Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

There's also Aura Sphere shield pressuring, Aura Sphere setups, outright Aura Sphere kills, and probably one of the strongest command grabs in the game, Force Palm, which also functions as a "projectile" or blade... thing. Also, the whole shield stun change probably benefited Lucario's normals as well.

 

[bc1910]

Lucario is BS incarnate. He simplifies matches to being little more than a coin flip.

You either outplay him and win, or outplay him and die to Aura Sphere anyway.

His inconsistency keeps him from being a top level threat, but **** me if he isn't harder to fight than most of the top tiers.

 

[Deleted member]

He simplifies matches to being little more than a coin flip.

Oh, so he's designed to reference the Trading Card Game! It all makes sense now!

 

[Wiimas123]

I have Lucario ranked 22nd (B) and Peach Ranked 17th (B+)

Both are regional level threats with decent representation but struggle (relatively) at nationals.

Peach has a general problem at approaching while she excels in edge guarding and stuffing moves, as well as having a decent disadvantage state utilizing float and N-Air, B-Air and a solid advantage state.

Lucario has Aura which means he's never out of the game. He's relatively heavy with a good recovery distance wise. His low percent combo game is fine, he has a solid confirm into U-Smash with Aura Sphere Charge. Aura Sphere is also good for covering tech situations and pressuring off stage.

Both have some of the best shield pressure in the game.

Personally, I completely disagree with this. First of all, Peach is way to low. Peach can edge guard really easily with her turnips but that's not only what they're for. They serve as great projectiles. While yes, they don't have great range they can still rack up a lot of damage. Peach also has a lot of combos. But they are very hard. That's the problem with Peach. She's not used often at all because she's so hard to play so people just dismiss her. Also, she has really good recovery. Her umbrella is great and her float makes her recovery so much better to the point where she's considered the queen of the recovery/air. She also has an insanely good kill move in F-air. Also, her Side-B is great for approaching but if you use it too often it will become predictable and you will get punished. I would consider her to be mid A.

Lucario has good recovery and an amazing projectile with Aura Sphere and... Nothing else. His moves are ok without aura and he needs his opponents to be relatively high in percent to kill him. When he has good aura he's pretty good. But Aura is a terrible gimmick. By the time Aura gets to a point where it's good he needs to be near kill percent. Which means by the time he's good he's basically dead. His wins are inconsistent and they depend on how bad the other player is. He's an extremely high risk high reward character. Because of this I think he's C or C-.

 

[Dre89]

Most non-top tiers simplify the game really

The lesser characters tend to be more gimmicky with fewer viable, and beating them revolves around respecting those few options and punishing everything else

 

[Ghostbone]

Oh, so he's designed to reference the Trading Card Game! It all makes sense now!

The TCG and the cartridge game lmao

 

[Ffamran]

Booyah! Finished everyone's recovery frames... well, all but their throw data since they're all on sixriver, but not really anywhere else that I know of, so I'd have to list those all, and blah, blah, blah, more work. Notes: Mega Man's jab, Ftilt, Nair, and Uair are considered projectiles, so they're kind of a bit weird, but still normal, Greninja apparently has 12 total frames instead of 56 if he hits with Dair, but computing that would lead to a negative recovery, Ness also has a similar thing with his Dtilt where if he hits with Dtilt again, he has 5 total frames instead of 13 if he chose to use another move, the Links have "or" to denote their different Side Smash parts, and all multi-hits are startup to last active frame regardless if they have notable gaps like most side to side Down Smashes or something like Falco's Nair which has irregular frame gaps unlike Zelda's, Fox's Fair, and other multi-hit moves. This is for simplicity's sake and because it would make it seem really odd that say, Luigi has +60 recovery frames because of his dash attack having multiple hits that only have 1 active frame per hit and 4? frame gaps. Oh, and Ryu's got his own page 'cause Ryu.

Edit: It's not loading is it...

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Never mind. Just forgot to publish it. Also, a reason why this is here and why I did this: eh, I just like looking at the intricacies of the game. Kind of cool to notice that there are trends, characters have similar recovery for certain types of moves, outliers like Greninja's st. grab low recovery or Olimar's pivot grab's low recovery, and just looking and comparing data.

 

[FullMoon]

Huh, Greninja has the second least recovery on his pivot grab, losing only to Olimar. That's interesting to know.

 

[C0rvus]

Huh, Greninja has the second least recovery on his pivot grab, losing only to Olimar. That's interesting to know.

It almost makes up for his infuriating standing grab.

Almost.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Huh, Greninja has the second least recovery on his pivot grab, losing only to Olimar. That's interesting to know.

I noticed that Kirby is also tied with Greninja in terms of the recovery frames on their pivot grabs. I did not realize Kirby's pivot grab had that little cool down lol

I'm going to assume Greninja's is longer ranged, though, given the start-up differences.

Yay, Kirby's finally one of the best at something other than jump count and pummels.

 

[Antonykun]

after some thought, I was considering about the value of Perfect pivoting in mii swordfighter's ground game PP up tilt sounds really nice

 

[Dre89]

It almost makes up for his infuriating standing grab.

Almost.

Habing a good pivot and dashgrab is way more important than having a good standard grab. Greninja has it very good in the grab department, at least in terms of landing grabs.

 

[Apeirohaon]

Habing a good pivot and dashgrab is way more important than having a good standard grab. Greninja has it very good in the grab department, at least in terms of landing grabs.

i wouldn't say way more; standard grab is important since it's one of your main oos options

 

[Antonykun]

i wouldn't say way more; standard grab is important since it's one of your main oos options

that reminds me that Greninja is my runner up for worst shield in Smash for having even less than normal viable OOS options

 

[DunnoBro]

Dash grab is most important, standing 2nd and pivot is least important. Having a good pivot grab means nothing if you have bad throws. (Hello bowser)

In the end how good your grab is depends heavily on your throws, though.

 

[Apeirohaon]

that reminds me that Greninja is my runner up for worst shield in Smash for having even less than normal viable OOS options

who's worst?

 

[Kaladin]

Wait... I just realized... How does Greninja punish things on his shield? He can't
-Shield grab
-Up B
-Nair
-Fair
-Bair
-Dair

And his up smash is really bad in that situation.

...I really don't understand this character.

 

[kj22]

Why is sonic considered to be in top 5 in the game?

 

[Teshie U]

Wait... I just realized... How does Greninja punish things on his shield? He can't
-Shield grab
-Up B
-Nair
-Fair
-Bair
-Dair

And his up smash is really bad in that situation.

...I really don't understand this character.

Shield drop into frame 2 jab if you need to hit ASAP. If you have a bit more time or greed, dash grab and dtilt are both quick, ranged and set up kills and combos.

 

[Dre89]

Dash grab is most important, standing 2nd and pivot is least important. Having a good pivot grab means nothing if you have bad throws. (Hello bowser)

In the end how good your grab is depends heavily on your throws, though.

Wtf pivot grab is like Bowser's second best move lol. And as for reward, two pummels and a bthrow is like 20%, which is nearly 1/4 of what he needs to kill you with reliable options.

i wouldn't say way more; standard grab is important since it's one of your main oos options

Shield grabs become less relevant as you go up the tier list and the skill ladder because characters and players become safer on shield.

Take Charizard for example, he has a great standing grab and a decent pivot grab. But against a Sheik or ZSS at a high level of play most of his grabs would be pivots.

 

[momochuu]

you aren't really supposed to be blocking as greninja anyway. you out move them and don't put yourself into a position to block in the first place, then you punish them for attempting to make you shield.

if you have to shield you probably messed up movement somewhere or you had no choice. from there you reset the situation back to neutral and keep doing what you were doing in the first place, which was probably throwing 200000 shurikens and spacing with fair.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja has one of the worst OoS games in the history of the series. His fastest option is shield drop jab which is active on frame 10, and jab only offers 7-9% guaranteed reward depending on the character you're fighting.

As far as punishing ranged stuff goes he's actually quite good, because of how long his dashgrab is. From a standing position he can grab someone several character lengths away.

His bad OoS game is a big weakness. But of course, you CAN still shield stuff and run away afterward. This is crucial against most of the cast. Sheik, Fox and maybe Pikachu are the only characters who I feel can fully abuse his bad OoS game because not only are their pokes safe on block, they have the mobility to catch him when he runs.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Shield grabs become less relevant as you go up the tier list and the skill ladder because characters and players become safer on shield.

This is very much true. At that point it becomes a lot about other things, such as strong OoS Up+Bs, smashes, you name it. Which is why having a good Up+B OoS option, no matter the character (stuff like Mario, Doc, ZARD ESPECIALLY) is basically universally accepted as better than having like, a good shieldgrab game. Smashes are more for stuff like people trying to shield crossup with essentially anything, which is why Plumber USmash OoS is solid.

However I don't think I'd like to totally undersell standard grab OoS, it's still a mostly valuable punish for missed spacing/mistakes, which is why having a good standing grab is never really a BAD thing. It's not a game changer but it's nice to have. I don't think someone like Greninja would turn down the offer if it showed up. Thankfully he has the best net mobility in the game (overall that is, as far as attributes line up. Correct me if I'm mistaken) so he generally never blocks frequently anyways.

The usefulness of a pivot grab adversely usually depends on stuff like mobility, dash speed, alongside how much your character can either scare someone into shield or force a commitment that you can punish with a pivot (former more often than not). In saying this, yes I think Bowser's pivot grab is very relevantly good. His throws aren't godlike or incredible especially not by the standards of this game but they're decent enough for damage.

 

[Dre89]

This is very much true. At that point it becomes a lot about other things, such as strong OoS Up+Bs, smashes, you name it. Which is why having a good Up+B OoS option, no matter the character (stuff like Mario, Doc, ZARD ESPECIALLY) is basically universally accepted as better than having like, a good shieldgrab game. Smashes are more for stuff like people trying to shield crossup with essentially anything, which is why Plumber USmash OoS is solid.

However I don't think I'd like to totally undersell standard grab OoS, it's still a mostly valuable punish for missed spacing/mistakes, which is why having a good standing grab is never really a BAD thing. It's not a game changer but it's nice to have. I don't think someone like Greninja would turn down the offer if it showed up. Thankfully he has the best net mobility in the game (overall that is, as far as attributes line up. Correct me if I'm mistaken) so he generally never blocks frequently anyways.

The usefulness of a pivot grab adversely usually depends on stuff like mobility, dash speed, alongside how much your character can either scare someone into shield or force a commitment that you can punish with a pivot (former more often than not). In saying this, yes I think Bowser's pivot grab is very relevantly good. His throws aren't godlike or incredible especially not by the standards of this game but they're decent enough for damage.

Yeah obviously it's better to have a good a shield grab than to not to. But if I had to choose between having a good shield grab and a good pivot grab, I'd take pivot.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah obviously it's better to have a good a shield grab than to not to. But if I had to choose between having a good shield grab and a good pivot grab, I'd take pivot.

While I will say I MOSTLY agree, I think it's super case by case. If running speed is good I'd take pivot over standing any day, but on slower characters having a good standing grab is probably a bit more....PIVOTal (I'm really sorry)

Regardless pivots are nice for multiple reasons that are pretty obviously present.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Why is sonic considered to be in top 5 in the game?

It's not a common placement, but I think the reason he's there is because the rushdown characters are typically the best in this game. He also has great mixup ability with his Spin Dash, better than average recovery, and safety from being punished.

 

[bc1910]

It's a very common placement. And Sonic isn't rushdown, he's hit and run.

Sonic is considered top 5 because he is the best character at keeping a lead, has extremely low risk high reward mixups (in general and on shield), is hard to even hit, and has stellar international tournament results.

I think Sonic is 3rd or 4th in the game depending on your opinion of Rosalina.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Greninja has one of the worst OoS games in the history of the series.

Yoshi didn't even have an OoS game in brawl tho

 

[Wintropy]

Basically what the above two said, but it's worth mentioning that the current ruleset favours Sonic's playstyle. Two stock, six minutes, time-out elimination means Sonic can just get a few hits in and camp until the clock runs out. It's difficult for certain characters to keep up with him in that case, so certain matchups (basically anybody that can't pressure him with speed, combos and / or projectiles) become heavily skewed in Sonic's favour because of how the winner of the game is determined.

That and he's got good players doing stuff with him - Seagull, 6wx, Static Manny, Komokiri, that kinda thing. And yeah, where exactly he falls depends on whether you think Rosalina deserves to be higher than him in the Top 5.

 

[Project Quarantine]

after some thought, I was considering about the value of Perfect pivoting in mii swordfighter's ground game PP up tilt sounds really nice

I've been doing nair->pp utilts with my silly pocket swordfighter for a while. You can also catch landings with it, it's super nifty

 

[FullMoon]

The main thing that's great about Greninja's pivot grab is that it has great range and he slides so far when doing it that it's pretty hard to punish.

 

[Kulty]

It's a very common placement. And Sonic isn't rushdown, he's hit and run.

Sonic is considered top 5 because he is the best character at keeping a lead, has extremely low risk high reward mixups (in general and on shield), is hard to even hit, and has stellar international tournament results.

I think Sonic is 3rd or 4th in the game depending on your opinion of Rosalina.

I don't think that Sonic is top 5 personally, but he's very close to be one. That's just me though. I would've considered him top 5 before patch 1.0.6, but after this, not really because of his huge nerfs.

 

[Smog Frog]

what 5 characters are better than ?

 

[Wintropy]

I don't think that Sonic is top 5 personally, but he's very close to be one. That's just me though. I would've considered him top 5 before patch 1.0.6, but after this, not really because of his huge nerfs.

The nerfs don't really make a practical difference though, they just mean he has to play safer. Before the patch he was rewarded for playing aggressively (b-throw was especially insane), now he has even more reason to play campy. Either way, Sonic doesn't need kill power if he can outrun you: he just needs speed and safety, both of which he has in abundance.

Out of interest, who (besides Sheik, naturally) beats Sonic? I know the Ike players reckon they have an even or good matchup with him and there's chatter that Mega Man and Pac-Man (I might be misremembering this; correct me if I'm wrong) can beat him, but what about the top-tiers?

 

[Dark.Pch]

.

Peach has a general problem at approaching while she excels in edge guarding and stuffing moves, as well as having a decent disadvantage state utilizing float and N-Air, B-Air and a solid advantage state.

Peach does not have a problem at approaching. She has the most approach options in this game for one thing.

and what is this disadvantage state you speak of with float and nair?

 

[Rizen]

Dark.Pch where on the tier list would you rank Peach?

 

[Kulty]

The nerfs don't really make a practical difference though, they just mean he has to play safer. Before the patch he was rewarded for playing aggressively (b-throw was especially insane), now he has even more reason to play campy. Either way, Sonic doesn't need kill power if he can outrun you: he just needs speed and safety, both of which he has in abundance.

Out of interest, who (besides Sheik, naturally) beats Sonic? I know the Ike players reckon they have an even or good matchup with him and there's chatter that Mega Man and Pac-Man (I might be misremembering this; correct me if I'm wrong) can beat him, but what about the top-tiers?

Well, yeah. I used to main before, because I love the way that he can play aggressively without getting punished too hard. I still love Sonic today, but not as much as pre-patch Sonic, but at least there's reward behind him that makes him enjoy again. As for the MUs, I think among the high-tiers, Sonic :

• Slightly loses to imo: ,and(AKA braindead)
• Pretty much even to:
• WIns slightly against:
• As for , I think Sonic goes even or slightly wins against him, since Ike isn't capable of dealing with characters that can rush him down quickly. As for , oh definitely. Mega Man gives Sonic a ton of trouble, since Sonic has no options besides his mobility to deal with zoning characters. For , I'm not exactly sure, but I feel it's a lot easier than Mega Man, since you can use Pac-Man's projectiles to counter his neutral.

 

[Routa]

I remember people (including me) saying Wario being a Sanic Slayer. But that was long time ago. Dunno if it is the case anymore.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is random but I'm lookin at DK's frame data and...

why the **** does this character have intangibility on D-tilt from frame 1? Super safe, fast poke that can lead to death confirms from grab.

Actually all of DK's tilts are intangible, as are his smashes and Uair. I just went from respecting DK's char design to feeling DK is hella fraudulent.

The **** was Sakurai thinking.

And Ganondorf over here with not one intangible poke.

Character balance...HOW DO YOU HAS IT?!?!?!

 

[Spinosaurus]

I remember people (including me) saying Wario being a Sanic Slayer. But that was long time ago. Dunno if it is the case anymore.

This was never the case except against FG Sonics that literally walked right into chomp. This matchup, if anything, is more likely in Sonic's favor. Always has been.