don't have to stand as close to the edge to place them off of the stage with it.

In all honesty, I forget about this move the most. I much prefer ftilts that don't have even mediocre KO potential, because then it can lead into jabs and grabs, and then it can KO. KOing ftilts aren't too bad, but the problem with Zelda's is the trajectory it has on opponents isn't really all too favorable. They're usually knocked too far away for an easy follow-up, though I think the point of this move was to use her Up-anything afterwards. This isn't to say that it has a harder time KOing or anything, but I only use it for KOing if my Fsmash has been decayed (as I tend to use Fsmash at low %s to set up strings of attacks that can get them to even 50%).

That said, even though it isn't a blindingly fast attack, there is no DIing out of it and the fact that it can be angled is good enough for me. It's better to use this instead of dtilt at very low and very high damages. Dtilt is probably better for in-between. All in all, it's a move that gets neglected for various reasons, but it isn't particularly worthless. Use it to decay, use it at very low %s, and use it to KO at higher damages.

That's a pretty reasonable combo, but landing an f-tilt is soo hard for me.
Any tips? :s

 

[Brinzy]

It's understandable as to why you'd have trouble landing ftilt. Fsmash is... well, Fsmash, dtilt comes out quicker, Dsmash is much faster than it, etc.

This move is excellent on taller characters. Swipe at their feet and you'll probably stand a decent chance at going right under their shield. This is a nice follow-up if you've already eaten their shield with an Fsmash that might've been improperly spaced (as in, they were closer to Zelda than you wanted, shielded, moved back a bit, and then you ftilt at their feet for a virtually guaranteed shieldstab on a lot of characters). There are some characters that I just won't use this move on when they're grounded. Squirtle and Olimar are a couple of examples. This is because you're probably not shieldstabbing thanks to their height.

Like someone said earlier, angling ftilt upward is a nice answer to short-hops. Other than that, I would suggest against ever using this angle. The standard ftilt works a lot like the lower-angled ftilt, except you're probably not going to hit someone who is shielding with it. Pretty standard move.

Sometimes I'll turn away from my opponent and then turn and ftilt. If I don't want to have them wherever they'll be after ftilt, I Fsmash instead. I got into a bad habit of using Nayru's when someone was behind me; ftilt is probably a better option for this unless you absolutely can get off a better move than ftilt. Like I said earlier, I've hit with it a fair bit after a blocked Fsmash one way or another, and I think that being able to remove the chance of DIing out of the attack is a great reason to use it.

So essentially, my opinion is that you should just start replacing it with Fsmash when you're spaced out nicely for the move, because even though the final hit of Fsmash barely, barely outranges it, that comes out a bit later than ftilt, so why not get that range a bit faster? Angle it downwards and you have a better move. Upwards is good for short-hops. It's situational, but definitely usable, imo.

 

[Oh Snap]

new move...

 

[RedSnowman]

So really I don't use her grabs and throws much... because weeg is so sliddy that between me being pushed back and him as well I can't shield grab much. I'm looking forward to the discussion in this thread because I want to see what others think about her grabs. As far as I know it seems like Zelda has a really slow grab time so of the time I would rather dash/smash than grab.

 

[Oh Snap]

I use her grab often and if I miss...I get punished...bad.

 

[GodAtHand]

I use her grabs quite a bit actually. I find that since it is so slow sometimes when people spotdodge a little late it still grabs them. Jab to grab usually works at lower and mid percentages and I use that a lot. Other wise just throw it in once in a while instead of a dash attack and it will make people think twice about just blocking, which in theory will make them spotdodge which makes them Upsmash bait.

Zelda's forward throw is the most damaging, Her backthrow has the best knockback and can kill at very high percents (Like 150 I think). And her downthrow is the best one to chase people, I find I can sometimes get in a back air or you can running upsmash. The fun thing about running upsmash after downthrow is that after you do it once people will try to airdodge it, so if you just keep running without attacking you can still hit them once they are done airdodging.

uhh.... her grab attacks does really good damage and you can usually get in one every time you grab.

Thats all I got. Oh yah, and you can grab metaknights dash attack.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Never use grabs except for a mindgame.

Zelda's grab has the startup lag of a tether without the actual range.

If she had some kind of outstanding throw, (cough, ness), I'd say be all over it. I kind of like her running grab's range, but it's just too freaking slow.

 

[-Mars-]

I like the fact that people are always shielding when you run at them due to her multi hit smashes.

Swastika is right, your not going to land many grabs as Zelda. Her grab game is strictly limited to out-thinking your opponent.

Her shield grab is even kinda bad.

 

[Villi]

Her grab isn't so bad. It's still her most reliable way of aggressing against a shield...

If you can read your opponent well enough, down throw can often lead to a follow up. Fthrow can lead to dair spike gimps and if they're wise to that, you can just let them double jump air dodge into an upsmash. Backthrow kills if it's DI'd badly.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda's throws are.... meh. too powerful and slow for reliable follow up and too weak to kill. Fthrow is nearly useless most of the time. Bthrow at least has SOME power, dthrow CAN lead to follow ups if they are stupid and uthrow puts them above you which is a bad place for them... but none of them are great.

and her grab just sucks. it's got good range, not great but good. but it's SOOOOO FREAKING SLOW. it's not even amazing OoS because so much can hit her before she can grab. -_-. and her dash grab is even worse.... it's just sad.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Her grab attack is really slow, so It's really hard to use it for damage build up. 2/10

Her Fthrow is pretty decent. Nice knockback at high percentages. Damage is alright. But no follow-up. 6.8/10

Her Bthrow is better for killing than Fgrab, but her grabs in general aren't take good. Better follow-up on low percentages, but the knockback seems to esclate pretty quickly, so comboing this is null in mid-percents. 6.9/10

Her Dthrow is below average. Nothing special. 5.2/10

Her Uthrow is alright, but I never really use it unless I want the enemy to get up on the second platforms. Good for positioning, but that's about it. 5.9/10

 

[-Mars-]

Her dthrow is her best throw, don't know why you would rate it as the lowest.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you can't follow it up half as well as people like to think. But I still prefer it over Fthrow or Uthrow

 

[Bandit]

If anyone actually knows how to DI her down throw, you will never ever follow it up. Most people don't know how to and it usually can be followed up with a nair if they screw up, but you never can rely on people to screw up. My training partner figured out how to DI it the first night I started using Zelda. It doesn't take too much thought.

The only time this is good is I have fooled him (because he knows the DI) into killing himself, basically, with back throw.

I should put it on note I only grab when people just hide in shield. I will never dash grab unless they hide in shield as I approach. Also, I will never risk a grab just to "change it up" because I will be punished 9 times out of 10. There is almost always a better option than grab.

 

[Villi]

Dthrow is tricky to follow up on, which makes succeeding in a follow up less certain. You're not gonna land a lightning kick or up air against anyone worth their salt, but it lets you go into guess and check mode which can pay off.

Do they DI away from me and try to punish with an attack?

Do they DI the other way and go straight up?

Do they not DI at all?

Do they air dodge immediately?

Do they try to double jump to safety?

Depending on who you're fighting and where you are on the stage, some responses are more likely than others and some solutions are more applicable. It helps you get to know eachother.

Edit:

The only time this is good is I have fooled him (because he knows the DI) into killing himself, basically, with back throw.

Hah! I never thought of that.

 

[Bandit]

Hah! I never thought of that.

Haha, yeah, if they get to DI'ing the down throw correctly, just use a back throw near the ledge and they are caught DI'ing completely wrong. The worst thing that could happen is they don't die and you have them off the ledge (I feel a dins coming...)

 

[Oh Snap]

Dthrow isn't that good; it just looks flashy. Like Villi said, it's all about reading your opponent.

Does anyone ever Uthrow? I think you can Uthrow+dmash on the lower level of Luigi's Mansion.

 

[GodAtHand]

I upthrow at very low percents if there is a platform above me, its the only time I use it because I will usually get an upsmash on them after, otherwise no.

 

[Kaffei]

I upthrow at very low percents if there is a platform above me, its the only time I use it because I will usually get an upsmash on them after, otherwise no.

I never upthrow without a platform above me, especially against characters with dairs like Marth or Ganondorf.
Quite punishable, IMO.

I'd say Back throw or Down throw are the more reliable options.. The others are...wad.

 

[-Mars-]

Most characters don't want to be above Zelda........uthrow certainly has it's uses.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Bthrow>Dthrow>Uthrow>Fthrow is generally the case... but her throws are still worse than the average set especially considering the awful suck that is her grab and her pummel

 

[SinkingHigher]

Random question.

Does anyone else find it ridiculously difficult to grab someone with Sheik/Zelda compared to, say, Captain Falcon?

 

[GodAtHand]

I am grab-happy with Sheik, she is so fast its wicked easy to get in and the grab off in time. Less so with Zelda but I am a firm believer that Zelda's grabs have there uses, especially as the occasional surprise.

Now just about any character has an easier time grabbing than Zelda, besides maybe Jigglypuff...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I grab more with jiggly. it helps that jiglly doesn't have as much lag and has more useful throws.

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik lands grabs in her sleep, she can even combo into them.

It's really weird transitionng between the two characters because I grab a lot when i'm Sheik, but when I switch to Zelda I have to cut down on the grab attempts.

The nice thing about Zelda though is the fact that most people won't risk spotdodging up close due to her multi-hit smashes.

Her throws also do great damage, if you get a pummel in that's like 13%(iirc that's her weakest throw).

Zelda can also do some nice things off of her grab release. You can always grab them again. Better yet, I like to walk into an fsmash or walk and start dtilting their shield.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I uthrow and try to chase with Uairs when appropriate.

Zelda's slow grab is still a major cockblock. Her throws are not that strong of a send, either. Too far to really make a reliable follow up with Zelda, but also nowhere near far enough to be used for KOs at reasonable %s. The only real uses you will get out of them are decent damage (silly DDD and his insane bthrow) and stage placement.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I uthrow and try to chase with Uairs when appropriate.

Zelda's slow grab is still a major cockblock. Her throws are not that strong of a send, either. Too far to really make a reliable follow up with Zelda, but also nowhere near far enough to be used for KOs at reasonable %s. The only real uses you will get out of them are decent damage (silly DDD and his insane bthrow) and stage placement.

well that just about hits the nail square on the head

/discussion

 

[Oh Snap]

I use Shiek's grab a lot cuz it's fast, but I don't think you can reliably follow up even at low %s.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If you manage to grab opponent at the very beginning of the stock, F-throw could maybe lead into followup with U-smash, another throw, Nair or Fair...

Also, although it´s not Zelda specific and everybody knows it already, but grabbing at the same time enemy hits you prevents flinching and let´s you keep the grab. It´s pretty risky, but I use that sometimes if I want to get past Marths F-smash or something like that...

 

[Oh Snap]

Hey guys! Sorry for not updating yet...

...but just to let y'all know, Zelda can ledgegrab!

 

[Villi]

Whut you mean "ledgegrab"?

 

[Oh Snap]

Woops, I meant edge grab.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207554

You did it in the vid you just posted on the other thread when Marth was on the edge. Or maybe you just caught him when he was just ledge jumping?
EDIT: Yeah you just caught him when he was ledge jumping...

 

[Villi]

She can grab DK and Charizard's heads while they hang from the ledge. lol