[VIC] 3 Stock'd ~ Melbourne 2010 ~ Nope

[C~Dog]

Pretty much everything is the same except for the schedule, and the only thing that changes for that is the events, i'll update it 1 or 2 weeks before the tourney when we figure out what events are running.

Since a group of new people are coming, this tells me to fun at least one Normal event, thoughts?

 

[Timic83]

i can bring pikmin 2 but im certainly not keen for that crap game, i mean the items are so op (banned for pressing Z? lol), if anything we should have strikers charged side tourny, u up for that dekar

mscf ruleset:
first to 8 goals
best of 3, regular counter pick system

neutral
classroom
bowser stadium
konga collosieum

cp:
the underground
galactic stadium
crystal canyon

all others banned for lag or dumb ****

timic gets waluigi every time
boo "******** enemy goalie" glitch is banned

also connor:

brawl singles with normal funding, and real, no random, brawl crews :D

 

[TakFR]

edit: dw about it

 

[Leisha]

I'd just say run doubles and singles and have a side lulz team tournament thing.

Just my thoughts anyway, probably not wanted by everyone else though, since they'll want less seriousness events.

 

[Jei Jei]

New people = at least one normal event imo.

Tbh I would like to see Fantanoice play in a tournament, I watched her play at that EB games bs tourney and I thought she had heaps of potential.

Jezza, play my Yoshi

 

[CAOTIC]

I helped run that BS EB Game Tourney tvym. 75m for everyone!!

Questions for Conor:

Is Brawl going to wrap up by 8pm? Because I plan to be out, packed up with Melee and eating at Trippy after 8 and I'd like you guys to join me!

Are you charging for a pot at all this monthly? I'm not going to do it for Melee to keep numbers higher and reinforce the causalness of the event; make an announcement on your decision.

 

[Jei Jei]

Aww Cao I meant BS as in non-standard-rules, not that the actual tournament was bad. So sensitive lol.

I'm up for some tacos

 

[Vermy]

This tournament may or may not be the retirement game for my Pokemon Trainer.

It's ok everyone, I'm a tier wh*re now. Falco and MK ftw.

 

[tibs7]

Typical melbournian *sigh*.

Yeah keep doubles as normal, singles won't need to be played as hopefully tourny will finish a little early so heaps of friendlies can be played.

 

[Vermy]

Born and raised, baby.

 

[CAOTIC]

Aww Cao I meant BS as in non-standard-rules, not that the actual tournament was bad. So sensitive lol.

I'm up for some tacos

What are you talking about? It was BS!

So sensitive lol.

<3



Tier whoring Melburnian? It's also American.

 

[Vermy]

I'm just not legit enough to stick it out as a low tier main and win vs Americans, like ViVa. <3

I've always used Falco, just never seriously. Apparently since I went even with Richard7's MK for a bit in pools, that means I'm good at this game now. MK I always loved in the Kirby games and anime, but never used because he's so S-Rank. Nowadays everyone's doing it, so what's one more? =p


Who am I kidding, I'll still end up using PT after a while.

 

[CAOTIC]

Can you teach me PT? They're the 2nd cutest <3

 

[Vermy]

Of course! I'll teach you how to moonwalk with Squirtle, plus all the sexy hydrosliding shenanigans and all the other ATs.

We srsly need to hang out more, Cao. More training sesh times, jah?

 

[Timic83]

hmm after checking around looking at rulesets and stage discussions (<3 BPC) i want to bring up the possibilty of adding some stages to CP in singles

rainbow snooze: almost every american tourny ive seen has this stage at some point in the set, its awesome and adds a lot to the metagame

ps2: banning this is dumb as it really does nothing bad. all of the transformations can be dealt with if you practice it

green greens: awesome stage, dont see a reason to ban it. "durr bomb blocks" stay away from the block part of the stage then. besides this stage has low boundaries and none of our current stages really do (cept brinstar)

japes: a good stage for falco and dk? i dont see reason to ban this stage, i dont know of any camping that can be done on it, and im pretty sure mk aint that great. no klaptrap johns, hes on a timer

distant planet: projectiles and rain beats noobs who camp on the left side, and if your char has no projectile they get them thru the flower pellets. also ladybug is not a hazard, hes pretty much like the yoshi island n64 clouds, just dont stay on him for too long or **** goes down

yoshis island melee: can we just try it for one tourny its a very cool stage and its apparently bad for MK

now i know im not a TO but i just wanan know why were banning so many stages

 

[C~Dog]

The stage list is how it is now because the BBR brought out a new stagelist right before RC, and Cao elected to keep the more conservative Thriller stagelist so people wouldn't have to play on stages they aren't used to. I was considering expanding the stagelist but didn't get an opportunity before RC, and i'm not going to change it for the last tourney.

As to your points:

rainbow snooze: almost every american tourny ive seen has this stage at some point in the set, its awesome and adds a lot to the metagame

* Just because US does something doesn't make it inherently the correct choice.
* Awesome is subjective, has no place in debate.
* Care to specify what it adds to the metagame?

ps2: banning this is dumb as it really does nothing bad. all of the transformations can be dealt with if you practice it

* Can you please address each of the transformations and why they are not detrimental to gameplay.
* Fallacy: 75M and Big Blue can be dealt with if you practice it, doesn't mean they are suitable.

green greens: awesome stage, dont see a reason to ban it. "durr bomb blocks" stay away from the block part of the stage then. besides this stage has low boundaries and none of our current stages really do (cept brinstar)

* Once again awesome is subjective.
* The blocks take up most of the stage. What if you are forced to approach, then you will have to go near the bombs anyway.

japes: a good stage for falco and dk? i dont see reason to ban this stage, i dont know of any camping that can be done on it, and im pretty sure mk aint that great. no klaptrap johns, hes on a timer

* Camping is effective because the stage is so large you can evade the opponent easily.
* Please state why MK is not good on this stage.
* You can always be hit or thrown into a klaptrap for an early and (debatably) unfair kill.

distant planet: projectiles and rain beats noobs who camp on the left side, and if your char has no projectile they get them thru the flower pellets. also ladybug is not a hazard, hes pretty much like the yoshi island n64 clouds, just dont stay on him for too long or **** goes down

* The issue is circle camping, not just camping the left side.
* Camping under the left side of the platform provides a near insurmountable defensive position.
* The flower pellets are not good projectiles.

yoshis island melee: can we just try it for one tourny its a very cool stage and its apparently bad for MK

* Why is it bad for MK?
* Not even an argument.

Could you please provide detailed and substansive arguments for the inclusion of the stages?

 

[Timic83]

i wasnt implying you should change t for the last tourny, obviously if a new stagelist happens it should start with the new season

ill admit youve convinced me that yoshis melee and distant shouldnt really be allowed, and i really put them in as afterthoughts. still would like to see them (hey id like to see summit, the ice adds so much ), as i really think they dont pose that much of a threat (mk camps enough anyway on other stages, and i dont exactly know where i heard yoshis melee was bad for mk but if it is i think its good enough reason to add)


cruise legality: it adds a moving stage to the metagame (delfino is more of a "slideshow" stage) that characters must adapt to, and adds walkoffs adding to characters kill options, but like delfino the walkoffs eventually dissapear. the stage also does things like give advantages to moves like kirby and mks up-throw, and forces players to think about where they stand with the raising carpets and donut lifts

now to ***** users who give better arguments than i do

ps2 legality : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285744

greens legality:

Counterpick
Vote: (0-11-6)

We recognize this stage has been controversial in the past, and after considering the merits and problems with this stage, we concluded it was overall an acceptable counterpick.

The single most dominating aspect of the debate was the randomness issue; Green Greens has three random aspects. The first is that blocks randomly fall into incomplete columns and may or may not be bombs, the second is that apples occasionally fall and may randomly be throwable items, healing items, or self-detonating explosives, and the third is that the wind event occurs randomly. The consensus on the blocks was that, while they do contain a significant random element, it is small when players understand the rules governing the stage and play correctly to minimize risk. It is further limited as a problem by the fact that good DI prevents deaths to the bomb blocks except at fairly high damage so getting hit into a randomly falling bomb block should very seldom be fatal. The apples were agreed to be somewhat harder to predict, but apples fall rarely with the most deadly aspect (exploding apples) being the rarest issue of all. Again, very rare misfortune may occur, but the vast majority of problems randomness in apples cause can be avoided by all players using smart play. The third random aspect, the wind, was not raised as a significant point and therefore is likely considered irrelevant to the stage's legality by the majority of the BBR. While some BBR members did feel the randomness was significant enough to warrant a ban, the majority did not feel it was especially significant when informed players approached the stage.

The potential for wall infintes was another concern for this stage, but it was ultimately decided by the majority to be acceptable. The breakable nature of the blocks does much to limit the power of wall infinites on this stage.

The closeness of blast zones was another concern, but the majority dismissed this concern. Some feel that blast zone proximity should not be a large concern when deciding counterpick status at all, and others were quick to point out that Green Greens is not as extreme as it initially seems. The main ground on Green Greens is actually slightly further from the upper blast zone than the deck of the Halberd, and play on Green Greens is usually based around the center stage which is reasonably distant from the side blast zones.

The stalling potential of this stage with under the stage antics and ledge stalling was considered but ultimately dismissed. The majority felt that, while this was a potential concern, it was not significantly more dangerous than it is on Smashville, an uncontroversial legal stage.

Matchup balance was the last point considered, but no consensus was reached on how powerful this stage was for characters such as Meta Knight. The fact that few seemed sure of the character balance on this stage was highlighted by what a rare pick this stage was at both MLG events. This uncertainty led us to conclude that this stage should not be banned on that basis.

japes legality:

In place where this stage was banned, Falco's performance was sometimes cited as a reason. However, there was a strong consensus that his strength here was overestimated, and is certainly no reason to ban the stage.

The Klap Trap was raised as a concern, but we decided it was a non-issue. Although it kills at low percents, it occupies space away from the main part of the stage. Combined with the fact that the timing of its appearance is completely predictable, this makes the Klap Trap a stage feature that can be incorporated into a strategy, rather than a hazard that interferes with gameplay.

The greater concern was for the stalling potential on the stage. The multiple ledges and the constant presence of water make running away significantly easier than on most other stages. Wario and Meta Knight in particular are two characters who could use these features effectively. While many of us acknowledge that this could be problematic, the fact that this stage has been legal in many regions, with no such strategy being proven to be overpowered or degenerate, is enough to allow this stage to remain legal until it is more conclusively shown that these stalling tactics are broken.

 

[Shaya]

you're not having PS2 as legal condog?

-1000REP

 

[C~Dog]

I don't believe I stated anywhere what stages I will be having as legal or not.

Also CAO

I was planning to go to 10pm as usual, and I am haven't decided on costings yet.

 

[Ledge_g2]

I'm in agreeance with Tim. I think extra stages give more tools for people to add to their stratergies through stage features/hazards.
I would also like to see Port Town Aero Drive, just avoid the cars and wall. I have no idea how viable it actually is though, havn't done research on it.
Big Blue too, but i dont think anyone else likes it xD.

 

[Splice]

Green Greens is a bad stage for MK imo

* Bomb blocks hitbox is only out for one frame, air dodging as you jump over the blocks is enough so that you don't get hit by them for most characters. Some might have to... air dodge twice.
* If you assume the apples will explode, then they won't do anything to hinder you, and the opponent is taking a risk if he tries to pick them up. The apples are pretty stupid.
* This stage is bad for MK simply because he doesn't have any consistant Upwards kill moves (UpB works SOME TIMES, Utilt is his most reliable upwards kill move and it isn't incredibly strong) He dies upwards easy. He can use UpB next to the bombs and not get hit due to his invincibility, however once he uses this tactic, the bombs take some time to come back, so it is not a permanent obstacle, and like i said airdodging over the blocks as he tries to do this will beat this. It is also a bad stage for gimping seeing as so much of the blast zone is taken up by the actual stage, so this also limits MK a bit more.

Japes should also be legal, to reply to your points specificly
* Camping is difficult to deal with on this stage, it's true. But it is helpful that stage control on this stage is also especially good to have, and if someone is camping but you have stage control in the middle, if you have % lead, then this is a better position, although I'm not sure about Snake or Pit, who can control their projectiles well.
* The klaptraps are very easy to avoid due to the times they come. You can only be hit into them if you are getting spiked or stuffing around in that area already. If you are above the side platforms and are spiked into the platform and cannot DI onto the centre of the platform, then I'd assume you are already on a high %. I don't know if there are any spikes that are hard to DI at low %'s though.
* This stage is bad for MK cause it is another stage where gimping means less due to the stage structure, stage is so big, and the water kills you anyway. However it is good for MK due to high ceiling. It is debatable whether it is good or bad, It's just MU in the end.

Rainbow Cruise
* This stage adds to the metagame in some way, in that it doesn't benefit specific groups of characters (although multiple jumps/good recovery/air mobility characters all seem to like it here) but also a bunch of random characters for some reason or another. This stage can be used by MOST characters in some of there MU's. This stage is detrimental in that characters like Link could be CP'd here by anyone, simply coz of how bad this stage is for Link, not because of how it benefits the opponent. I am not a fan of CP's that allow this so heavily, but that doesn't matter.
* It's not so much that "because US do it we should" but that the main tourney scene aside from ourselves is America, and if all of them have it legal then perhaps they have reason for this, and it may be that the majority thinks this stage should be legal, for some reason or another. I do not know if Europe or Japan have this stage on at most tournaments.

Green Greens is a fantastic stage imo, I believe we should have it back.
Japes and RC are good too.

Norfair should also be brought back... I mean you can't camp amazingly on it with Falco and stuff, and you'll find that most characters can deal with MK planking on the sides in some way. And I'm pretty sure the "advanced MK planking tricks on Norfair" are all ******** anyway. It's just the 3 ledges per side that affects anything. The lava is also pretty piss easy to dodge unless you are thrown into it (like the spikes and bulllets on pictochat but thats legal) the wave of lava can be spot dodged you dont need to go in the capsule and the wall of lava halves the stage for a short time. The only true problem with this stage is when there is only one platform due to the wall of lava + the lava going really high so thats pretty silly. That happens like 1 in 4 matches though. I see no other reasons apart from that why it would be considered a bad stage its so geeeewd and LEGAL and LEGIT.
__________________________________
As Gary said, stage diversity alone is reason enough to have most of these stages that arent OBVIOUSLY ******** (like the Mario Bros. stage). As long as they follow the common structure of "ledges on left and right" and "main stage is a simple series of platforms (not hyrule or newporkcity)" then there is no reason to get rid of the stage unless there is some random gimick that makes it redundant (Warioware... although whether thats illegal is still debatable too really... the main stage is fine... but the invincibility power up is gay!).

It gives individual characters a larger array of CP's, and characters that are similair in CP's start to drift apart too when we add more stages, which I think is a good thing. All I ever practice these days are Castle Siege, Delphino and Neutrals... I should practice on Frigate.

PS2, Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens, Port town Aero dive, NORFAIR, More stages I can't think of...
Need more stages
u so boring melbourrneeee

 

[Timic83]

^thankyou for saying everything i wanted to splice

also on further investigation my initial hate of norfair was wrong its a gewd stage

proposal

timics sexy starters for like the one brawl side event he may hold at his house in 2011

starters (9 for adventage to the guy who picks first):
fd
lylat
crashville
yoshis
battlefield
halberd
ps1
ps2
delfino

cp:
frygate
japes
greens
brinstar
cruise
castle
picto
norfair

 

[Dekar289]

ban all of them

 

[dean.]

yes NORFAIR!
I'm generally in agreement with conservative stage lists, but NORFAIR!

 

[Splice]

legit starters.

PS2 = Castle Siege, its debatable which is 9th.

7 is also good.
PS1, SV, BF, YI, FD, Halberd, Lylat

Although people seem to think Halberd has PROBLEMZ and it probs wouldnt end up in the 7 starters, delfino would or something, which is silly, so then we should have 9 starters. LOL!

Pirate Ship could also come back
gotta remember half of these stages, god**** strict tournies made me forget them all.

 

[Silfa]

I didn't read most of what you said Splice, but I'm pretty sure RC is a decent stage for Link.

Also air dodging over the blocks in order to approach someone on Green Greens will just give the person behind them a free hit generally.

Japes means you have to ban it against Falco pretty much and he gets a free CP out of BF/FD or whatever is the good falco stage now.

I meant to only post the link thing but went on a bit. Delicious nitpicks.

 

[Attila_]

i would like to see rc and ps2 in cps next year, although im not yet sure on japes or port town.

and fd should be moved back to neutral.

* Just because US does something doesn't make it inherently the correct choice.

i disagree. if our players would like to be competitive against international competition, it only stands to reason that we practice in accordance with international standards.

 

[ViVa]

Norfairs amazing, make it legal so I can do this again. <3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK5aJMLp0FE

 

[M]

i disagree. if our players would like to be competitive against international competition, it only stands to reason that we practice in accordance with international standards.

Pretty sure the US standard isn't international standard. Last I remember hearing, places like Japan do their own thing.

 

[Attila_]

and then players like rain get the business when they play in the us...

 

[Splice]

I didn't read most of what you said Splice, but I'm pretty sure RC is a decent stage for Link.

Also air dodging over the blocks in order to approach someone on Green Greens will just give the person behind them a free hit generally.

Japes means you have to ban it against Falco pretty much and he gets a free CP out of BF/FD or whatever is the good falco stage now.

I meant to only post the link thing but went on a bit. Delicious nitpicks.

I don't see how it's good for Link. The point is I'm 99% sure there are some characters that regardless of who they are playing, this stage would be terrible for them anyway, just coz the stage asks for a high standard of air mobility and recovering sometimes.

Air dodging over the blocks will almost never give them a free hit. If you are jumping over the blocks and trying to get to center of stage, you just time the dodge so it ends once you are over the blocks, and if they use an attack you can bait or air dodge again or whatever, you'll be in the same position as if you just jumped over the blocks. Even characters with longer air dodges just need to use it prematurely as they go over the blocks. If they are going to one of the side parts of stage, the same thing applies, its simply a hard position to approach anyway with the wall in front of it. If someone was camping there I'd look for a way to break the blocks before approaching so I could approach from a lower point, but still with an airdodge likely.

Japes is not that amazing for Falco... you can hit him in the middle of his SideB, because the side platforms are higher he can't even camp that amazingly... And don't you have to ban one stage or another against every character anyway? Not everyone will ban Japes against Falco (even though Snake probably does better there, he can kill to the sides you know and he camps like a pro). No real reason there...

 

[Dekar289]

if we have ps2 can we have warioware too

 

[Zxv]

* You can always be hit or thrown into a klaptrap for an early and (debatably) unfair kill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQUhuZIQtsk#t=2m20s

 

[Silfa]

I think I just heard the link thing from Scabe and it might not be true. Regardless, I see what you're trying to say.

With the airdodging, I just think it just gives the person camping the sides way more options than the one approaching. Once the airdodge ends, you're going to be above them which is a bad position to begin with. Then, there is little space to use an aerial that is so on block, which leads to getting grabbed and probably creates another scenario where the person who approached is at a loss. The person camping doesn't need to do anything but sheild once the opponent gets close enough really. Of course, it is likely that they will try to attack and the opens up oppurtunities to get down there anyway. Then again, the person could then just run over to the other side afterwards and start again..
I dont think air dodging is even the issue. The problem I see is that the person sitting on the side has more options in comparison to the one approaching (more so than usual atleast).
Then again, I guess that sort of makes it a potential CP because of the advantage it gives to certain characters.. I don't even think this ramble makes sense anymore. I'm so confused.

Japes is quite good for falco. I wouldn't want to play him there anyway. The point is, Falco then gets a whole bunch of stages that are very good from him including both FD and Japes. You have to ban a stage against him anyway, yeah, but adding a very strong option to his list of counter picks means your guaranteed to go to a stage that is most likely very good for him.

 

[Splice]

Falco is a good character. You'll see that good characters tend to do well on more stages. I think.
Remember it's not just adding a stage for Falco, this is adding a stage for other characters too.
Japes and FD are good for Falco but in different MUs. I will let scoot do the talking from here.
I do not know.

And you are right the air dodging isnt the issue lol its the fact that you are approaching from above because of the blocks. And that is what makes this stage ok for camping. And that is quite possibly the biggest flaw of the stage, is the way that camping on the stage works.

 

[luke_atyeo]

failco was one of the main reasons japes was banned, falco on japes is ****ing dumb

 

[Zxv]

I remember talking with Scoot on the way home from a Boost about Port Town as a CP... One problem with having *too* many obscure counterpick stages is that you have to consider that each player only gets one ban.

For example: Falco vs Metaknight matchup. If Port Town or Rainbow Cruise were legal in addition to Brinstar, Falco would only be able to ban one stage and be hard counterpicked to a practically impossible stage to win on. This means "Lose first match, lose the set". Additional counterpick stages means that several characters will *always* be hard counterpicked, regardless of their ban.

 

[Nixernator]

Make green greens legal, stage is amazing. Kthxbai

 

[Timic83]

just ban mk then dammit

 

[C~Dog]

Nah sorry.