Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Sinister Slush]

Problems killing even with his whole "Jab Usmash though!" that works like 3/10 of the time.
Noticeable lag on moves that people don't seem to notice somehow (dair neutral b downb bair fair etc.), he has some fast moves like nair Uair dilt but 2 of those are never killing anytime soon.

Most of his kills is throwing out fair and praying it lands on opponents whether it's spamming the move in the air hoping for a spike, or throwing it out everywhere in neutral hoping the sourspot lands and kills them at like 120ish%.
In a game where shielding rolling and grabs/grab combos are essential, it's really hard when Yoshi has like the 2nd worst roll in the game, slowest and laggiest grabs + absolutely no chance to get a kill from a throw ever unless past 400+%, and gets no reward from landing one if he does, his most damaging throw being 7% doesn't help when some people have like 12% or more. Has problems dealing with opponents that realize most of his kills are vertical so they sit in shield all day preventing them from possible Usmash or Utilt into Uair kills.

The list goes on, but will say shieldstun changes helps him a bit but still would like a buff to his grabs lag or damage/knockback on any of his throws, that's all.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I just want to point out that a lot of Yoshi's attacks are actually disjointed. Specifically, everything that uses his tail or tongue, his legs during usmash, and his head during fsmash.

Disjoints and his tail/head based moves has been known to have invincibility and be disjointed since brawl. Tail part basically being no hurtboxes there.
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-rainbow-base-yoshis-hitbox-repository.308212/

 

[Locke 06]

When talking about Ryu, you need to know the game he comes from. Ran into a new local Ryu and my first question was "Who do you play in Street Fighter?" Unless you have a deep understanding of smash, if you go into Ryu knowing nothing about traditional fighters, it will show.

Spoiler: he mained Ken.

Super spoiler: Someone got Shoryu'd and it wasn't me.

Edit to make this post more insightful:

Ryu has every tool it takes to win. He's an incredibly good competitive pick and is one of the most rewarding characters to play and dedicate time into. As EL said, he's not going to lose at the character select screen, just like ZSS doesn't lose at the character select screen. Even vs Mega. But, I believe, he's just good. His abusable buttons, as Nobie said, aren't win buttons. Shoryu isn't a win button and neither is focus attack. Anyone who's played SF4 at a decent level knows Focus Attack is beatable/not abusable... Especially with Ryu's meh Focus Attack range. Albeit, I wish there was guard breaking properties on certain moves like Peach FAir or Sheik tipper usmash. If you get crumpled, you deserve it whatever punish Ryu decides to do. YOU messed up.

If you don't understand Ryu, he will wreck you. If you do, he's not too different from his source material, where he is not #1 for reasons. I do wish that cr.mk>Hado was safe though. :/

 

[v-Eos]

When talking about Ryu, you need to know the game he comes from. Ran into a new local Ryu and my first question was "Who do you play in Street Fighter?" Unless you have a deep understanding of smash, if you go into Ryu knowing nothing about traditional fighters, it will show.

Spoiler: he mained Ken.

Super spoiler: Someone got Shoryu'd and it wasn't me.

Edit to make this post more insightful:

Ryu has every tool it takes to win. He's an incredibly good competitive pick and is one of the most rewarding characters to play and dedicate time into. As EL said, he's not going to lose at the character select screen, just like ZSS doesn't lose at the character select screen. Even vs Mega. But, I believe, he's just good. His abusable buttons, as Nobie said, aren't win buttons. Shoryu isn't a win button and neither is focus attack. Anyone who's played SF4 at a decent level knows Focus Attack is beatable/not abusable... Especially with Ryu's meh Focus Attack range. Albeit, I wish there was guard breaking properties on certain moves like Peach FAir or Sheik tipper usmash. If you get crumpled, you deserve it whatever punish Ryu decides to do. YOU messed up.

If you don't understand Ryu, he will wreck you. If you do, he's not too different from his source material, where he is not #1 for reasons. I do wish that cr.mk>Hado was safe though. :/

I agree on most points but even if you haven't played Street Fighter at a competitive level (I believe that Trela hasn't), you can still be extremely successful with the character. The character is not as easy to play as most but it's far from "hard" in the grand scheme of things.

Furthermore, when you can kill pretty much every member of the cast with a move that has 4 true combos (U-Tilt, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Air), how is that NOT a win button? Focus Attack might not be a win button but it's certainly a prolific tool that can be used often and still not be overused.

 

[Locke 06]

I agree on most points but even if you haven't played Street Fighter at a competitive level (I believe that Trela hasn't), you can still be extremely successful with the character. The character is not as easy to play as most but it's far from "hard" in the grand scheme of things.

Furthermore, when you can kill pretty much every member of the cast with a move that has 4 true combos (U-Tilt, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Air), how is that NOT a win button? Focus Attack might not be a win button but it's certainly a prolific tool that can be used often and still not be overused.

Trela understands smash. You can see it in his play and even in his talking about Ryu. Understanding that spotdodge>dtilt>TSRK is really stupid good isn't something someone who doesn't understand smash would hype about. Thankfully, he has one of the worst spotdodges in the game. #welldesignedcharacter

For reference, I, in no way, have played SF on a competitive level. I enjoy SF4 a ton, understand the game, but I'm not competitive against people who mainly play that game. I can play a decent neutral game, but I'm not getting out of the corner against a real SF player, nor am I stringing together long combos with technical links. I know the basics, and that's what Ryu is. Easy to learn, hard to master.

TSRK isn't a win button because utilt and jab have 0 range. Utilt is "close light punch." Jab>TSRK is hard to hitconfirm into, meaning if you're unsure that jab is going to hit, you're more likely to mess up the link.

D-Air is a really awkward aerial approach... It's a combo tool for sure, but good luck landing that on someone in neutral. Dtilt is really good, because Ryu is FOOTSIES. It's not like he's going to walk>dtilt>tsrk you. His Cr. MK (hard dtilt) and sweep (dsmash) are more potent tools in neutral. Light dtilt is if you are stupid and get into his face in a punishable situation. NAir>TSRK is probably a more common kill setup at a high level, but you might as well be playing Fox.

As a Mega Man player, I know how good TSRK is. It's really freaking good. Shield drop>dtilt>TSRK is really good and better than Shield drop>utilt. But it's not a win button because it takes thought and effort to use effectively and is hilariously unsafe except in select situations (same with Mega's utilt). You can't fast fall while falling with it, because of good character design. Like I said, he will destroy you if you do not respect him. If you fall with a laggy aerial, use something that is focus bait, or disrespect his personal space, you will be punished hard. He's a no nonsense character.


Edit: I'm by no means a Ryu master, or have I fully explored the character and sat down and analyzed high level play (NAir plane looks dumb) so I'm more than happy to be wrong. However, this is my competitive impression of Ryu. He's good.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Hey guys,

Quick question. Who are the characters that are top and high-tiers at this point in the metagame (patch 1.1.1)? Imo, they are :
S :
A+ :
A :
A- :
What do you guys think about it? Tell me if I miss any character or is it fine?

Never admit to anyone that you think Ness is top 5.

Espicially not on this thread

 

[Nobie]

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I just want to point out that a lot of Yoshi's attacks are actually disjointed. Specifically, everything that uses his tail or tongue, his legs during usmash, and his head during fsmash.

Sorry, what I meant was "lack of large disjoints."

 

[Trifroze]

What makes SF harder to learn than Smash is not related to whatever transferred over to Smash 4 Ryu. He's just as easy to pick up for the casual player as the rest of the characters, just a bit harder to master than most if not all.

 

[meleebrawler]

When talking about Ryu, you need to know the game he comes from. Ran into a new local Ryu and my first question was "Who do you play in Street Fighter?" Unless you have a deep understanding of smash, if you go into Ryu knowing nothing about traditional fighters, it will show.

Spoiler: he mained Ken.

Super spoiler: Someone got Shoryu'd and it wasn't me.

Edit to make this post more insightful:

Ryu has every tool it takes to win. He's an incredibly good competitive pick and is one of the most rewarding characters to play and dedicate time into. As EL said, he's not going to lose at the character select screen, just like ZSS doesn't lose at the character select screen. Even vs Mega. But, I believe, he's just good. His abusable buttons, as Nobie said, aren't win buttons. Shoryu isn't a win button and neither is focus attack. Anyone who's played SF4 at a decent level knows Focus Attack is beatable/not abusable... Especially with Ryu's meh Focus Attack range. Albeit, I wish there was guard breaking properties on certain moves like Peach FAir or Sheik tipper usmash. If you get crumpled, you deserve it whatever punish Ryu decides to do. YOU messed up.

If you don't understand Ryu, he will wreck you. If you do, he's not too different from his source material, where he is not #1 for reasons. I do wish that cr.mk>Hado was safe though. :/

Well, to be fair there ARE moves that beat focus which aren't grabs or multihits... they're just in the realm of Bowser fsmash or Warlock Punch strength.

 

[Zage]

Ryu is definitely better than I originally though, top tier material for sure. He's clearly different from other Smash characters not only in mechanics, but he has the ability to outright kill you for mistakes or overextending in ways that you would normally get away with against other characters, not many players are used to this yet.

Also, why is everyone using street fighter notation all of the sudden? It just serves to confuse those who haven't played it. I mean yeah, I get it, you played Street Fighter and have some degree of knowledge when it comes to Ryu. Can't we just stick to weak/strong tilts?

 

[Ffamran]

That's great and all for Villager, bust most characters don't go for multiple aerials in a single jump because it's impractical.

Sheik's F-Air has 28 frames of recovery if she's stuck in the air, but if she lands after 6 frames she auto cancels so who cares. Even if she lands before it auto cancels, she has 10 frames of landing lag. She doesn't lose those frames in recovery just for landing.

Villager's aerials are amazing, I'm not questioning that, but talking about them like that doesn't say a terrible amount if you want to compare them to other characters, since Villager plays radically different from the rest of the cast.

The point was, "Wow, I didn't know that about Villager." People talk about end lag this and start up this, but people don't really talk about recovery frames. I mean, we get it; Shulk's Up Smash takes 18 frames to start and 67 frames to end, but if you factor in its active frames and figure out its recovery frames, Shulk only has 38 frames of recovery which isn't really bad. What's bad is something like Samus having 61 frames of recovery on her pivot grab while ZSS has 51. Samus being the less mobile character who doesn't have the massive rewards from grabs ZSS gets just adds onto the issue. Or pointing out how Ryu's light Ftilt makes his foot partially invincible and heavy Utilt makes his upper body partially invincible. With a Ftilt poke like that, Ryu can challenge a lot of characters, particularly non-weapon users with well-spaced light Ftilts. No character has that outside of maybe Yoshi, but he doesn't have Ryu's light Ftilt range. Finding out or connecting stuff like it with the game creates an, "Ooooh! So that's why...", moment.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I read somewhere in here about how Peach fair is broken. All I am gonna say is if you are getting hit over and over by a 16 frame move, that is your fault. Don't blame the character for your actions. Leave the move be and let me do **** like this in relaxation:

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Edit: I misread the chart, disregard this

 

[Mario766]

The point was, "Wow, I didn't know that about Villager." People talk about end lag this and start up this, but people don't really talk about recovery frames. I mean, we get it; Shulk's Up Smash takes 18 frames to start and 67 frames to end, but if you factor in its active frames and figure out its recovery frames, Shulk only has 38 frames of recovery which isn't really bad. What's bad is something like Samus having 61 frames of recovery on her pivot grab while ZSS has 51. Samus being the less mobile character who doesn't have the massive rewards from grabs ZSS gets just adds onto the issue. Or pointing out how Ryu's light Ftilt makes his foot partially invincible and heavy Utilt makes his upper body partially invincible. With a Ftilt poke like that, Ryu can challenge a lot of characters, particularly non-weapon users with well-spaced light Ftilts. No character has that outside of maybe Yoshi, but he doesn't have Ryu's light Ftilt range. Finding out or connecting stuff like it with the game creates an, "Ooooh! So that's why...", moment.

38 frames of recovery is rather bad actually.

That's Ike level, and we all know how bad Ike's smash attacks are on block or whiff. *Ike's Up Smash has 40. Aether only has 37, when used on the ground.*

Can we talk about how Dedede's F-Smash is so absurdly better than Ike's F-Smash that it has only 35 frames of recovery, does more damage and it being frame 40+ means nothing because having attacks over frame 20 is already considered really slow anyways.

 

[TTTTTsd]

38 frames of recovery is rather bad actually.

That's Ike level, and we all know how bad Ike's smash attacks are on block or whiff. *Ike's Up Smash has 40. Aether only has 37, when used on the ground.*

Can we talk about how Dedede's F-Smash is so absurdly better than Ike's F-Smash that it has only 35 frames of recovery, does more damage and it being frame 40+ means nothing because having attacks over frame 20 is already considered really slow anyways.

Considering DeDeDe has the worst airspeed in the game and also moves significanly slower than Ike alongside having all these other problems I think his FSmash being better is more than fair =P.

Do note that you have more chances to flub Dedede FSmash too because it has sour-spots during certain points of the swing, if Ike's FSmash hits you at any point during it at like the base or most of the sword it works the same, but DeDeDe during the swing has some....funky stuff going on.

 

[williamsga555]

Dedede's f smash is basically a scare tactic under certain trap scenarios. You throw it out to put them on the spot with a terrifyingly strong move. They react wrong, they either die at 40% or they eat a bit of damage from the sourspot. They react correctly and you eat a similar punish to what you would have been given from any other move because Dedede.

Never throw it out randomly though. 40+ frame startup is still awful.

 

[Nu~]

It's okay as a ledge trap tool in conjunction with gordos...

But it's downright awful in nuetral.

 

[Vipermoon]

It helps that that Fsmash is entirely safe on shield and almost safe on whiff.

 

[Ffamran]

38 frames of recovery is rather bad actually.

That's Ike level, and we all know how bad Ike's smash attacks are on block or whiff. *Ike's Up Smash has 40. Aether only has 37, when used on the ground.*

Can we talk about how Dedede's F-Smash is so absurdly better than Ike's F-Smash that it has only 35 frames of recovery, does more damage and it being frame 40+ means nothing because having attacks over frame 20 is already considered really slow anyways.

Well, Fox, Falco, Samus, Sheik, and Roy all have +36 frames of recovery and their Up Smashes all range from good to mediocre. I'll have the full data sometime tonight if anyone's interested. Also, being tired makes me see numbers as all a blur of stuff. Only thing that stands out right now in my head is Ganondorf's 18 frames of recovery on Up Smash. That's equivalent to most jab recoveries.

 

[Kaladin]

Well, Fox, Falco, Samus, Sheik, and Roy all have +36 frames of recovery and their Up Smashes all range from good to mediocre. I'll have the full data sometime tonight if anyone's interested. Also, being tired makes me see numbers as all a blur of stuff. Only thing that stands out right now in my head is Ganondorf's 18 frames of recovery on Up Smash. That's equivalent to most jab recoveries.

Out of curiosity:
1. How are you testing this?
2. Don't we already have all of this frame data?

 

[Jehtt]

Out of curiosity:
1. How are you testing this?
2. Don't we already have all of this frame data?

Yeah, we do.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Fox
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Falco
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Samus
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Sheik
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy

U-Smash data:
Fox: Starts on: 8. Final active frame: 11 (weak). FAF: 5. Cooldown from last frame: 45

Falco (multihit): Starts on 8. Final active frame: 20. FAF: 50. Cooldown from last frame: 30

Samus (multihit): Starts on: 11. Final active frame: 28. FAF: 57. Cooldown from last frame: 29

Sheik: Starts on 11. Final active frame: 15 (weak). FAF: 53. Cooldown from last frame: 38

Roy (multihit): Starts on 12. Final active frame: 23. FAF: 59. Cooldown from last frame: 36

Ganon: Starts on 21. Final active frame: 23. FAF: 42. Cooldown from last frame: 19

 

[Rizen]

Peach's Fair is far from broken but man does it have range. Speaking of Peach, where would you guys rank her? She has a good tool kit but I don't know how she fares against top tiers. I've heard people say she's a secret top tier at some point. For now I'd guess the OP is right ranking her in the notable category.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Low high tier.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sloooow again... Might as well throw some more frame data onto the pile.

Pit Usmash (multihit) Starts on 6. Last active frame is 18. FAF of 52 and has 34 frames of cooldown. Kills Mario at like 100% without rage too.

 

[Nu~]

Sloooow again... Might as well throw some more frame data onto the pile.

Pit Usmash (multihit) Starts on 6. Last active frame is 18. FAF of 52 and has 34 frames of cooldown. Kills Mario at like 100% without rage too.

But doesn't like to connect on the ground...

 

[LancerStaff]

But doesn't like to connect on the ground...

Actually it does, but the range is kinda short. Kinda like Samus's but Pit slides a decent ways and people almost never fall out of it if they get hit by it. If you know the opponent's animations or if they're just tall it works well as a punish.

 

[Vipermoon]

You guys are calculating cooldown wrong. The FAF/IASA is the first frame you can act out of something so you can't subtract from there. What you do is take the end frame minus the last active frame. Basically, all of your cooldowns are 1 frame too high.

 

[bc1910]

IASA/FAF is an overcomplication. Always has been, always will be. People who play any other fighter just call it "ending lag", "recovery time" or, y'know, something else that's sensible.

The following is true for 99% of moves: do a move and hold block. The ending lag is however long it takes before your block comes up, after the attack's last frame of having a hitbox.

No-one cares how long a move actually takes to let your character return to idle.

I don't know why the archaic FAF/IASA definition is still used.

 

[zblaqk]

Actually it does, but the range is kinda short. Kinda like Samus's but Pit slides a decent ways and people almost never fall out of it if they get hit by it. If you know the opponent's animations or if they're just tall it works well as a punish.

Samus' upsmash can only connect on the ground if the target is tall enough and samus is a tall lady

 

[Ghostbone]

IASA/FAF is an overcomplication. Always has been, always will be. People who play any other fighter just call it "ending lag", "recovery time" or, y'know, something else that's sensible.

The following is true for 99% of moves: do a move and hold block. The ending lag is however long it takes before your block comes up, after the attack's last frame of having a hitbox.

No-one cares how long a move actually takes to let your character return to idle.

I don't know why the archaic FAF/IASA definition is still used.

IASA is very relevant for aerials/air-dodges because they will often go into their landing lag if the animation is still going even though you can interrupt them with a jump/aerial by then anyway.

You also can't drop through a platform while the animation of a move is still going iirc, so it's not like IASA means you can do anything, just most things.
Animations can also change a character's hurtboxes in a meaningful fashion.

It's not a useless term.

 

[Ffamran]

Out of curiosity:
1. How are you testing this?
2. Don't we already have all of this frame data?

Edit: If I did that to multi-hit moves... For example: Luigi's dash attack would have 65 recovery frame... Which is insane when you think about it. Also, 2-4 frame gaps are pretty much inconsequential with almost all multi-hits; you can't really punish them... So, instead, it'll be 27 recovery frames with his dash attack being considered frame 4-48 instead of 4, 10, 16, 22, 29, 37, and 48. Time to go through everyone's frame data again...

Recovery frames is (total frames + 1) - (startup + active frames) or total frames + 1 - startup - active frames. Recovery takes into account all frames your move is inactive, so Zelda's jab hits on frames 11, 13, and 15, meaning it only has 3 active frames, 1 per hit. There are 2 frame gaps which are accounted for, so instead of the incorrect (23 + 1) - (11 + 6) = 7 if we considered her jab as frame 11-15 which would mean it has 6 active frames instead of 3. I think correct method is (23 + 1) - (11 + 3) = 10. Multi-hits are annoying...

If you don't want to add 1 to total frames, then use IASA and FAF. So, with Zelda's again, it's just IASA or FAF - (startup + active frames) which is just 24 - (11 + 3) = 10 or 24 - 11 - 3 = 10; IASA/FAF - startup - active frames.

Do we have this data? Yes and no. We technically have recovery frames, but we don't have them listed anywhere. So, for example, while we know that Ganondorf's Up Smash has a startup of 21 and total frames of 41, we don't have recovery frames listed anywhere or even active frames - we usually have stuff like Ganondorf's Up Smash is frames 21-23. We can only assume that yes, Ganondorf's Up Smash has low recovery, but we can also make bad assumptions like that Ganondorf's Up Smash has IASA frames which is both true and not because it's misused as if it were a jab or controlled multi-hit move and has a transition window letting Ganondorf immediately "cancel" Up Smash which doesn't exist. We are also missing random data like Roy's air acceleration, Link's grab frames?, and air time for pretty much everyone.

IASA/FAF is an overcomplication. Always has been, always will be. People who play any other fighter just call it "ending lag", "recovery time" or, y'know, something else that's sensible.

The following is true for 99% of moves: do a move and hold block. The ending lag is however long it takes before your block comes up, after the attack's last frame of having a hitbox.

No-one cares how long a move actually takes to let your character return to idle.

I don't know why the archaic FAF/IASA definition is still used.

I agree with IASA and FAF being completely unnecessary. No fighting game uses terms like those; they default to total frames and assume you know the next frame, the + 1, is when you can act instead of having IASA and FAF do that and then confuse people as there's 3 terms for basically the same thing that is also misused or can be applied to something else like IASA can be applied to jabs and controlled multi-hit moves. That could lead to something like this: all hypothetical, "Fox's jab 1 has an IASA of 18 and has an IASA of 10 to transition into jab 2". Er... What? Or even something like "Link's jab 1 had its IASA removed". That could have 2 meanings: Link's jab is so broken that he doesn't even have recovery anymore or Link's jab is so broken that if he uses jab 1, he's stuck in an infinite amount of recovery.

Now, here's the thing, despite other fighting games using total frames, they don't really care about that unless you're looking for pure animation stuff. What they do care about? Recovery. Recovery is the amount of frames when an attack no longer has active hitboxes and the time in frames before you can choose another action again. You do need to know total frames to calculate it, but after that, total frames kind of is there - either it's listed or not. It's like in a RPG where you do a move and there is a cooldown showing say, 1 second. You don't need to know that it took exactly 1.237 seconds for the entire animation to play out; all you need to know is that there is a 1 second cooldown before you can do the move again.

Also, people do care about how long it takes for their character to return to idle. If they didn't, would people be willingly to use projectiles leisurely? Even without knowing exactly how much time, if you feel a projectile takes way too much time to recovery and you're getting little reward, it's not worth it at all. Knowing each part of a move: startup, active, recovery, and total frames are useful for players not just for their own character, but for other characters. If you knew you had a complete second to punish Samus's pivot grab, you would abuse the hell out of that rather than guessing that you could punish Toon Link's Up Smash only to find out he takes less than a half a second to recover - Toon Link's Up Smash has 25 recovery frames. Then you have to factor in hitboxes, how hitboxes interact, hit angles, etc. You don't have to remember everything or know exactly what everything is, but just having an idea or a reference is helpful.

 

[Locke 06]

People can look up their own frame data, Ffam. You don't need to spoon feed it to them. If someone has an issue with how data is presented, they can look at it and present it differently. It's the beautiful thing about data, you can interpret it however you like, but at the end of the day it's still the same. No matter how you describe recovery, FAF, IASA, it hits on a certain frame and you can do something on a certain later frame.

 

[Wiimas123]

[QUOTE="Mewtwo - Chainz, post: 20402192, member: 330099" Anyway, what do you guys think of Lucario? I always thought he was a high tier character, potentially top tier in the hands of gutsy but smart player. But I have not seen any of the top lucarios at tourneys, or any lucarios in general, which baffles me.[/QUOTE]
I think he's pretty underwhelming he has some good moves but really he's a gimmicky character with a horrible gimmick. Basically the more damage he takes the more damage he does. The reason it's so bad is because by the time he gets his aura big he's in kill percentage or near it.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I think he's pretty underwhelming he has some good moves but really he's a gimmicky character with a horrible gimmick. Basically the more damage he takes the more damage he does. The reason it's so bad is because by the time he gets his aura big he's in kill percentage or near it.

I disagree. Lucario is heavy and has top 20 recovery, so it's not as easy to KO him as you might think. He can also do some good camping with Aura Sphere and Force Palm at any section of the stage.

 

[Wiimas123]

Peach's Fair is far from broken but man does it have range. Speaking of Peach, where would you guys rank her? She has a good tool kit but I don't know how she fares against top tiers. I've heard people say she's a secret top tier at some point. For now I'd guess the OP is right ranking her in the notable category.

Personally I think she's mid A or high A-. She's usually not played as because she is one of, if not the hardest character to master.

 

[TheJolteon]

I disagree. Lucario is heavy and has top 20 recovery, so it's not as easy to KO him as you might think. He can also do some good camping with Aura Sphere and Force Palm at any section of the stage.

When it comes to killing Lucario someone like a heavy or Little mac can kill Lucario even before he can get his aura. A character that can reflect can also beat lucario because they can reflect aura sphere.

 

[Wiimas123]

I disagree. Lucario is heavy and has top 20 recovery, so it's not as easy to KO him as you might think. He can also do some good camping with Aura Sphere and Force Palm at any section of the stage.

Lucario is midweight which makes him relatively easy to kill. His recovery's good but it's not the only way to kill somebody. Any good player or a character with reflect can get past his Aura sphere. He isn't near the worst. But he certainly isn't top or mid tier. I consider him C or C-.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I would put Lucario at 24th. He's top tier at max aura, but the problem is that he useally doesn't stay at high percents that long before being KOed, so his aura is weak a lot.

 

[Ffamran]

People can look up their own frame data, Ffam. You don't need to spoon feed it to them. If someone has an issue with how data is presented, they can look at it and present it differently. It's the beautiful thing about data, you can interpret it however you like, but at the end of the day it's still the same. No matter how you describe recovery, FAF, IASA, it hits on a certain frame and you can do something on a certain later frame.

I know, but I wanted to check out everyone's recovery frames and post it somewhere for reference.

 

[NegaNixx]

I have Lucario ranked 22nd (B) and Peach Ranked 17th (B+)

Both are regional level threats with decent representation but struggle (relatively) at nationals.

Peach has a general problem at approaching while she excels in edge guarding and stuffing moves, as well as having a decent disadvantage state utilizing float and N-Air, B-Air and a solid advantage state.

Lucario has Aura which means he's never out of the game. He's relatively heavy with a good recovery distance wise. His low percent combo game is fine, he has a solid confirm into U-Smash with Aura Sphere Charge. Aura Sphere is also good for covering tech situations and pressuring off stage.

Both have some of the best shield pressure in the game.

 

[Ghostbone]

Lucario is midweight which makes him relatively easy to kill.

When almost all the top tiers are lightweights, Lucario is relatively hard to kill.

Any good player or a character with reflect can get past his Aura sphere. He isn't near the worst. But he certainly isn't top or mid tier. I consider him C or C-.

Lucario is a lot more than just aura sphere lmao. Aura sphere charge is the threatening part of that move, not the aura sphere itself most of the time (which you don't need a reflector to deal with, just perfect shield).
When the aura sphere itself is used it's catching ledge options or landing lag or something and reflectors won't save you there lol.