Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[TheJolteon]

Sonic does lose to the quite a few of top tiers but it is to be expected. I say Maybe characters that have p

This is random but I'm lookin at DK's frame data and...

why the **** does this character have intangibility on D-tilt from frame 1? Super safe, fast poke that can lead to death confirms from grab.

Actually all of DK's tilts are intangible, as are his smashes and Uair. I just went from respecting DK's char design to feeling DK is hella fraudulent.

The **** was Sakurai thinking.

And Ganondorf over here with not one intangible poke.

Character balance...HOW DO YOU HAS IT?!?!?!

At least someone has finally noticed that all of Dk's tilts are insanely fast and good moves. As someone who plays DK I would know that if you down tilt and the opponent trips, you can get a massive follow up that can lead to death.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm just saying like...in Guilty Gear, Street Fighter x
Tekken, etc the pokes with intangibility are usually Anti-Air moves meant to aid in neutral.

They are not grounded buttons that are safe on block and can lead to death or huge damage confirms. The closest thing is Slayer from Guilty Gear, but he has limitations in mobility and although he has several invincible pokes on the ground, his confirms don't really come from those.

Though now that I think about it...DK IS Smash 4 Slayer. Intangible pokes, simple confirms that lead to lots of damage. Very scary grab game. They both wear ties too.

 

[Smog Frog]

eh. i'd say only loses to and maybe . i havent been following her though. what are the recent results like?

 

[Wintropy]

This is random but I'm lookin at DK's frame data and...

why the **** does this character have intangibility on D-tilt from frame 1? Super safe, fast poke that can lead to death confirms from grab.

Actually all of DK's tilts are intangible, as are his smashes and Uair. I just went from respecting DK's char design to feeling DK is hella fraudulent.

The **** was Sakurai thinking.

And Ganondorf over here with not one intangible poke.

Character balance...HOW DO YOU HAS IT?!?!?!

This is the reason I don't win tournaments. Best player in my scene plays DK and, well, yeah. If he doesn't want you gettin' in, you ain't gettin' in.

The only thing that really holds him back from being a truly good character, in my opinion, is his disadvantage. If you can get in, it's very difficult for him to reset.

 

[DblCrest]

I've always hated how his Uptilt works in every game.

 

[kaz99]

• Slightly loses to imo: (AKA braindead)

Sonic is one of Ness' worst match ups

 

[bc1910]

Several Sonic players, including Seagull if I'm not mistaken, think Sonic is even with Sheik. I've seen either character win that MU numerous times.

There's a decent amount of evidence that Sonic loses to ZSS, I feel confident in saying she's his worst MU. Ike is probably second based on evidence. In theory it doesn't make sense (how does Ike catch Sonic?) but in practice he corners Sonic pretty well and obviously has an easier time killing.

I would say Sonic only loses to ZSS for sure though. Considering Rosalina seems to lose to Sheik and ZSS for sure, plus maybe some others I'm forgetting, it's easy to see how Sonic could be 3rd in the game.

 

[Man Li Gi]

This is random but I'm lookin at DK's frame data and...

why the **** does this character have intangibility on D-tilt from frame 1? Super safe, fast poke that can lead to death confirms from grab.

Actually all of DK's tilts are intangible, as are his smashes and Uair. I just went from respecting DK's char design to feeling DK is hella fraudulent.

The **** was Sakurai thinking.

And Ganondorf over here with not one intangible poke.

Character balance...HOW DO YOU HAS IT?!?!?!

This is the reason I don't win tournaments. Best player in my scene plays DK and, well, yeah. If he doesn't want you gettin' in, you ain't gettin' in.

The only thing that really holds him back from being a truly good character, in my opinion, is his disadvantage. If you can get in, it's very difficult for him to reset.

I've always hated how his Uptilt works in every game.

Ah yes, the DK salt or rather confusion. Don't let it fool you though. DK has easily the worst ledge get up options with a low and slow ledge jump, hurtbox exposed throughout the ledge animation, a bad ledge attack, and bad ledge roll and bad ledge neutral get up.

Let's not forget how there are still gaps in hitboxes like his utilt, dtilt, ftilt, jab, fsmash (while they it is way better, it still misses), usmash still struggles to exist, and then dsmash losing it's utility as an anti air due to removing the frame where it hits above him. Seriously, be glad that dsmash lost its hitbox above him as it stands, the move covers ledge options pretty well except jump approaches as it goes below the stage with his fists.

He overall has lost power from brawl and survivability, but gained a kill confirm and a better footsie game.

Also, Wintropy, Pit really can cover all DK's options if played right. DK can't cover landings and is just bad at approaching. Baits and overall just waiting works wonders. DK losing to characters with better footsies or mobility overall (hence why he loses to Fox so hard cuz he better mobility and Footsy).

Don't get it twisted, I know DK is good, but he has such flaws and a rather simple design, but where he strives is the fact that there are layers and mindgames that can change the tide of the match.

https://youtu.be/QfE
Here I am playing the MU.

Game 1 the Pit played it right, but notice game 2 and game three and see what he did wrong.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bruh. **** all that. Intangible pokes should not lead to death.

There is no justification for that horse****.

It's bad game design and EVERYONE in this thread is intelligent enough to know that.

 

[Wintropy]

Ah yes, the DK salt or rather confusion. Don't let it fool you though. DK has easily the worst ledge get up options with a low and slow ledge jump, hurtbox exposed throughout the ledge animation, a bad ledge attack, and bad ledge roll and bad ledge neutral get up.

Let's not forget how there are still gaps in hitboxes like his utilt, dtilt, ftilt, jab, fsmash (while they it is way better, it still misses), usmash still struggles to exist, and then dsmash losing it's utility as an anti air due to removing the frame where it hits above him. Seriously, be glad that dsmash lost its hitbox above him as it stands, the move covers ledge options pretty well except jump approaches as it goes below the stage with his fists.

He overall has lost power from brawl and survivability, but gained a kill confirm and a better footsie game.

Also, Wintropy, Pit really can cover all DK's options if played right. DK can't cover landings and is just bad at approaching. Baits and overall just waiting works wonders. DK losing to characters with better footsies or mobility overall (hence why he loses to Fox so hard cuz he better mobility and Footsy).

Don't get it twisted, I know DK is good, but he has such flaws and a rather simple design, but where he strives is the fact that there are layers and mindgames that can change the tide of the match.

https://youtu.be/QfE
Here I am playing the MU.

Game 1 the Pit played it right, but notice game 2 and game three and see what he did wrong.

Oh, I know, and it's nothing to do with salt or confusion. I know that I'm just consistently outplayed. I'm just wondering if it's healthy that he has such a "simple design". I mean, he's no pre-patch Luigi, but his gameplan does seem to be centralised on his grab game and I don't know if that's a good thing or it's overcompensating for his other weaknesses. He's got good options, but he isn't really consistent in that sense. I don't know if that's good balance or a case of inherent contrasts making the character polarising.

Then again, I don't know how you'd balance superheavies without basing them on inherent binary oppositions (very big and very strong, very vulnerable and very slow). Weight is an important factor in Smash, since it's a big consideration when determining a character's survivability, so when you've got a character that's so heavy they take forever to die, you need to balance it somehow. Speed reduction is a common trend and a defining feature of superheavies in the other Smashes, but in this game, at least three of them (DK, Bowser and Charizard) have decent speed for their size and their frame data isn't really that bad. What tends to kill them is the fact that they don't have universally safe options, their their size makes them combo food and / or they have no reliable way to reset to neutral. They're defined by great advantage, terrible disadvantage and weak neutral. They're scuppered in neutral due to weak approaches or safe options, which means it's difficult to make use of their advantage, and they get put into disadvantage more easily. Consider then the fact that they tend to have a relatively small handful of good options, which simplifies their gameplan in neutral, and you've got characters that probably need a good (if overtuned) kill confirm to have any chance of viability; that or a total overhaul to their design, which would defeat the purpose of their character and just create a game where safety is predominant and variety is dead.

Thanks for the advice, though, I will bear it in mind. I don't doubt Pit wins the matchup, I just have difficulty exploiting DK where it counts, because one grab and you're in a very difficult place.

EDIT: Emblem Lord has a good point.

EDIT2: Video is broken.

 

[Mario766]

Ike handles Sonic by making spin dash unsafe at some ranges and has a huge ass sword with great coverage for when Sonic comes in. Coupled with his ok frame data and auto cancels he can cover Sonic's approach options and corner him into doing something. He also KOs much faster, withouta gimp.

 

[TheJolteon]

Bruh. **** all that. Intangible pokes should not lead to death.

There is no justification for that horse****.

It's bad game design and EVERYONE in this thread is intelligent enough to know that.

I don't think you have the right to complain considering you play Ryu who can get a kill confirm at 90, has a projectile, and really strong moves. If DK was complained about a lot then he wouldn't be mid tier. Also this is the one game where DK has kill confirms.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Ike definitely has a better match up than most characters against Sonic, but I'd rather go against Ike than Shiek or Rosa. As long as the sonic is good enough to not spam spin dash and the Ike doesn't throw out unsafe options, the slight overall advantage Ike has rarely affects who wins

 

[Man Li Gi]

Bruh. **** all that. Intangible pokes should not lead to death.

There is no justification for that horse****.

It's bad game design and EVERYONE in this thread is intelligent enough to know that.

Guess I should play a character that has frame 3 move invincible and transcendent move that can be combod from my jab, have a utilt lock, dtilt, and really any move in my aresenal. Have a super safe Nair that can bait and have fair come right after it. No way does a poke like stilt leads into death. Percent, yes, but death, it impossible as it stops tripping at around 60%. Don't wanna say something so mean, but I beg you to look at the character you play at see what I play. See what character makes top results in Smash 4 and what DK does. I mean, this kinda sounds like the Luigi argument, but he has MUCH less polarizing MUs and less ways to get the grab. But yes, he's so bad in character design cuz he has a poke.

 

[Mario766]

Rango just beat 6wx 2-0. 1st game Ryu 2nd game Sonic.

Sonic beats Ike guies.

 

[Wintropy]

Rango just beat 6wx 2-0. 1st game Ryu 2nd game Sonic.

Sonic beats Ike guies.

Is there footage of this? It does seem to contribute to Ike's consistent results vs Sonic.

'Grats Rango~

EDIT: God damn it the tag system is not my friend today.

 

[Mario766]

It was just on stream at Tipped off.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Guess I should play a character that has frame 3 move invincible and transcendent move that can be combod from my jab, have a utilt lock, dtilt, and really any move in my aresenal. Have a super safe Nair that can bait and have fair come right after it. No way does a poke like stilt leads into death. Percent, yes, but death, it impossible as it stops tripping at around 60%. Don't wanna say something so mean, but I beg you to look at the character you play at see what I play. See what character makes top results in Smash 4 and what DK does. I mean, this kinda sounds like the Luigi argument, but he has MUCH less polarizing MUs and less ways to get the grab. But yes, he's so bad in character design cuz he has a poke.

Ryu has to GIVE UP NEUTRAL to attempt a kill confirm unless his opponent did something idiotic. This is one of the reasons he is so awkward compared to top tiers like sheik and ZSS.

DK plays his regular game and can get a kill.

In THIS instance DK is sillier then Ryu. Is Ryu a superior character? **** yes. But Ryu cannot simply walk up to you and press buttons. Thats not his design. Not unless his opponent is just doing something wrong.

Block a srk from ryu he gets bodied. Block a dtilt from DK and..keep blocking I guess and deal with a mix-up?

TheJolteon

wtf does my char choice have to do with my ability to recognize BS? When Ryu first dropped I said he was BS and alot of you guys called me ridiculous. now you on the bandwagon? lol.

My issue is when something doesnt need to be EARNED. An intangible dtilt thats safe on block and intangible frame one is NOT ok.

But cool, lets throw **** at me because my char is crazy good even though it took yall jokers nearly half a year to get the memo. Ryu being stupid good doesnt invalidate my points. Stop scapegoating me because Ryu gives you nightmares.

Actually...I think im done here for awhile. **** am even doing in this thread anymore anyways.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, in many ways Mac is the same, but even more extreme. D-tilt (and in most matchups f-tilt) are totally safe on block when spaced decently, while being faster, stronger moves on a more mobile character.

Mac has a slew of disadvantages to go with his "press buttons and win" neutral, but then DK does too. Sure, DK is better than Mac, but apparently that's irrelevant.

 

[momochuu]

at what point do people stop thinking peach is a secret top tier and accept that she just isn't that good? she doesn't really give you the same reward for the work you put in, like ryu.

 

[LancerStaff]

Like, almost everybody is stupid in this game... You know it's bad when even Mario has dumb things like his ridiculously safe Usmash.

The only characters that don't have stupid options are (?) and , and even then most if not all of these guys are getting close.

 

[Kulty]

Sonic is one of Ness' worst match ups

I thought that Sonic gets destroyed because he can't deal with Ness spammable projectile and that Ness can kill Sonic early, since Sonic isn't a heavy character. Plus, Sonic can't combo Ness.

 

[Wintropy]

at what point do people stop thinking peach is a secret top tier and accept that she just isn't that good?

I've never seen anybody putting Peach at the top. High-tier, yeah, but I don't recall people (who know what they're talking about) saying she's Ryu-tier good.

she doesn't really give you the same reward for the work you put in, like ryu.

This is a good point, but I wonder if it's fair to compare her to Ryu. I don't think anybody has the kind of effort / reward ratio that Ryu does. A bit more effort than your typical character due to finicky inputs and neutral setups, you get a u-tilt lock that kill confirms at 90.

I get what you're saying, I'm just being pedantic.

 

[NegaNixx]

Peach does not have a problem at approaching. She has the most approach options in this game for one thing.

and what is this disadvantage state you speak of with float and nair?

By trouble approaching I meant she is capable of being walled out, not that she can't approach, I worded it wrong.

The N-Air part was in regards to OoS options, float was recovery wise. I didn't mean them all in conjunction I wasn't specific. I'm fine being wrong though. My Peach knowledge is a tad outdated. And I have the slightest feeling your Peach knowledge is a lot greater than mine

I still think there are 15/16 characters better than her but she's a solo viable character.

 

[Thinkaman]

at what point do people stop thinking peach is a secret top tier and accept that she just isn't that good? she doesn't really give you the same reward for the work you put in, like ryu.

I dunno, Peach's results seem pretty respectable for the few number of players she has.

I consider Peach one of the hardest characters in the game to pickup, alongside Rosalina, Ryu, and Shulk. The reward for Rosa and Ryu is not only enormous but super obvious. Peach's reward seems pretty high too (unlike Shulk), but it's way more subtle. Nothing about Peach jumps out and says "OH MAN, IF I COULD JUST MASTER THIS CHARACTER THEN--"

She's no Ryu, but I'm still a believer in high-tier peach.

Like, almost everybody is stupid in this game... You know it's bad when even Mario has dumb things like his ridiculously safe Usmash.
The only characters that don't have stupid options are (?) and , and even then most if not all of these guys are getting close.

I feel like I missed the memo when "good" moves became "stupid"; or is that the new word for "cheap" or "jank"? We seem to go through a lot of words to describe things we don't like fighting against.

Diddy uair, Luigi d-throw+nado kills, and Kong Cyclone were the only things in Smash 4 outside of bugs that ever felt truly "stupid" to me. Maybe Helicopter Kick, but it helps that it's attached to a fairly bad character.

Ness b-throw, Mario u-smash, and ZZS are the upper-limit of how good a move can be before I start raising an eyebrow. I'd consider a handful of things barely over this line, like Needles and Boost Kick, but at most I'll wrinkle my nose and move on.

I don't lose sleep over how good Needles or Boost Kick are, and I'm sure as hell not going to lose sleep over DK d-tilt.

 

[Jehtt]

Actually...I think im done here for awhile. **** am even doing in this thread anymore anyways.

Ok bye, don't come back

I thought that Sonic gets destroyed because he can't deal with Ness spammable projectile and that Ness can kill Sonic early, since Sonic isn't a heavy character. Plus, Sonic can't combo Ness.

PK Fire isn't a spammable projectile, especially against a character with mobility like Sonic. Also he has to do is perfect shield or jump over it and get a free punish. Ness can't even use it in the air because it goes diagonally.
Ness can kill Sonic early, yeah, but he usually has to get a grab first to do it and Sonic is hard to grab, which is even more true for Ness because his mobility is pretty poor.
Sonic doesn't have extravagant combos on anybody, and he doesn't really need them when he can run away after getting the hit.
Also, wouldn't Spring kind of wreck Sonic's recovery?
All of my knowledge about this MU comes from a Ness player I know so I haven't actually played it myself, but he tells me that it's pretty bad for Ness.

 

[momochuu]

I've never seen anybody putting Peach at the top. High-tier, yeah, but I don't recall people (who know what they're talking about) saying she's Ryu-tier good.



This is a good point, but I wonder if it's fair to compare her to Ryu. I don't think anybody has the kind of effort / reward ratio that Ryu does. A bit more effort than your typical character due to finicky inputs and neutral setups, you get a u-tilt lock that kill confirms at 90.

I get what you're saying, I'm just being pedantic.

i think even high tier is being too fair. I would put her at mid. She doesn't really have anything to be afraid of. She does good damage but what does it matter with mobility so bad.

 

[Jams.]

Diddy uair, Luigi d-throw+nado kills, and Kong Cyclone were the only things in Smash 4 outside of bugs that ever felt truly "stupid" to me. Maybe Helicopter Kick, but it helps that it's attached to a fairly bad character.

Ness b-throw, Mario u-smash, and ZZS are the upper-limit of how good a move can be before I start raising an eyebrow. I'd consider a handful of things barely over this line, like Needles and Boost Kick, but at most I'll wrinkle my nose and move on.

I don't lose sleep over how good Needles or Boost Kick are, and I'm sure as hell not going to lose sleep over DK d-tilt.

How do you feel about Timber Counter? I've personally always found the move distasteful because it has so little counterplay. You either try to hit Villager away from the sapling where it won't be a factor, or wait it out. The problem with the former solution is that interacting with Villager near trip sapling skews risk/reward in his favour, usually making this a bad decision. Waiting it out is much safer, but ultimately just drags on a match and creates very static gameplay. Other similar zoning tools such as hydrant, trampoline, mechakoopa, gyro, and banana have far more trade-offs and counterplay than Timber Counter.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Timber Counter is a poorly tuned move. If the sapling just lasted a fraction of the time, it'd be very legitimate and interesting. Alas.

Anyway, new thread with new posting guidelines! (please read 'em)

http://smashboards.com/threads/char...sions-tourneys-tiers-theories-tactics.422864/