[Week 12] Zelda's Moveset Discussion: Down B (Transform)

[Oh Snap]

Originally I wasn't gonna make this move a discussion until the last one but someone asked about it soooo.

 

[Villi]

I use this move a lot? It changes Zelda to Sheik. And... it helps me with Zelda's difficult matchups.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

okay. so it's maybe a little dated, but I REALLY don't feel like writing this much again:

Zelda and Shiek are perhaps some of the most interesting characters ever to grace the world of super smash bros. Both competent characters in their own rites, they are connected by the use of their down+B special.
Shiek is a beautiful river of attacks... he flows from one attack to the next as if by a coreographed dance. And if you know your attacks well enough, shiek is capable of stringing together some beautiful combos. Shiek is also capable of tilt locking most charcters for some easy damage. Combine this with the fact that the speed of shiek's attacks allows him to wrack up damage with incedible efficiency and you have quite a frightening foe. However, shiek lacks range and priority allong with strength; shiek has very few KO options that don't involve gimping or edgeguarding the opponent...
Zelda, on the other hand, is a beast. EVERY attack in her repetior is a meaty hit. They might not be fast (though some are) but they all have good priority and range as well as quite a kick to them. She has no shortage of KO options, but she lacks the ability to combo well to build up damage as well as reliable agility to approach or edgeguard most characters.
That's where the beauty of Down+B comes in. This special allows Zelda, or shiek to transform from one charcter to the other. While the transformation is slow, there are multiple strategies to switch between charcters effectively. Doing so has the implications of making you harder to counterpick as well as being able to combine the two character's strength into one amazing character.
This brings me to my point... How do YOU use Zelda and Shiek? Here are a few possibilities I've seen... along with my clever names for them

TYPE I
"Shiek"
this is probably the most commonly used way to play the Zelda + Shiek character... and this is to use shiek alone and completely neglect the existance of the Down+B technique. Shiek users rely on shiek's combo game to combo into one of his few kill moves, shiek's speed to punish enemy lag with a kill move or shiek's off the edge game to get an edgeguarding KO.

TYPE II
"Zelda"
This is probably the second most common way to use the charcter, and is the most common way on this particular subforum. And this way is to use Zelda straight up with absolutely no shiek. Zelda users rely on Zelda's impressive range and priority in conjunction with din's fire to try to bypass the need of approaching. Instead they try to play a defensive game or try to outprioritize their enemy's attacks by going offensive. Whatever their decision, to be agressive, defensive or balanced, Zelda users rely on Zelda's immense power, priority and range to wrack up damage on oponents before they have a chance to wrack damage up on her and then kill with any of her moves that are still relatively fresh... because she has so MANY KO options, decaying her attacks is not normally a huge issue.

TYPE III
"Either Or"
This playstyle is not really any different than the above two. Essentially, an "Either Or" Zelda/Shiek user will play either Zelda OR Shiek depending on which matchup is more favourable, but will not switch midmatch. Users employing this particular style of gameplay gain the benefit of being much harder to counterpick without the difficulty of coordinating midmatch transforms... but they also are not afforded the benefits that come with doing so. Regardless, this style is far superior to the two above it.

TYPE IV
"Sparkly Artillery"
This is probabaly the most commonly used style of "dual maining" Zelda and Shiek. The Sparkly Artillery playstyle is essentially the aknowledgement of a shiek user that shiek is severly lacking in KO options, and that zelda has many. As a result, shiek mains will often pull out Zelda to KO oponents that are hard to edgeguard once they reach a satisfactory damage to be KOd by a completely fresh Zelda. Assuming it's practical, employers of this style will transform back to shiek immediately after KOing an opponent to restart the cycle... the beauty of this style is that mastery with Zelda is not necessary most of the time with this style, only a passable understaning.

TYPE V
"Rough 'em Up"
This style is essentially the Zelda mainer's response to "Sparkly Artillery". In this style, The player will start as Shiek, aknowledging that shiek has superior damage wracking capabilities. However, rather than waiting until Shiek has wracked up sufficient damage for a KO before transforming, a user of the "Rough 'em Up" style will tranform to Zelda the moment the opportunity presents itself (assuming SOME damage, at least, has been done). Because you will be playing at length with both characters, it is highly advised to be well practiced with both charcters to employ this style, making it more difficult to master than "Sparkly Artillery"... However, it is more friendly to users who have a good base in Zelda. The benefit to this style is that it essentially allows Zelda to start in at a point where her foe has some damage on them and she has no move decay.

TYPE VI
"Trump Card"
This is a very rarely seen style for it has few applications that I have yet seen. Essentially in "Trump Card," the player will start out as Zelda and switch to Shiek once the opportunity arises. This style is kind of wonky in that it's ZELDA who will be wracking up damage and SHIEK who will be KOing... but a completely fresh shiek fighting a highly damaged enemy who can be edgeguarded IS a frightening prospect... it's just not normally the BEST possible option. I'm not sure I've EVER seen this style used in practical gameplay... but that is not to say that it CAN'T be used effectively.

TYPE VII
"Freshness Guaranteed"
Because they are two completely different characters, nothing that Zelda does can decay the moves that shiek has, and vice versa. Due to this fact, quite often, Zelda/Shiek users will transform from one form to the other either as soon as a good opportunity presents itself or as soon as they can after being out for a respectable amount of time. They do this to gain a completely refreshed moveset midway through a brawl. While it may be tough to find an opening to do this, the implications of it are quite profound. Essentially, if you are patient enough, you get to fight as an offensively fresh character LONG into triple digit damage. As long as the user is capable with Shiek AND Zelda... using this playstyle produces HUGE benefits offensively. This style normally starts with the user as shiek since shiek is more ideal for wracking damage early and the foe should be teed up for a kill by the time Zelda gets brought out.... exactly how long each charcter gets left out can vary by matchup.

TYPE VIII
"Tag Team"
there are no major considerations to think about on this style. it's implications are nearly identical to "Freshness Guarunteed." The difference is that the Zelda/Shiek user will only switch after a KO. Since KOs and the resulting invincibility tend to be momentum shifters anyway, there is no worry about losing momentum by transforming. More adventurous tag teamers might transform at other times... but only when transformation does not take anything away from their momentum. This style sacrifices some of the versatility of "Freshness Guarunteed" for safety and ease of use... but, once again, requires complete competence in both characters.


TYPE IX
"Retreat To The Fortress!!!"
This is the first defensive dual maining strategy we'll see. In this style, the user will play as shiek and then switch to Zelda once their OWN damage gets past a certain point, with no consideration to enemy damage%. Zelda is a bit sturdier than Shiek and, with her massive priority and range, Zelda can be QUITE difficult to get inside and land a KO on. This style has the disadvantage of being very predictable (i.e. when you turn to Zelda, you WILL be playing a defensive game).. however, if your oponent has trouble getting inside of you, it has the benefit of stallng your death and wracking up a lot of free damage, and possibly a KO on your oponent before he can take you out.

TYPE X
"RUN AWAY!!!!!"
This is the complete opposite of the above style. Shiek is much faster than zelda and shiek's needles can help keep many enemies away. Also, there are a few characters, such as Ike, who legitimately have a harder time approaching shiek than they do Zelda. Essentially, in this style, Zelda will switch to shiek once she gets in danger of being KOd and will run away as long as possible with the intent of stalling, wracking up a bit of damage and decaying your oponent's moves. Compared to the above style, this style seems to fall short. Shiek does not have zelda's ability to KO while on defensive and is a bit less sturdy to begin with. That having been said, on certain stages, shiek can probably use stalling quite strategically and possibly run down the clock..

TYPE XI
"THIS ISN'T WORKING"
think of this style like the "accidental" dual main. Essentially someone will use this style when they are compitent with Zelda and Shiek and whichever character they are using is getting owned hard core... you can think of this option as "saving face" or "damage control"... the player may even be willing to eat whatever comes after the transform to eschew the horrible beating they WERE taking with the other charcter.

TYPE ???
"Perfect Tandem"
What is this style? Who knows. No one at this point has discovered it, and it likely varries from matchup to matchup. Regardless, this style asks for one thing: perfection. This style uses switching in the most advantageous and strategic possible ways to make use of both Shiek's strengths on a given charcter AND Zelda's strengths on the same charcter.... Ideally we ALL want to shoot for this, but none have yet achieved it.






so... what type are you? I see myself as a combination between a Type V and a Type VII personally.

 

[Villi]

Cool post, Sonic.

I tend to use Sheik as a damage racker because she tends to be able to approach much more effectively than Zelda can. Sheik can also potentially kill sooner than even Zelda can with a decayed-ftilt to up smash set up or an edge guard. Generally, the time I wait to transform is after Sheik's ftilt to up smash window has passed, which is when all of Zelda's kill moves begin to become effective.

Some matchups, I'll favor one character over the other or have a special combination in mind based on my knowledge of the matchup. Sheik for Ike, Lucas, and Olimar; Zelda for Luigi, ROB, and Ice Climbers; Zelda/Sheik/Zelda to avoid Falco and Pikchu's chain grabs; Sheik/Zelda for everyone else.

If Sheik doesn't seem to be cutting it, I will stick with Zelda as soon as I get a chance to transform. This happens with some Marths, Kirbys, Peaches, and Lucarios. Conversely, if I am having an inordinately hard time trying to kill as Zelda, I'll stop transforming into her to get my kills. This sometimes happens with Snake, Sonic, Wolf, and Samus.

Oyah, sometimes I'll stay Zelda if I'm at a high percent and didn't get a star kill and I just want to rack up some damage by being defensive before I die.

 

[RedSnowman]

The only time I really use downb is when I absolutely cannot find my grove as Zelda. I've played around with damage racking with Sheik and KO'ing with Zelda but really Shiek isn't my style. Downb seems much less punishable for Zelda than it is for pokemon trainer (Zelda has so many get the **** away smashes, one good dsmash gives you enough time to transform). That's one plus for it. It's cool if people use it and it makes them better but I prefer not to.

 

[Villi]

Sheik's down b has a property that's similar to the love jump. If you are knocked away and jump + down b (with SHEIK) during your launch momentum, you'll gain a lot of height as you transform. I feel relatively safe when I do it since I'm free to air dodge by the time I'm at attacking height, and going off screen from the top tends to confuse people because it takes you much longer to fall than they expect.

This doesn't work well as Zelda, but whatever, I usually transform or not after a KO with her.

 

[-Mars-]

Like Villi mentioned, this new decayed ftilt stuff i've learned with Sheik means that she doesn't have problems killing as was initially thought. I generally don't switch to Zelda for kills anymore unless the window for Sheiks tipper has passed. Lol, in fact Villi pretty much posted everything I was going to say about my specific transform strategies.

I have no clue who to use with Lucario though, I usually give them both a shot and try to decipher which one my opponent is worst at. I honestly have more problems vs. Lucario than any other character in the game.......I personally feel he is worse than G&W.

I also won't play defensive oriented characters(campers) like Falco, Wolf, Toon Link, Pit, Olimar with Zelda.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I think Transformation Jumps and Transformation Glides are seriously underrated.

Whenever I transform it's usually because I've been having some trouble out-strategizing a certain character or player. By the time I've realised this I'm already at about 50%+. I tend not to change for the kill, so I need a way to [airquotes]safely[/airquotes] transform during attack.

Sheik's Transformation jump is ridiculously fast, and can be used to escape certain combos, jabs or multi-hitters. Iirc, I have never been caught while doing a transformation jump. With fast characters, or those with good aerials, I just do it after a large blow and the entire transformation takes place while I'm in the danger bubble.

Zelda's transformation glide is a little harder to use, but I've found it to be quite useful at times as well.

For example, you can do it while in the danger bubble so that as soon as you're Sheik, you're able to grab the ledge. Perfect for f-air >> f-tilt lock.

Otherwise, it's a good method of escaping from characters like DK or Bowser. Say, for example, gliding from the upper section of Temple to the lower section, or from the right platform of Battlefield to the left one. It's definitely risky business on stage, so I would only use it when recovering. Otherwise, just lightning kick the *******s and transform.

 

[sniperworm]

In the melee to brawl transition, Zelda's DownB probably ended up being the most nerfed move in the game (since before it changed you from bottom to top tier).

But on to a more serious note, I'm surprised how many people don't know that Zelda/Sheik maintain their invincibility if you transform right when you respawn (it's kind of insulting, actually).

I don't have any special tricks that I use to transform, but I've transformed while I was in the offstage bubble thing and I must say that it works really well if you're desperate to switch.

I have to admit that I've never really felt like Sheik lacked kill power, I guess my opponent's tend to die at higher percents but Sheik is really good at pressuring and racking damage so I really haven't noticed. But I definitely must try this decayed Ftilt to Usmash thing, is there a thread about it in the Sheik forums? When is this "window" that you speak of?

 

[-Mars-]

In the melee to brawl transition, Zelda's DownB probably ended up being the most nerfed move in the game (since before it changed you from bottom to top tier).

But on to a more serious note, I'm surprised how many people don't know that Zelda/Sheik maintain their invincibility if you transform right when you respawn (it's kind of insulting, actually).

I don't have any special tricks that I use to transform, but I've transformed while I was in the offstage bubble thing and I must say that it works really well if you're desperate to switch.

I have to admit that I've never really felt like Sheik lacked kill power, I guess my opponent's tend to die at higher percents but Sheik is really good at pressuring and racking damage so I really haven't noticed. But I definitely must try this decayed Ftilt to Usmash thing, is there a thread about it in the Sheik forums? When is this "window" that you speak of?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199888

Link to the thread.

Basically it's just basing your whole game around ftilt and using it whenever you get the chance. The knockback will be so diminished that on every character, there is a point at which one ftilt leads into the tipper at kill percentages.

If you have any more questions let me know.

 

[Villi]

I have to admit that I've never really felt like Sheik lacked kill power, I guess my opponent's tend to die at higher percents but Sheik is really good at pressuring and racking damage so I really haven't noticed. But I definitely must try this decayed Ftilt to Usmash thing, is there a thread about it in the Sheik forums? When is this "window" that you speak of?

There's a thread by Tristan Win that lists up smash kill percents on every character. I'm kinda lazy, but the window is ideally at and 15-20% above that depending on how decayed your ftilt is -- there are a few factors that determine how much ftilt needs to be decayed to get them positioned right in your tipper. But you should be able to use your intuition by watching the knockback change. There are two hitboxes -- the foot will knock them at a diagonal angle up and behind you and the thigh will knock them vertically. It's more difficult for them to DI if you're closer, but both can work.

Here's a useful video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcAnHSlpXkU You can skip to 1:50 if you're not into watching Marth **** Sheik.

 

[DarkThundah]

But on to a more serious note, I'm surprised how many people don't know that Zelda/Sheik maintain their invincibility if you transform right when you respawn (it's kind of insulting, actually).

wow uhh... i did not know that. Thank you.

 

[M@v]

wow uhh... i did not know that. Thank you.

Yup. And if your opponent is stupid enough try to try to attack you, make them pay for it with an upsmash from zelda, or a upsmash from sheik.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Yup. And if your opponent is stupid enough try to try to attack you, make them pay for it with an upsmash from zelda, or a upsmash from sheik.

Can't tell you how many times I've enjoyed getting kills like that. It's hysterical!

I never knew that invincibility was maintained when respwaning and transforming immediately. I thought it did, but I was never sure.

The transform jump is definitely useful to go from Sheik to Zelda and vice versa (though definitely not as often), personally, I feel it to be a very underrated way of transforming and getting out of a bad situation as SinkingHigher put it, though I only use it when it's absolutely certain I can't get followed up there. I actually got taken out by it a few times by my friend who had the timing down and was Falco at Battlefield. He chased me right off the screen lol.

 

[-Mars-]

I've seen even experienced players forget that the invincibility frames carry over during transform right when you respawn. In a little while though this won't even be a factor as more and more Sheik/Zelda players are seen.

 

[DarkThundah]

Yeah so I was online the other day and I tried some of those respawn>transform>up Smashes. They work quite beautifully. But people seem to learn quickly but I was surprised that zero of the people I faced knew about it. I'd transform, snake would charge fsmash, and then die from usmash.

But to contribute somewhat to this move discussion, I'm not sure if this has been posted yet ( yeah I searched), but in the event that a snake sticks a c4 to Zelda (or Sheik), she can transform and it will fall right off works for Samus and pkmn trainer aswell.