[Week 12] Zelda's Moveset Discussion: Down B (Transform)

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

unless, of course, you can sneak in some better move at that point... like a Utilt!

 

[MRTW113]

Aside from the Mother boys or G&W and maybe a few others, Din's forces people to come to you, instead of you using Zelda's bad approach. It's just bad when people get to you before you pop the fireball, and get free hits in. Of course it isn't great., and anyone better than a novice can dodge Din's, but IMO its best use is for mindgames, as it's pretty flashy and intimidating when it grows huge.

 

[Kaffei]

Zelda's MOST useful move, of course, is Down+B. but as her only projectile, din's DOES have its uses and it CAN force approaches.

it's just not exceptional like many noobs believe

Indeed, it's not exceptional. Just spamming it while your opponent is grounded isn't as easy as it seems.

Look at this example.

_Z_________________M__
Z is Zelda, & M is Marth. They are both near the edge of the stage.
As most of you know, Marth has a fast run speed.
There are instances where while Zelda casts Din's, Marth can react fast enough to get to Zelda before she explodes her flame.

That's one weakness, but a slim one nonetheless. I have found that vs. fast characters, it's MUCH harder to hit them with Din's. < Kind of obvious though. =.=

 

[Kaffei]

Aside from the Mother boys or G&W and maybe a few others, Din's forces people to come to you, instead of you using Zelda's bad approach. It's just bad when people get to you before you pop the fireball, and get free hits in. Of course it isn't great., and anyone better than a novice can dodge Din's, but IMO its best use is for mindgames, as it's pretty flashy and intimidating when it grows huge.

Surprisingly, jumping around with B-air can be used as an approach too, but that takes practice. It's not enough to just stay in one place & spam B-air, or charge at the opponent while B-airing. You have to be quit smart with it. It's more like a counter approach, in other words.

Believe it or not, a fellow Marth Player & I were brawling, & I used that to get to him sometimes if he was too close for Din's.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

unless, of course, you can sneak in some better move at that point... like a Utilt!

This is if your opponent has been knocked far away and is recovering from a distance from you.

Seriously, this should be obvious. Why do I have to explain this?

 

[Oh Snap]

You have to be pro to spam Dins' effectively XD

Indeed, it's not exceptional. Just spamming it while your opponent is grounded isn't as easy as it seems.

Look at this example.

_Z_________________M__
Z is Zelda, & M is Marth. They are both near the edge of the stage.
As most of you know, Marth has a fast run speed.
There are instances where while Zelda casts Din's, Marth can react fast enough to get to Zelda before she explodes her flame.

That's one weakness, but a slim one nonetheless. I have found that vs. fast characters, it's MUCH harder to hit them with Din's. < Kind of obvious though. =.=

I think they have a guide to dealing with Din's in the matchup thread on the Marth boards lol.
Din's shouldn't be too hard to get through...he could chop thru it with a f-air if the zelda doesn't release the blast in time.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

A big part of using din's is knowing your enemy's hitboxes.

For example, if Ike approaches with nair, every part of him except the back of his head will be covered by the nair hitbox. the entire nair hitbox will cancel out din's and will autocancel upon landing so he can get a sheild up to protect from din's if you are waiting for that to be an opening.

the only way you are going to hit him is to aim it perfectly so you hit his one exposed area.

 

[-Mars-]

If you have enough space, retreating Dins is pretty effective to avoid the chase, especially against faster characters.

Say a Marth knocks you away with a fsmash, cancel out your tumbling animation with Dins while mantaining your retreating DI. Prevents Marth from following up with a fair or anything else he has.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If you have enough space, retreating Dins is pretty effective to avoid the chase, especially against faster characters.

Say a Marth knocks you away with a fsmash, cancel out your tumbling animation with Dins while mantaining your retreating DI. Prevents Marth from following up with a fair or anything else he has.

I agree, this is good idea if you want to get away from a posible followup move safer than trying to challenge it. Sadly this can only be done with moves that have enough knockback.

Important when using Din is to know the opponent. If you're facing Mario for example, never use Din when near the edge, as he will F.L.U.D.D. you to death.

Same goes for using it as approach forcer. Once again, using Mario as an example. You're standing around the middle part of FD, he's in the side camping with fireballs. You use Din as it has longer reach. All Mario has to do is to start running towards you. He will either get close fast enough and attack you, or just protect himself with cape just out of your f-smash range, leaving you into disadvantageus position.

 

[sniperworm]

Most of the stuff about Din's has been covered because it's a move that most of us (at some point in our Zelda careers) have used quite liberally. I personally love Din's and still use a lot in most of my fights (my dedication to Din's is rather disturbing at times).

Here's some things that I've learned that haven't been mentioned yet (I think...).

If you mix up standing, SH, and full hop Din's (with forward and backward gliding and mixing up the height where you use Din's) with Naryu's, you can often pester characters that can "outcamp" Zelda with projectiles by avoiding their projectiles while threatening them with yours. It's important to remember that most projectiles are linear in nature and therefore can be avoided while still using Din's Fire (since Din's Fire has lots of control).

When I want to approach for a kill against characters with projectiles that can outcamp Zelda, I often using a SH Din's glide to intentionally get hit by their projectile very soon after Din's leaves Zelda's hand. By angling Din's near their feet with this technique, you can then proceed to approach them with the fireball still traveling towards them to help cover your approach (obviously you can't be too far away or this won't work because of Zelda's poor movement speed). Din's Fire adds lots of extra pressure to your approach when they're at kill percents and taking the hit would mean that they're launched high in the air. I find that this works especially well against opponent's that tend to look at you instead of themselves because it forces them to focus on themselves for a short while (which is something they're not used to) so they can avoid Din's Fire.

You have to be pro to spam Dins' effectively XD

Indeed, effectively using Din's is much more difficult then most other mains give us credit for.

 

[Kaffei]

Most of the stuff about Din's has been covered because it's a move that most of us (at some point in our Zelda careers) have used quite liberally. I personally love Din's and still use a lot in most of my fights (my dedication to Din's is rather disturbing at times).

Here's some things that I've learned that haven't been mentioned yet (I think...).

If you mix up standing, SH, and full hop Din's (with forward and backward gliding and mixing up the height where you use Din's) with Naryu's, you can often pester characters that can "outcamp" Zelda with projectiles by avoiding their projectiles while threatening them with yours. It's important to remember that most projectiles are linear in nature and therefore can be avoided while still using Din's Fire (since Din's Fire has lots of control).

When I want to approach for a kill against characters with projectiles that can outcamp Zelda, I often using a SH Din's glide to intentionally get hit by their projectile very soon after Din's leaves Zelda's hand. By angling Din's near their feet with this technique, you can then proceed to approach them with the fireball still traveling towards them to help cover your approach (obviously you can't be too far away or this won't work because of Zelda's poor movement speed). Din's Fire adds lots of extra pressure to your approach when they're at kill percents and taking the hit would mean that they're launched high in the air. I find that this works especially well against opponent's that tend to look at you instead of themselves because it forces them to focus on themselves for a short while (which is something they're not used to) so they can avoid Din's Fire.



Indeed, effectively using Din's is much more difficult then most other mains give us credit for.

I hate using Din's during a laggy wifi Match. It screws me up. T-T

 

[Oh Snap]

It can also screw up your opponents air dodging time, which may lead to a Din's Fire KO...

...and that is rare. I haven't KO'd someone with Din's in a while

 

[Kaffei]

It can also screw up your opponents air dodging time, which may lead to a Din's Fire KO...

...and that is rare. I haven't KO'd someone with Din's in a while

lolol.

I KOed my friend's D3 on Sunday with it. @______@

 

[Brinzy]

I only KO with it against gliders and Snake players that like to go super high.

 

[Villi]

While someone is trying to recover, I can hit them like 4 or 5 times until they die off the top. </pro>

 

[Oh Snap]

^On Wifi Basic Brawl/Team Battle? xD

 

[Kaffei]

While someone is trying to recover, I can hit them like 4 or 5 times until they die off the top. </pro>

Unless the person is a really good Air dodger. T-T

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

forgot a very useful way to land LKs:

-(standing on edge) non-powersheild-> LK

the sheildpush knocks you off the edge of the stage and pretty much anything the foe threw at you will leave them prone long enough to sweetspot them with your instant aerial.

if you feel like adding that to the OP to the rest of my post, feel free ^_^

 

[-Mars-]

forgot a very useful way to land LKs:

-(standing on edge) non-powersheild-> LK

the sheildpush knocks you off the edge of the stage and pretty much anything the foe threw at you will leave them prone long enough to sweetspot them with your instant aerial.

if you feel like adding that to the OP to the rest of my post, feel free ^_^

I do this all the time and I love it. I also jump off the side of the stage right as they're performing their get up attack/stand up/roll onto the stage and bair them.........it sweetspots an awful lot.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah. I do that to, but I think that's already on my list

 

[Villi]

Em, random info about Din's is that it sends away at a 67.5* angle away from the way you're facing. It can be DI'd to just over 45* all the way to 90*. It also causes longer hit-stun than your cooldown. If you're ever so bold as to jump into someone with Din's and you connect, you just earned yourself a possible aerial follow-up.

This would explain why Din's stage spikes are so rare. It takes some freaky DI to get yourself stage spiked by Din's. You have to be under FD's lip or smash DI into the stage (I think) for it to happen. It also explains why it's dumb to Din's someone recovering low, because chances are they're going to be sent straight upward by default.

Any attack that does more than 6% damage will always neutralize Din's.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It also causes longer hit-stun than your cooldown. If you're ever so bold as to jump into someone with Din's and you connect, you just earned yourself a possible aerial follow-up....

... It also explains why it's dumb to Din's someone recovering low

hmm... combine those two things and you don't have a bad situation.

hit someone recovering low, they pop up, stunned, right at your height off the edge. I've scored aerials by this a few times.

 

[Oh Snap]

New move...have fun!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

this is one of my underused moves. it's a nice alternative to fsmash since it has virtually the same range. It's a little faster but weaker.... but, then again, at lower damages, it leads to follow ups.

Rarely is this move the best option, but don't forget about it, it's not a bad move and it actually can kill at high enough damages if fresh.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I can't remember the last time I killed with Ftilt... but like Hedgedawg said, it's faster so it does have applications, aka the opponent is pre-timed to block an fsmash so they eat an ftilt instead. ^ ^

 

[Villi]

Ftilt has virtually the same duration as fsmash. The hitbox comes out quicker but doesn't last nearly as long so it's a pretty situational move. It has 3 hitboxes causing 11, 12, 13% damage starting from closest to her to farthest away. 11 & 12% hitboxes send horizontally away from her (like jab and nair with better knockback) and 13% hits at a steep angle behind her.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Mystic swipe? Really?

It sounds like the next Swiffer.

 

[Oh Snap]

I never try to kill with a F-tilt. A decayed U-smash is better, but I think F-tilt kills around the percentages of U-tilt plus 10% (this needs testing).

 

[Villi]

Up tilt tends to kill earlier than up smash. Earlier still if it's DI'd incorrectly, but much later if it's DI'd correctly.

 

[-Mars-]

iirc, Zelda has the most powerful utilt in the game besides Ganons'.

 

[PK-ow!]

If a lightweight screws up an approach, I hit them with this (unless I can charge Dsmash or go to edgeguarding). Good setups, as said, while dequeuing a slot in stale moves.

And it does get pretty close to star K.O. against Kirby kind of lightness. So I suppose you can use it against people with bad dairs to set up for uairs. . . not what I do though.

This move is great. Situationally at. . .70-90%, I think (well basically, just before Fsmash is actually a threat), angle it low against heavyweights who give you the time - if, for some reason, you don't want to get into a dtilt. I can't quite say the times I don't like to dtilt, but they come up, and I just use this.

Don't let this move get shieldgrabbed, obviously - Fsmash is way better. This is not a poke, it's something you pull out when you have a choice but Fsmash isn't the one. A powerful, damaging hit that sends them in an uncommon direction (above and behind you) - yeah, pretty much for reasons of staying on top of stale moves - remember that it's there.

Stale moves is pretty big for Zeldas, eh? Set uses for her attacks, but she's got redundancies, so you gotta remember to use them, and that could mean the difference in K.O.ing first.

 

[SinkingHigher]

iirc, Zelda has the most powerful utilt in the game besides Ganons'.

Snake's crotch slap is killer.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Snake's crotch slap is killer.

Zelda's is still stronger. it's just harder to hit with

 

[SinkingHigher]

Zelda's is still stronger. it's just harder to hit with

Really? Wow. I guess it's because ive never been hit with crotchslap below 150%. :/

Z's U-tilt is actually somewhat easy to land. Much more so than f-tilt imo. d-tilt, u-smash and din glides all set up quite nicely. Sometimes it's just a matter of predicting a d-air.

 

[-Mars-]

Really? Wow. I guess it's because ive never been hit with crotchslap below 150%. :/

Z's U-tilt is actually somewhat easy to land. Much more so than f-tilt imo. d-tilt, u-smash and din glides all set up quite nicely. Sometimes it's just a matter of predicting a d-air.

Nobody is ever going to dair Zelda.......when they're in the air they never come down on top of Zelda...that's suicide. Ftilt is much easier to land due to its speed and range while utilt has to be setup like you mentioned

Does anyone know how good ftilt's priority is? I'm sure it's pretty good.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I know it almost never clashes with other moves, so it has to be pretty good...

Also it works well when trying to challenge other move instead of punishing them after shield/dodge.

 

[RedSnowman]

It is a nice move but the one thing I really dislike about her ftilt is it is a lot more punishable, in some ways than her forward smash. If they are close enough to be ftilt'd and they spotdodge then smash you, or they can roll behind you and jab then dsmash. If they powershield it you get punished.

The fsmash is a little longer and I make full use of it's potential. If they try to roll around that they normally get the last hit closest to my body and it protects me. It's multi-hit so powershielding isn't a problem and spot dodging it is a little harder. Plus if they spot dodge it they might be too far away to punish you right after.

So in summation, I like the ftilt... but I like Zelda's fsmash more. Everything that the ftilt does I feel like her fsmash does better, especially in a defensive minded game where spacing is key. It's kinda useful in the sense that I don't use her ftilt often so if I do throw out one, whether on purpose or accident, and it lands it can be a KO move.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

ftilt, in my opinion, is a waste of a move slot. The knockback, speed, and damage is nothing special and her dtilt is pretty much always a better option.

 

[Oh Snap]

^Her upB is kinda a waste aswell. Sure, it has a hitbox after reappearance, but it can be easily gimped...

I've been using f-tilt a bit more...and it's actually not that bad. It just sucks when your opponent manages to shield it.
F-tilt is a substitute (not really) for fsmash if you don't wanna make fmash stale. Like you said, ftilt doesn't have have amazing KO power. I think it starts killing around 120-130%, 3 hitbox frames(?), and it has too much lag x_x

 

[-Mars-]

ftilt, in my opinion, is a waste of a move slot. The knockback, speed, and damage is nothing special and her dtilt is pretty much always a better option.

I'll take a move with that much range any day.