C~Dog
Smash Champion
I hope this is gonig to be updated before DC2 >_>
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[VIC] Brawl Power Rankings (VERSION TEN) Updated LAST YEAR LOL
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ViVa
Smash Ace
Wasn't this going to be updated ages ago? xD
Timic83
Smash Ace
very nice pr, a bit picky on tosh being so high tho... 
Redact
Professional Nice Guy
pretty sure toshi pioneered the technique known as "winning" these days
Timic83
Smash Ace
but i reckon i beat toshi a lot still...
maybe cos i vs him so much
maybe cos i vs him so much
Surgi
Smash Journeyman
Tosh meister, What a gun man totally deserves it. Dekar top? absolutely. Surgi not on the PR? now thats some bs right there Maybe if i actually practiced ever instead of just rocking up cold turkey. Dw guys imma break out the falco at Dont Come 2. ^^
Maybe if i actually practiced ever instead of just rocking up cold turkey. Dw guys imma break out the falco at Dont Come 2. ^^
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
bahaha so dave wins thriller, comes 2nd at rocky, dekar comes 5th or something at rocky and wins some random monthlies and he's suddenly 1st..
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Well it is a ranking of current skill.
TakFR
Smash Lord
Syke the way this PR works is that it is updated with the performance of each player every 3 months, Dekar has placed better on average in this 3 month time period leading up to this ranking update. I'm not getting into this who is better then who thing btw, just stating how these rankings are updated =)
Dekar289
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2007
- Messages
- 6,306
the criteria is:
Tournament performance - It's not only about how high a person placed, but rather who they defeated, who they lost to and the character selections they rely on. Rankings take into consideration a person's collective Singles performances over history and of recent times.
Consistency of Results - Self explanatory, but nonetheless I'll explain. If a person has done well or poorly in a singular tournament, it is not enough to warrant a major shift in their respective rank. On the other hand, a person who has continually produced similar results over many tournaments will be assessed accordingly.
Calibre of competition - It's great that you can win a local high school tournament, but if there's no good there, don't expect it to boost your ranking. Tournaments which have highly ranked or respected participants (from either local or out of state regions) will be given greater weight.
Tournament performance - It's not only about how high a person placed, but rather who they defeated, who they lost to and the character selections they rely on. Rankings take into consideration a person's collective Singles performances over history and of recent times.
Consistency of Results - Self explanatory, but nonetheless I'll explain. If a person has done well or poorly in a singular tournament, it is not enough to warrant a major shift in their respective rank. On the other hand, a person who has continually produced similar results over many tournaments will be assessed accordingly.
Calibre of competition - It's great that you can win a local high school tournament, but if there's no good there, don't expect it to boost your ranking. Tournaments which have highly ranked or respected participants (from either local or out of state regions) will be given greater weight.
Redact
Professional Nice Guy
pr is based on recent performance syke
the fact cao won thriller/placed well in earlier tournaments assured him of 2nd/1st, but due to his recent performance at the monthlies and the fact that dekar almost 4 socked cao on one of his counter picks (cao forfeited before it finished, dekar still had 4 stock) means that even if cao was having a "bad day" he shouldn't have lost 2 monthlies in a row, and it shouldn't change a win into a 4 stocking
dekar has only squeezed past cao tbh, this is more of an incentive for cao to start trying and stop johning losses
but he says he still wont try, bad johns imo
hes too old (8 past his prime eehuaheuaheuaheuh
the fact cao won thriller/placed well in earlier tournaments assured him of 2nd/1st, but due to his recent performance at the monthlies and the fact that dekar almost 4 socked cao on one of his counter picks (cao forfeited before it finished, dekar still had 4 stock) means that even if cao was having a "bad day" he shouldn't have lost 2 monthlies in a row, and it shouldn't change a win into a 4 stocking
dekar has only squeezed past cao tbh, this is more of an incentive for cao to start trying and stop johning losses
but he says he still wont try, bad johns imo
hes too old (8 past his prime eehuaheuaheuaheuh
This implies you're skewing data and judgements to make me try harder?
Fail.
Take me off the list, whatever you're trying to do to make me competitive is failing. The criteria has not been used properly (I created and standardized it), and I do not respect the reported methodology used by the current panelists. Remove my name or else I'll do it myself.
Dekar289
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2007
- Messages
- 6,306
i am above you because of the criteria.
the list wasn't made with any intentions to make anyone try harder or be more competitive or anything like that
if you want to be removed from the list because you think we're not using the criteria properly (and i assure you we are) then by all means remove yourself, none of us can edit the OP.
bit of an overreaction by cao and slightly poor choice of words by redact. if being #2 spurs you to be more competitive, great i guess, but the list was made only with the criteria in mind.
the list wasn't made with any intentions to make anyone try harder or be more competitive or anything like that
if you want to be removed from the list because you think we're not using the criteria properly (and i assure you we are) then by all means remove yourself, none of us can edit the OP.
bit of an overreaction by cao and slightly poor choice of words by redact. if being #2 spurs you to be more competitive, great i guess, but the list was made only with the criteria in mind.
Redact
Professional Nice Guy
you've read it wrong
"dekar has just squeezed past you to be honest
this is more of an incentive for you to start trying"
just rephrasing it
nowhere did i state that you would be on top of dekar, but i was hoping the fact you placed second instead of first would make you try, seems not so
you're just assuming things if you think we placed you lower to make you try
A little bit of respect would be nice, Cao...before you jump to conclusions and effectively illegitimize the PR by removing yourself from it, think: do you really think we got together and plotted to rank you below Dekar against our better judgement as a means to motivate you?
You were placed below Dekar because he's been beating you comfortably in recent tournaments, just as Toshi has recently been beating the many people he's passed since the last PR. We'd all like to see your competitive interest in the game at local tournaments reinvigorated, but we certainly wouldn't sacrifice the integrity of the PR in pursuit of that. The PR is strictly and faithfully composed from the provided criteria. I wouldn't have participated in it were it any other way.
You were placed below Dekar because he's been beating you comfortably in recent tournaments, just as Toshi has recently been beating the many people he's passed since the last PR. We'd all like to see your competitive interest in the game at local tournaments reinvigorated, but we certainly wouldn't sacrifice the integrity of the PR in pursuit of that. The PR is strictly and faithfully composed from the provided criteria. I wouldn't have participated in it were it any other way.
^ Having said all that, to start off, one problem I have with the PR is that you’re trying to make an uncompetitive person competitive in another angle. That doesn’t work! Should I feel pressured to play better, or should I stick to how I want to play the monthlies on my own personal terms? If I were to choose the latter, I will be assessed accordingly by a group of panellists that make the assumption that everyone entering is playing in the same way. It’s hard to interpret why and how people choose to play certain tournaments, but that’s part of the challenge in being a good panellist. At the moment, the current panellists seem to lack the exposure and interpretative ingenuity required to be convincing in their defence of their PR, however conclusive they feel they are. PR boards tend to make me feel like this, which is why I don’t seek to be involved in them. I’m not aiming to be competitive in local tournaments, so its ideal that I am not assessed like the rest (removing my name would be appropriate and would not illigitimize the rest of the list).
Winning Thriller: a major, defeating Dekar interstate in an environment where I am inspired to play well, defeating a player over there he has failed to prove himself against (because of matchup and player inexperience), winning matchups that always serve a disadvantage against me (this should null Redact’s CP-stage argument on the inconclusive tournament), is not as recently worthy as a Dekar’s couple of adv’d wins in local minor tournaments and an inconclusive one? Kas summed up his thoughts well in other Melee Disc thread (read it if you haven’t), and I agree with him fully on that account, which ties into the following statement, which Dekar agreed with: He is less capable against other players interstate and I have a much better handle on them. If he thinks he has a better handle on me now, cool, but that doesn't ascend him against other players that I can defeat or go well against. Are performances against others on a national level taken into panel consideration at all, or were you guys focussing far too narrowly on a particular set of variables?
I am convinced that too many PRs, including this one, use recent tournament results almost exclusively as a means to justify PR revisions. This suggests experience is irrelevant. If this were the case, then why are power rankings even developed? They are meant to be more than just static results; they are supposed to be an educated judgement on who is better than the other. A list of wins and losses is not a PR; people can make these lists themselves without requiring the expertise of a panel. At best, tournament results are subservient to any claim that someone is better than another. Only looking at the last three months like Tak recently pointed out is a rather superficial take on the PR. Shaz didn’t win much in 2007/2008, yet he was voted by the nation as the best Melee player for that time. All he needed to do was to convince others of his skill. Most people in the Smash Community know I am capable of delivering more when it counts and when it counts to me, however, I think this PR lacks this type of wider interpretative scope and needs further refining in future.
Atticus, I will give respect where it’s due and I appreciate the collective effort of the panellists to produce this list, as it will achieve its goal of giving players a reason to improve and solidfying the Melbourne Melee community, which is going awesonely at the moment. However, I am no longer in the game of trying in the same way everyone else does, at least, not in local minors. This is not to say I do not try, but there are other aspects of a tournament that I value more in a local setting, that will allow me to grow in other ways, such as playing a low tier like Ness, or sacrificing winners to try and win losers from two sets down (everyone knows I do these often). Have fun trying to integrate those variables into future PRs!
Needless to say, if you guys have already given much thought to the above, then you’re a very legitimate group, and I will be satisfied.
<3
Winning Thriller: a major, defeating Dekar interstate in an environment where I am inspired to play well, defeating a player over there he has failed to prove himself against (because of matchup and player inexperience), winning matchups that always serve a disadvantage against me (this should null Redact’s CP-stage argument on the inconclusive tournament), is not as recently worthy as a Dekar’s couple of adv’d wins in local minor tournaments and an inconclusive one? Kas summed up his thoughts well in other Melee Disc thread (read it if you haven’t), and I agree with him fully on that account, which ties into the following statement, which Dekar agreed with: He is less capable against other players interstate and I have a much better handle on them. If he thinks he has a better handle on me now, cool, but that doesn't ascend him against other players that I can defeat or go well against. Are performances against others on a national level taken into panel consideration at all, or were you guys focussing far too narrowly on a particular set of variables?
I am convinced that too many PRs, including this one, use recent tournament results almost exclusively as a means to justify PR revisions. This suggests experience is irrelevant. If this were the case, then why are power rankings even developed? They are meant to be more than just static results; they are supposed to be an educated judgement on who is better than the other. A list of wins and losses is not a PR; people can make these lists themselves without requiring the expertise of a panel. At best, tournament results are subservient to any claim that someone is better than another. Only looking at the last three months like Tak recently pointed out is a rather superficial take on the PR. Shaz didn’t win much in 2007/2008, yet he was voted by the nation as the best Melee player for that time. All he needed to do was to convince others of his skill. Most people in the Smash Community know I am capable of delivering more when it counts and when it counts to me, however, I think this PR lacks this type of wider interpretative scope and needs further refining in future.
Atticus, I will give respect where it’s due and I appreciate the collective effort of the panellists to produce this list, as it will achieve its goal of giving players a reason to improve and solidfying the Melbourne Melee community, which is going awesonely at the moment. However, I am no longer in the game of trying in the same way everyone else does, at least, not in local minors. This is not to say I do not try, but there are other aspects of a tournament that I value more in a local setting, that will allow me to grow in other ways, such as playing a low tier like Ness, or sacrificing winners to try and win losers from two sets down (everyone knows I do these often). Have fun trying to integrate those variables into future PRs!
Needless to say, if you guys have already given much thought to the above, then you’re a very legitimate group, and I will be satisfied.
<3
swordsaint
Smash Master
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
lol pwned, Dave words things so much better than I do XD wubz
Ledge_g2
Smash Ace
Yeah I completely agree with Cao, I was very suprised when I seen Dekar above Cao.
kupo
Smash Lord
Cao #1 in my heart.
Just to reiterate in regards to trying to make you 'competitive': the set of outcomes we may hope the PR achieves is a completely seperate entity from the methodology with which the PR is made. Yes, we do want to motivate all players to try harder to get a better ranking. No, it does not change our decisions if they won't care either way.
That said, ranking you down was not a decision made lightly. We do think you're capable of more, and we wouldn't just throw that out because of some unlucky/lazy tournament losses. However, if we consider the question "if Robocop was tomorrow, would you really be able to place better than Dekar?" (and importantly, this is not the all-deciding question for who should be ranked where!), the answer is not really that clear cut at the moment.
Your great interstate and international record and experience is a strong argument in favor of you, but Dekar has been tightening his game since Rocky and you've done little to prove he hasn't surpassed you. In such a case I felt it was best to err on the side of the recent tournament results we have which clearly favor him. We genuinely think he has caught up to you and has good odds in a set where you're both playing well, and a strong chance of being able to beat the most challenging interstate opponents too. We knew that analysis would be controversial when we made it, but that's the nature of PR.
Above is the reasoning I used for my contribution to this revision. However, I think you and Kas have raised some good points, and they'll definitely be considered in the discussion for next revision. Dekar's position isn't set in stone: even if the available variables don't change, the light in which we look at them can.
I understand your arguments for being removed for the list, but the PR is not just for people who try their best at monthlies - it's for all active participants in the Smash scene in Melbourne. If you were removed, anyone familiar with the Smash scene in Australia would look at our list and be like "wtf where's CAOTIC?", and rightly so - you're a key player in Melbourne. You are an active participant, one of our best players, and we would strongly prefer to include you even if we have to complicate the process with extra variables to do it.
That said, ranking you down was not a decision made lightly. We do think you're capable of more, and we wouldn't just throw that out because of some unlucky/lazy tournament losses. However, if we consider the question "if Robocop was tomorrow, would you really be able to place better than Dekar?" (and importantly, this is not the all-deciding question for who should be ranked where!), the answer is not really that clear cut at the moment.
Your great interstate and international record and experience is a strong argument in favor of you, but Dekar has been tightening his game since Rocky and you've done little to prove he hasn't surpassed you. In such a case I felt it was best to err on the side of the recent tournament results we have which clearly favor him. We genuinely think he has caught up to you and has good odds in a set where you're both playing well, and a strong chance of being able to beat the most challenging interstate opponents too. We knew that analysis would be controversial when we made it, but that's the nature of PR.
Above is the reasoning I used for my contribution to this revision. However, I think you and Kas have raised some good points, and they'll definitely be considered in the discussion for next revision. Dekar's position isn't set in stone: even if the available variables don't change, the light in which we look at them can.
I understand your arguments for being removed for the list, but the PR is not just for people who try their best at monthlies - it's for all active participants in the Smash scene in Melbourne. If you were removed, anyone familiar with the Smash scene in Australia would look at our list and be like "wtf where's CAOTIC?", and rightly so - you're a key player in Melbourne. You are an active participant, one of our best players, and we would strongly prefer to include you even if we have to complicate the process with extra variables to do it.
lol @ power rankings. second time this has happened in under a year.
Dekar289
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2007
- Messages
- 6,306
hey cao i don't see the "how much you think they are trying" criteria, maybe you should update that
idiot..
ofc this is really about cao being pissed he's #2, not about the panel following criteria incorrectly
i agree with your points vs interstaters though, but nothing can really be proven there until robocop...
OH BTW I DON'T TRY INTERSTATE, guess i'm 1st for sure
oh also i don't think atticus has been trying at all, so he should be #1
and redact's been trying 100% so he's now 15th really
idiot..
ofc this is really about cao being pissed he's #2, not about the panel following criteria incorrectly
i agree with your points vs interstaters though, but nothing can really be proven there until robocop...
OH BTW I DON'T TRY INTERSTATE, guess i'm 1st for sure
oh also i don't think atticus has been trying at all, so he should be #1
and redact's been trying 100% so he's now 15th really
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
yup it's a ******.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
This new Melee PR image hurts my eyes. Number 8 especially...
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
tib's is right
Doing well out of state has become somewhat of an onus on players.
Personally it makes travelling out of state less fun/more pressured...
But not trying isn't a reason to discount results. Results existing is what counts.
There are results as of late indicating Dekar has been beating CAO, but CAO has more solid results (even if they aren't as recent) against interstaters. But yeah, tunnel/circle of hate on that regard. PR players are expected to be pro everywhere
But saying Atticus should be no.1 because he wasn't trying is very silly. There are not ANY results that indicate such a thing in the first place. PR panels decide how important a result is themselves, but if there aren't any to begin with you're just making a pseudo-popularity rankings.
And as always, bigger tournaments should always be more important for rankings.
Personally it makes travelling out of state less fun/more pressured...
But not trying isn't a reason to discount results. Results existing is what counts.
There are results as of late indicating Dekar has been beating CAO, but CAO has more solid results (even if they aren't as recent) against interstaters. But yeah, tunnel/circle of hate on that regard. PR players are expected to be pro everywhere
But saying Atticus should be no.1 because he wasn't trying is very silly. There are not ANY results that indicate such a thing in the first place. PR panels decide how important a result is themselves, but if there aren't any to begin with you're just making a pseudo-popularity rankings.
And as always, bigger tournaments should always be more important for rankings.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
nice one shaya, totally nailed that sarcastic remark of dekars on the head... wait...
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