Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Spinosaurus]

So Jigglypuff is basically Wario, without weight or safety on down-b?

And a command grab. She is Wario without the things that makes him good, yes.

 

[Trifroze]

I've been observing this thread for a long time now and have yet to say a word in here, but I just have to know why most of y'all do not agree that Ryu is top tier, let alone even in the top 10???????

What don't you see? What don't you get? Why don't you understand?

Ever since the start, I have played a wide range of characters, from Robin to Shulk to Charizard to Mewtwo to Mii Swordfighter, but none of them come close to what I have found in Ryu. This character was CREATED for competitive play. There is no reason someone like myself, a COMPETITIVE player, should ever have to switch to another character again for tournament play. He has all the makings of greatness, yet so very few even use him.

I am not the greatest player myself, and my results show it. There's so much left to work on. But why am I one of, if not, the ONLY Ryu mains with any kind of results whatsoever? Why do my results have to hold so much weight with this character? There are SO many better players out there who can be doing what I'm doing with Ryu, but other than 9B.......where are they?

I believe that I am on the verge of the greatest discovery in Smash 4. I may very well be playing the best character in the game.

When I spotdodge a GRAB (literally the entirety of the metagame) and have enough frames to DTILT AND SHORYUKEN YOU AND KILL YOU AT 60% BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN PUT UP YOUR SHIELD.......who else has this?

When I punish a move with FRAME 1 SUPER ARMOR FOCUS ATTACK DASH CANCEL DAIR TO SHORYUKEN AND KILL YOU STARTING AT 40%.......hello? Yes this is Trela, can I help you?

When I confirm off of a Nair or Fair or Dtilt or Utilt in neutral for GUARANTEED 20%-40% THAT CAN LEAD TO YOUR DEATH BY A DAIR OR SHORYUKEN AS EARLY AS 60%.......I'm sorry, who the f**k are you again?

Hell, when I FRAME 1 INVINCIBILITY SHORYUKEN YOU THROUGH JUST ABOUT EVERY SINGLE ATTACK IN THE GAME AND KILL YOU AT, YOU GUESS IT, 60%.......what are you gonna do about it?

Other than my opponent literally being a better player than me.......what am I supposed to be afraid of?

"W-well you see Megaman can-"

LMAO WHO!?!?!?

"Pikachu can combo you with multi-hits and gimp you with relative ease!"

Pikachu can also die to Shoryuken as early as 50% with relative ease, but please, keep going.

"Olimar just keeps him out so well, like what can Ryu even do?"

>Hits a Pikmin with any move Ryu has
>hitlag keeps the move out for the rest of Smash 4's lifespan

Yes, please keep throwing Pikmin at me, I would like to have a word with them

I can keep going, and I will. 20SF will become a reality when I'm through with Ryu.

So go ahead; continue to believe Ryu doesn't have what it takes to truly win with consistency at the top level of play, because if I can't do it, someone else like 9B will. Don't sleep on the man.

On a tier list that I posted I put Ryu 5th and considered him as high as 3rd, and I think quite a lot of people consider him a top character at this point who's only getting better.

What will likely hold him back from being the best is that no one is going to approach him or take any unnecessary risks that puts them into close range where Ryu could punish with FA or raw SRK, and some characters will be able to lame him out effectively enough with better range and mobility (Sheik, ZSS and Sonic at least). Some characters can possibly also camp him out, but I don't think there's going to be many matchups that he loses. If he doesn't connect with SRK or offstage dair though his opponents will usually end up living for a long time.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That's really a very strange line if thought when I think about it, actually. It's like... Palutena is a bad character. But sometimes she can win if she gets all the right reads! ... it's just flawed reasoning. That said, Ganon matchups aren't even that terrible against many characters. He's definitely not bottom 10 imo. It's still just... not a good line of thought to have though. Any fighter can run away with a game if you let them... but that's not really relevant to anything, at all.

It's more the reward off of a read, I think. Like, most of Ganondorf's moveset can kill you at variously absurd percents, so "don't get hit" is legit what you should be aiming for against him but everyone gets hit at least a few times. So he's still a threat, if not a consistent one.

Palutena can't kill you at rofl% from ftilt or something. (Lightweight dthrow combos, maybe?)

Anyway, I'm not making the claim that Ganondorf beats anyone. (Don't know nearly enough about him anyway.) But I don't think it's a stretch that even if he loses everything 4:6 or 3:7, you can still slap a footnote that says don't get sloppy or you're dead at, like, 50% or something on most of his matchups. And I'm wondering if any other low tier characters can really claim that about themselves.

Serial edits, I think I'm done now.

 

[PND]

I haven't seen much discussion on this:

Canada Cup had a Palutena main (Iceninja) in top 8, customs off.

Iceninja went through Blacktwins and Venom to get there, only losing to Yoh's Sheik and HolyNightmare's ROB in a really close set.

Results from the top 32 bracket here: http://challonge.com/CCWiiu2015/standings

 

[Ffamran]

Anyway, I'm not making the claim that Ganondorf beats anyone. (Don't know nearly enough about him anyway.) But I don't think it's a stretch that even if he loses everything 4:6 or 3:7, you can still slap a footnote that says don't get sloppy or you're dead at, like, 50% or something on most of his matchups. And I'm wondering if any other low tier characters can really claim that about themselves.

Serial edits, I think I'm done now.

So, basically Bowser, Charizard, Triple D, Mewtwo, and Zelda. They are among the strongest punishers while also being on the lower spectrum in the game. Their ability to rebound is scary when one read can turn matches around, however, the problem is actually hitting anything if they're getting tossed around like ragdolls.

 

[wedl!!]

No guys you don't understand Jigglypuff has a combo that does like 40% and I can show you this video in training mode with an idle bot!!!!!! shes good trust me!!!!

All of the fatty low tiers+ Zelda and M2 have that gimmick. Jigglypuff too, but her only really threatening punish is Rest which only becomes relevant at last stock because it's too dangerous to throw out normally.

I've honestly thought Jiggly was the worst character in the game since like September. I like that people are changing their minds and realizing to be a good character in this game you actually have to have a functioning neutral.

 

[Nobie]

It's not just a matter of "reads" but how your tools lend themselves to reads. For example, Ryu is a character that relies on reads/footsies, but is so diverse in his neutral kit that he potentially has an answer for just about anything. Sheik is a character who doesn't need to make reads, she can just straight up overwhelm you with better, comprehensive individual tools.

Jigglypuff is an interesting case. Even putting aside Rest, she does have some strong tools that can straight up beat a number of things (nair, dash attack), but the fact that she has to make up for a lack of range with aerial movement means that she's also missing a vital chunk of her game (reliable grabs).

However, I think it's also not quite right to label Rest as a move you only use off of "hard reads." It's frame 1 invincible. If someone misspaces a somewhat laggy attack, you can jump in and Rest. If someone crosses up too deep, you can shield drop or jump out of shield and Rest. There are moments where it's guaranteed to land, it's just not going to be in combos.

Rest interestingly also has diminishing returns the higher the opponent's damage after a certain point. If you Rest them at 150% they'll die so fast that they'll respawn more quickly and kick your puffs.

 

[⑨ball]

There are moments where it's guaranteed to land, it's just not going to be in combos.

Not sure what changes she's had since 1.08, but my brief fling with her had FFuair>rest around 40%. Not sure how much DI effects it however.

Not sure I'd agree with Ryu relying on reads. His neutral is functional enough that he can trade or poke all day while keeping an eye out for things he can punish with drop shield dtilt/utilt/jab>SRK. Of course he gets great rewards from reads, but he doesn't rely on them in the slightest.

Also not sure about his footsies since it seems more often than anything, Ryu is just powering through.

 

[Wintropy]

I haven't seen much discussion on this:

Canada Cup had a Palutena main (Iceninja) in top 8, customs off.

Iceninja went through Blacktwins and Venom to get there, only losing to Yoh's Sheik and HolyNightmare's ROB in a really close set.

Results from the top 32 bracket here: http://challonge.com/CCWiiu2015/standings

This was posted recently, and it made me giddy with joy, but I don't think it's really indicative of much. You'd need to have two or three good players doing that kinda thing consistently for it to make a real impact.

Which is why I'd be incredibly excited to see what Ryo and Aerolink could do if they went to more things and used Palutena more often. In tandem with Iceninja's results, and if they could win stuff or place well with her beyond one or two free regions, I think that'd be at least enough to get people to take heed.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ryo only uses Palutena when he's sandbagging/messing around in the first set of Grand Finals. Its the same time frame when he uses Lucina, Ganondorf... I think I've seen him use Roy as well?

He goes to plenty of things. He's just never going to use Palutena seriously or particularly frequently. I wouldn't get looking to him for Palutena results.

 

[Nobie]

Not sure what changes she's had since 1.08, but my brief fling with her had FFuair>rest around 40%. Not sure how much DI effects it however.

Not sure I'd agree with Ryu relying on reads. His neutral is functional enough that he can trade or poke all day while keeping an eye out for things he can punish with drop shield dtilt/utilt/jab>SRK. Of course he gets great rewards from reads, but he doesn't rely on them in the slightest.

Also not sure about his footsies since it seems more often than anything, Ryu is just powering through.

What I meant is, it's possible for Ryu to make both right and wrong decisions. There are situations where a given attack will be the wrong decision, and it's up to the player to make the right "read." In this case, it's less about GANONDORF HARD READS and more about getting into the mind of the opponent.

In contrast, Sheik f-tilt and fair are just...good. There's little need to worry about messing up or picking the wrong thing. In all likelihood, those moves are going to win.

 

[Wintropy]

Ryo only uses Palutena when he's sandbagging/messing around in the first set of Grand Finals. Its the same time frame when he uses Lucina, Ganondorf... I think I've seen him use Roy as well?

He goes to plenty of things. He's just never going to use Palutena seriously or particularly frequently. I wouldn't get looking to him for Palutena results.

I know, which is why I'm mentioning it as a hypothetical. I don't expect him to suddenly pick up Palutena for anything beyond having fun, it's just good to know that there's at least one more good player that's been tempted to pick her up (however indistinctly).

I don't intend to dwell on theoretical daydreams, but it's interesting to consider. I do think a good Palutena can be a regional threat, but not much more than that.

 

[Thinkaman]

Jigglypuff, as someone with a poor neutral but high reward, is obviously better in teams than singles. How much better?

(This also certainly true for Zelda, and almost certainly true for Ganon + Mewtwo as well. Probably true for DDD and Bowser to some extent.)

 

[LancerStaff]

Jigglypuff, as someone with a poor neutral but high reward, is obviously better in teams than singles. How much better?

(This also certainly true for Zelda, and almost certainly true for Ganon + Mewtwo as well. Probably true for DDD and Bowser to some extent.)

Doubles is kinda an equalizer... You have the characters like MK or ZSS that can string together long combos but it's often risky to do so because there's a teammate to watch out for, and then characters with slower/harder to land kill moves can combo off of teammates for early kills.

And then there's stuff like Sheik & Watch and Villager in general which puts things pretty far out of whack.

 

[C0rvus]

Characters with poor neutral but good reward can make waves in doubles, assuming decent team composition. Neutral matters quite a bit less, but mobility helps to win the volatile positioning war that doubles becomes, as well as being able to assist your teammate better. So the best doubles characters tend to still be the best singles characters. Doubles evens the field in some ways, but also introduces very strong gimmicks (Lucas/Lucario Anubis strat, Sheik/Game and Watch Bucket strat, VIllager/most anyone, etc.)

It's a super fun way to play, but only if you have good synergy with your teammate. Just came to mind since I've got a doubles tournament this weekend, and I'm still not sure who to play.

 

[|RK|]

Hm. Lucas and Robin sound like a possible good team. Robin heals Lucas with Thoron, and absorbs Lucas's health with Nosferatu (when they have some space).

 

[Spinosaurus]

absorbs Lucas's health with Nosferatu (when they have some space).

This almost will never happen though. Too much set up for so little health gain.

Doubles is a whole different meta anyway, of course some (most?) characters can be significantly better there.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Hm. Lucas and Robin sound like a possible good team. Robin heals Lucas with Thoron, and absorbs Lucas's health with Nosferatu (when they have some space).

Doesn't Thoron act weird with absorbers since it's a lot of small individual hits? I'm pretty sure catching it in the bucket at least is unusually weak.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Jigglypuff, as someone with a poor neutral but high reward, is obviously better in teams than singles. How much better?

(This also certainly true for Zelda, and almost certainly true for Ganon + Mewtwo as well. Probably true for DDD and Bowser to some extent.)

Maybe... in doubles it's way too easy for big characters to get overwhelmed and it seems a lot of people deliberately go after the big guys first because of this. I know Dedede specifically doesn't handle pressure well and largely needs someone close by to cover him lest he become combo food. Bowser's not much different but I think he has better tools for getting himself out of a jam.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

One nearly unbeatable doubles team I once thought of is Villager and Pac-Man. You could have complete control over one side of the stage. Villager could Pocket the melon, key, or hydrant for some major damage. They could also do some crazy stuff, like using the tree to hit the hydrant (two hydrants if Villager gets his hands on one), and just dealing massive damage.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Kirby + Shulk is not a good doubles team. Both have bad startup on aerials (Kirby's only aerial faster than frame 10 is b-air which is frame 6, and Shulk has the worst). This means they can be pressured easily, and they also can't team combo at all. Monados don't help and an inhale every time you lose the power by being hit honestly makes it almost an unviable strategy. Kirby's bad mobility also can't really protect Shulk from being eaten alive, and shulk's laggy moves don't help kirby the same way.

Also imo kirby is bad in dubs because he can't combo literally at all, and that's 1/2 saving graces for kirby being trash (also, inhale isn't very viable in dubs).

 

[Y2Kay]

Kirby + Shulk is not a good doubles team. Both have bad startup on aerials (Kirby's only aerial faster than frame 10 is b-air which is frame 6, and Shulk has the worst). This means they can be pressured easily, and they also can't team combo at all. Monados don't help and an inhale every time you lose the power by being hit honestly makes it almost an unviable strategy. Kirby's bad mobility also can't really protect Shulk from being eaten alive, and shulk's laggy moves don't help kirby the same way.

Also imo kirby is bad in dubs because he can't combo literally at all, and that's 1/2 saving graces for kirby being trash (also, inhale isn't very viable in dubs).

Tell that to John numbers and mike Kirby. They took a whole doubles tourney with that exact team.

 

[Fatmanonice]

One nearly unbeatable doubles team I once thought of is Villager and Pac-Man. You could have complete control over one side of the stage. Villager could Pocket the melon, key, or hydrant for some major damage. They could also do some crazy stuff, like using the tree to hit the hydrant (two hydrants if Villager gets his hands on one), and just dealing massive damage.

Villager + anyone with good projectiles is pretty damn scary. all grant Villager some really stupidly good options that aren't that hard to set up.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Tell that to John numbers and mike Kirby. They took a whole doubles tourney with that exact team.

Nobody knows the MU for either character and most likely don't know how to beat the team.

 

[Y2Kay]

Nobody knows the MU for either character and most likely don't know how to beat the team.

They also did these cool b throw to back slash kills. It was pretty awesome!

 

[C0rvus]

Most of the time, team/player synergy > team composition.

Any team can bang cool team combos if the players can read each other well and practice. Look at Sol and Ryo's kickass Mac/Ike team. Not the best pair, but those two put in serious work.

I say most of the time because super strong low risk gimmicks like Sheik/GnW exist, and it's Smash. Anything can happen. (Also some teams are just super good or super bad.)

 

[LozNerd]

I feel Falco is underrated in this game (Yes, I might be a little biased but this is my true opinion). I think he certainly isn't top-tier but belongs in the lower half of the greater threats once we learn more about him. His aerials are quite strong and he can get pretty consistent kills and mid-percent with Bair if used correctly. He also has a decent off-stage edge-guarding game (with Nair, Fair, and Bair) and pretty good combos.

 

[FullMoon]

Pocketed fully charged shurikens are pretty hilarious

Here, let me just throw this giant transcedent projectile that hits multiple times and kills you at like 80% whenever I feel like it.

I dunno how much synergy Greninja and Villager have otherwise, but Greninja being super mobile in comparison to Villager probably helps a bit.

 

[Blobface]

It's more the reward off of a read, I think. Like, most of Ganondorf's moveset can kill you at variously absurd percents, so "don't get hit" is legit what you should be aiming for against him but everyone gets hit at least a few times. So he's still a threat, if not a consistent one.

Palutena can't kill you at rofl% from ftilt or something. (Lightweight dthrow combos, maybe?)

Anyway, I'm not making the claim that Ganondorf beats anyone. (Don't know nearly enough about him anyway.) But I don't think it's a stretch that even if he loses everything 4:6 or 3:7, you can still slap a footnote that says don't get sloppy or you're dead at, like, 50% or something on most of his matchups. And I'm wondering if any other low tier characters can really claim that about themselves.

Serial edits, I think I'm done now.

To add to this, rage Ganon is dumb. Roughly, with max rage: Dash Attack kills sub 120%, F-tilt at 80%, F-air, and B-air at 60%, U-smash at 50%, and F-smash and D-smash can kill below 30%. And as usual any hit offstage will kill you.

This is part of why Ganon is so inconsistent actually, he gambles a lot with rage. Ganon loves when he has a stock lead and he's at 100+%, because it means you can't take many risks vs his power while he's got plenty of time to hit you with something big, or at least tack on a lot of percent with his high Damage Per Hit and his rage-unaffected comboing ability.

'Course this also means that he can get absolutely trashed if he loses the stock lead, especially if it happens unusually early.

 

[K_osh]

Kirby + Shulk is not a good doubles team. Both have bad startup on aerials (Kirby's only aerial faster than frame 10 is b-air which is frame 6, and Shulk has the worst). This means they can be pressured easily, and they also can't team combo at all. Monados don't help and an inhale every time you lose the power by being hit honestly makes it almost an unviable strategy. Kirby's bad mobility also can't really protect Shulk from being eaten alive, and shulk's laggy moves don't help kirby the same way.

Also imo kirby is bad in dubs because he can't combo literally at all, and that's 1/2 saving graces for kirby being trash (also, inhale isn't very viable in dubs).

Nobody knows the MU for either character and most likely don't know how to beat the team.

Cleaely they made the team work and had plenty of combos that worked well together. Also the monodo helps Kirby out a lot and gets rid of some of his major flaws such as mobility. Also for that situation you cannot say they did not have experience. They live in a region where there are plenty of strong kirby players such as ken 109, mikekirby and Devon3000 so it's very possible that they would have some Kirby experience. Shulk maybe not as much, but most likely Kirby. Inhale seemed viable and they had good mixups such as the threat of spiting him out. They still won and had a strong showing even though they have bearly teamed together (to my knowledge). They made it work and from what we have seen it works well. Theory craft is nice but from what we've seen it is a good team.

 

[Planty]

I feel Falco is underrated in this game (Yes, I might be a little biased but this is my true opinion). I think he certainly isn't top-tier but belongs in the lower half of the greater threats once we learn more about him. His aerials are quite strong and he can get pretty consistent kills and mid-percent with Bair if used correctly. He also has a decent off-stage edge-guarding game (with Nair, Fair, and Bair) and pretty good combos.

Ffamran is likely going to make a huge wall of text.

To save you the trouble of reading the whole thing, Falco may have a good advantage, but his neutral is poor. He can't control space effectively and his only options around midrange are moving and.... not much else. Sure reflector is a thing that's what again? -37 on shield and deals 5%? And of course when he inevitably loses neutral, his disadvantage sucks and he will be taking in huge punishes.

Really though, if it wasn't for mobility, Falco would be an amazing character but as it is now, he can't control space to allow himself to get into an advantageous position.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I've been observing this thread for a long time now and have yet to say a word in here, but I just have to know why most of y'all do not agree that Ryu is top tier, let alone even in the top 10???????

What don't you see? What don't you get? Why don't you understand?

Ever since the start, I have played a wide range of characters, from Robin to Shulk to Charizard to Mewtwo to Mii Swordfighter, but none of them come close to what I have found in Ryu. This character was CREATED for competitive play. There is no reason someone like myself, a COMPETITIVE player, should ever have to switch to another character again for tournament play. He has all the makings of greatness, yet so very few even use him.

I am not the greatest player myself, and my results show it. There's so much left to work on. But why am I one of, if not, the ONLY Ryu mains with any kind of results whatsoever? Why do my results have to hold so much weight with this character? There are SO many better players out there who can be doing what I'm doing with Ryu, but other than 9B.......where are they?

I believe that I am on the verge of the greatest discovery in Smash 4. I may very well be playing the best character in the game.

When I spotdodge a GRAB (literally the entirety of the metagame) and have enough frames to DTILT AND SHORYUKEN YOU AND KILL YOU AT 60% BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN PUT UP YOUR SHIELD.......who else has this?

When I punish a move with FRAME 1 SUPER ARMOR FOCUS ATTACK DASH CANCEL DAIR TO SHORYUKEN AND KILL YOU STARTING AT 40%.......hello? Yes this is Trela, can I help you?

When I confirm off of a Nair or Fair or Dtilt or Utilt in neutral for GUARANTEED 20%-40% THAT CAN LEAD TO YOUR DEATH BY A DAIR OR SHORYUKEN AS EARLY AS 60%.......I'm sorry, who the f**k are you again?

Hell, when I FRAME 1 INVINCIBILITY SHORYUKEN YOU THROUGH JUST ABOUT EVERY SINGLE ATTACK IN THE GAME AND KILL YOU AT, YOU GUESS IT, 60%.......what are you gonna do about it?

Other than my opponent literally being a better player than me.......what am I supposed to be afraid of?

"W-well you see Megaman can-"

LMAO WHO!?!?!?

"Pikachu can combo you with multi-hits and gimp you with relative ease!"

Pikachu can also die to Shoryuken as early as 50% with relative ease, but please, keep going.

"Olimar just keeps him out so well, like what can Ryu even do?"

>Hits a Pikmin with any move Ryu has
>hitlag keeps the move out for the rest of Smash 4's lifespan

Yes, please keep throwing Pikmin at me, I would like to have a word with them

I can keep going, and I will. 20SF will become a reality when I'm through with Ryu.

So go ahead; continue to believe Ryu doesn't have what it takes to truly win with consistency at the top level of play, because if I can't do it, someone else like 9B will. Don't sleep on the man.

Trela what have you DONE!!?!?!?!

Let them revel in their foolishness.

Our time is coming.

The time of the Dragon Clan.

 

[meleebrawler]

You can't deny Shulk has some serious potential as a stock tank with Shield. And it only gets better in customs with Decisive...

 

[Vipermoon]

@Trela I missed your post. I don't know if you were referencing what's on the first page because that is outdated. I've never seen anyone over here say that Ryu isn't top tier and imo he's top 3 atm.

 

[bc1910]

I've honestly thought Jiggly was the worst character in the game since like September. I like that people are changing their minds and realizing to be a good character in this game you actually have to have a functioning neutral.

Yeah I agree with this. Sometimes looking at the tier list is like looking at a ranking of neutrals from best to worst lol.

Notable exceptions include ZSS, MK and Ryu, none of whom have particularly strong neutral, but they make up for it with their ridiculous advantage states. On that topic, kill confirms are the second most important thing to succeed IMO, behind a functioning neutral. Again, looking at the tier list, there's a strong correlation between kill confirms and tier placement (though not as strong as the correlation between good neutral and tier placement).

 

[Spinosaurus]

@Trela I missed your post. I don't know if you were referencing what's on the first page because that is outdated. I've never seen anyone over here say that Ryu isn't top tier and imo he's top 3 atm.

He's asking why aren't there more Ryus that do work

and really

Why the hell aren't there more Ryus doing nasty work

 

[Nobie]

Ffamran is likely going to make a huge wall of text.

To save you the trouble of reading the whole thing, Falco may have a good advantage, but his neutral is poor. He can't control space effectively and his only options around midrange are moving and.... not much else. Sure reflector is a thing that's what again? -37 on shield and deals 5%? And of course when he inevitably loses neutral, his disadvantage sucks and he will be taking in huge punishes.

Really though, if it wasn't for mobility, Falco would be an amazing character but as it is now, he can't control space to allow himself to get into an advantageous position.

Wait, I wouldn't say that Falco has a bad neutral. You don't have a footsies game that even Fox has to be wary of and say that the character lacks a good neutral game. His slow ground speed is an issue but it's not a death sentence.

Trela what have you DONE!!?!?!?!

Let them revel in their foolishness.

Our time is coming.

The time of the Dragon Clan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fūrinkazan

 

[Locke 06]

@Trela I missed your post. I don't know if you were referencing what's on the first page because that is outdated. I've never seen anyone over here say that Ryu isn't top tier and imo he's top 3 atm.

Ryu is about as good as Mario. His design is good, but not stupid.


Edit: actually, I take it back. If falling aerial focus attack becomes meta, the character will be stupid. Lagless FA(DC) is really dumb and should be patched out. Lol.

 

[LancerStaff]

He's asking why aren't there more Ryus that do work

and really

Why the hell aren't there more Ryus doing nasty work

Probably because they're afraid he'll get nerfed or a bad matchup will become too apparent...

 

[TTTTTsd]

There aren't more Ryus cause he takes a lot of work to do at a top level.

The few that we have are more than enough in terms of proof, however. Although 20SF would be awesome in the future haha.