Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[ZarroTsu]

Probably because they're afraid he'll get nerfed or a bad matchup will become too apparent...

Ah yes, the old Smash 4 "Everything is so much better when nobody knows anything" logic. Just like with Miis and Customs!

 

[meleebrawler]

Thing about Ryu is that, like Nobie said, his stuff just isn't as safe as the likes of Sheik. Powershielding any of his aerials besides retreating bair will likely result in a punish. He doesn't have that one move he can confidently throw out constantly while thinking of a different approach, a "win" button as it were. Shoryuken is close, especially against opponents with poor range, but can still be punished on shield unless Ryu has a platform to land on, and even then he's put himself at a disadvantage.

And in that situation, he also lacks a win button like Bouncing Fish or Flip Jump. His aerials are good but he still needs to be careful.

Finally, his recovery has good mixup potential but also has moments of vulnerability sprinkled within.

At the end of the day I think a lot of people will prefer playing a character that is less likely to be punished for less-than optimal play than one that has potentially more reward in damage.

This is not to say I disagree with anyone saying he's top tier, just that there are reasons to be concerned about using him consistently at top level.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ah yes, the old Smash 4 "Everything is so much better when nobody knows anything" logic. Just like with Miis and Customs!

Yeah, I don't get why people never learn that no tech or info can stay hidden forever.People will keep doing it tho. you know what they say, " I don't know why it is the way it is, but it do"

 

[Dre89]

So, basically Bowser, Charizard, Triple D, Mewtwo, and Zelda. They are among the strongest punishers while also being on the lower spectrum in the game. Their ability to rebound is scary when one read can turn matches around, however, the problem is actually hitting anything if they're getting tossed around like ragdolls.

Firstly, Bowser is not low tier. He's a tier above Charizard because he is basically Charizard but kills 40% earlier on average. Charizard's superior mobility doesn't count for much against top tiers because all of them except Rosa and maybe Villager are mre mobile than him. Spacing and burst options matter more when you're slower, and Bowser has better tools for that. Charizard technically has more landing mix-ups, but Bowser still has an answer for every option, with much higher reward (you can realistically kill off picking the correct landing option). His landing options also don't all lose to shield like Charizard's.

Secondly, of all those characters, Bowser is the only one who can kill you pre 100 with an option that is less that 15 frames. The other characters would not only need a hard read, but would need the opponent to commit to something laggy enough to be punished by a slow attack that can kill early. Most top tiers simply don't need to select those options against slower characters.

 

[Kaladin]

Firstly, Bowser is not low tier. He's a tier above Charizard because he is basically Charizard but kills 40% earlier on average. Charizard's superior mobility doesn't count for much against top tiers because all of them except Rosa and maybe Villager are mre mobile than him. Spacing and burst options matter more when you're slower, and Bowser has better tools for that. Charizard technically has more landing mix-ups, but Bowser still has an answer for every option, with much higher reward (you can realistically kill off picking the correct landing option). His landing options also don't all lose to shield like Charizard's.

Secondly, of all those characters, Bowser is the only one who can kill you pre 100 with an option that is less that 15 frames. The other characters would not only need a hard read, but would need the opponent to commit to something laggy enough to be punished by a slow attack that can kill early. Most top tiers simply don't need to select those options against slower characters.

Zelda's Up B is frame 4(?) and kill at around 60. Charizard up B kills off a platform or team combo well before 100, just like his Bair (frame 14? Correct me if I'm wrong) DDDownsmash is stupid. Bowser is likely the best out of those characters, but he's still in whatever we're calling it -- not solo viable to win a national and not a worthwhile counter pick against anyone good tier.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Zelda's Up B is frame 4(?) and kill at around 60. Charizard up B kills off a platform or team combo well before 100, just like his Bair (frame 14? Correct me if I'm wrong) DDDownsmash is stupid. Bowser is likely the best out of those characters, but he's still in whatever we're calling it -- not solo viable to win a national and not a worthwhile counter pick against anyone good tier.

Zelda's teleport's first hit is frame 6-7. Point still stands, but remember Bowsers fair and bair both kill and are fairly safe - something you can't say for Zelda's teleport or Charizard's up-b

 

[M32]

Thing about Ryu is that, like Nobie said, his stuff just isn't as safe as the likes of Sheik. Powershielding any of his aerials besides retreating bair will likely result in a punish. He doesn't have that one move he can confidently throw out constantly while thinking of a different approach, a "win" button as it were. Shoryuken is close, especially against opponents with poor range, but can still be punished on shield unless Ryu has a platform to land on, and even then he's put himself at a disadvantage.

And in that situation, he also lacks a win button like Bouncing Fish or Flip Jump. His aerials are good but he still needs to be careful.

Finally, his recovery has good mixup potential but also has moments of vulnerability sprinkled within.

At the end of the day I think a lot of people will prefer playing a character that is less likely to be punished for less-than optimal play than one that has potentially more reward in damage.

This is not to say I disagree with anyone saying he's top tier, just that there are reasons to be concerned about using him consistently at top level.

nair +0
bair -2
fair -4

Idk how this isn't safe on shield. You must be charging smashes after landing.

Win button, flip jump or bouncing fish? I can't see how Shoryuken is less of it.

I'm not saying Ryu is easy to use because he isn't, but your points are absolutely wrong.

 

[buzzard]

Zelda's teleport's first hit is frame 6-7. Point still stands, but remember Bowsers fair and bair both kill and are fairly safe - something you can't say for Zelda's teleport or Charizard's up-b

Zelda can true combo her upb from a falling nair or a SHAD nair. Although it's not the easiest combo to land because of nair's range, frame data and zelda's mobility, it is a considerably safer alternative.

 

[Y2Kay]

Firstly, Bowser is not low tier. He's a tier above Charizard because he is basically Charizard but kills 40% earlier on average. Charizard's superior mobility doesn't count for much against top tiers because all of them except Rosa and maybe Villager are mre mobile than him. Spacing and burst options matter more when you're slower, and Bowser has better tools for that. Charizard technically has more landing mix-ups, but Bowser still has an answer for every option, with much higher reward (you can realistically kill off picking the correct landing option). His landing options also don't all lose to shield like Charizard's.

Don't do it.......be strong....everyone is sick of Zard posts by now........don't....make....super long....counter-argument

 

[Locke 06]

Honestly, Ryu's grab reward and Dash grab is a bit overtuned with no teching grabs. That and air focus being lagless. Other than that, I have no qualms with the character.

nair +0
bair -2
fair -4

Idk how this isn't safe on shield. You must be charging smashes after landing.

Win button, flip jump or bouncing fish? I can't see how Shoryuken is less of it.

I'm not saying Ryu is easy to use because he isn't, but your points are absolutely wrong.

You don't let Ryu jump in for free. Hmmmm.... Street fighter?

Edit: to get those frame advantages he has to use those aerials right before landing. NAir and FAir very often hit high on shield.

 

[Pyr]

nair +0
bair -2
fair -4

Idk how this isn't safe on shield. You must be charging smashes after landing.

Win button, flip jump or bouncing fish? I can't see how Shoryuken is less of it.

I'm not saying Ryu is easy to use because he isn't, but your points are absolutely wrong.

1st - Powershielding =/= regular shielding. That changes those numbers in a rather big way (assuming you hit, and landed, on the first frame the hitbox comes out).

2nd - Shoryuken doesn't punish a silly mistake half way across FD/Off the stage for free off of a reaction. It's strong and kills early, but BF and Flip Jump easily have more utility.

 

[Ffamran]

Firstly, Bowser is not low tier. He's a tier above Charizard because he is basically Charizard but kills 40% earlier on average. Charizard's superior mobility doesn't count for much against top tiers because all of them except Rosa and maybe Villager are mre mobile than him. Spacing and burst options matter more when you're slower, and Bowser has better tools for that. Charizard technically has more landing mix-ups, but Bowser still has an answer for every option, with much higher reward (you can realistically kill off picking the correct landing option). His landing options also don't all lose to shield like Charizard's.

Secondly, of all those characters, Bowser is the only one who can kill you pre 100 with an option that is less that 15 frames. The other characters would not only need a hard read, but would need the opponent to commit to something laggy enough to be punished by a slow attack that can kill early. Most top tiers simply don't need to select those options against slower characters.

I said "lower spectrum in the game". That doesn't mean "low-tier". That's anywhere from mid-tier to bottom. In contrast, someone like Mario is in the higher end of the spectrum; anywhere from mid-tier to top-tier. Basically, halves. Why? 'Cause it's annoying to say who's in what tier and getting bombarded by "yeas" and "nays" to that... Which still happened.

When you all were talking about how tier lists should have been set up. I wanted to bring up an idea of "has" and "has nots". The people in "has" are like 15 characters and 15 characters we could "easily" agree on while the 40 other characters are "has nots". The 40 "has nots" would be allowed to migrate to "has" as would the people in "has" migrate to "has nots". So, say Peach starts to do well and starts securing fantastic results, national and international. If acknowledged, she would move into "has" just like Wario, Meta Knight, Ryu - blame DLC since if he was in the game at launch, it would have been clear he was a good character -, and Ike. Now, someone like Greninja while doing well, still hasn't dominated like Ike and Meta Knight has. He's still in "has not" despite doing well like the Pits, Bowser Jr., Toon Link, Pac-Man, and currently, Peach. This is going to be an unpopular idea, yes?

For those who just glance at it, they could misinterpret this as just a top and bottom tier list which would be really bad when top tier consists of ~15 characters while bottom has ~40. It'd be more fuel for anti-Smash 4 stuff and character fights. The reason for this idea is that we really don't know where the other 40 or so characters are. You can claim DK is high tier, but can you claim that Little Mac is even mid, Marth even high, or Samus even low? It's a muddied mess that people either don't really care about or actually get migraines figuring out if, for example, Palutena is mid-, low-mid, or bottom with all arguments against and for her. The other reason? Start big and get small. Starting with a big picture where we know a select few are top and high tier and everyone else is somewhere is better than trying to fine tune everything right from the beginning. When someone draws, usually, they don't start with the finest detail like the eyes and then everything else. Doing that could make everything out of proportion and out of focus. Do we really need to know right now that Meta Knight is the, hypothetically, 12th best character? No, but we do know he's somewhere in top 15 or top 20 at the least. And we definitely don't need to know that Little Mac is the, hypothetically, 37th best character. I mean, who the hell cares if he's the 37th best character? It might be better to know that Little Mac's somewhere in mid-low than to argue in places and that he's exactly in this tier, numbered this, and these 55 other characters are exactly here and numbered whatever. That's an insane amount of work to do on a game we barely know. Melee, Street Fighter II, Super Mario 64., you name it are old games, but people are still figuring out things and if they have figured out "everything", it took them years. The internet no matter how easy it is to share information, can't drastically accelerate this process when basic concepts are still being ironed out. You can't suddenly make pot-au-feu without knowing how to make a simple soup, cut vegetables, meat, etc.

Now for something entirely different: I just noticed that since Falco, Little Mac, Mega Man, and Roy all have the same fall speed, they're all susceptible to Ryu's... Ryu stuff. Of the 4, Falco, Little Mac, and Roy have the worst disadvantages - they don't exactly have good recoveries, good get out here options, good combo breakers, and can't really endure much damage - and they can't exactly play mid-range as well as Ryu or... Mega Man who's probably the only one to actually not have to deal with Ryu and his own fast fall speed screwing him over when he doesn't have to play up close like the other 3. All of them have good to high walk speeds and good pokes, so they can play footsies with Ryu, but Mega Man's ranged, so he doesn't really need to worry about getting into Ryu's zone. Here's a question: was this (unintentionally) bad game design? You have 4 characters with the same fall speed, 2 who have the same weight, and 3 who suffer from bad disadvantages while having average to low weight. Mega Man's mostly exempt from this, but the other 3? Especially factoring in that Roy needs to get in to do enough damage and knockback for kills, could it be possible to say that Falco, Little Mac, and Roy are the "same" MU for Ryu. Everything Ryu needs to do to Roy, he can do to Falco and Little Mac. The play style Ryu needs to play with Falco is the "same" with Roy and Little Mac. These 3 also cannot make mistakes at all compared to Mega Man who "can't" make mistakes if he's out there playing at a safer range while the other 3 prefer playing up-close... in Ryu's range. I ask this because while watching a Little Mac vs. Ryu on terminalkai, a wire connected: "Wait... Little Mac has the same fall speed as Falco... and so does Roy! and Mega Man too!" I also ask this since... really, of all the freaking attributes in the game, fall speed has 1.8 shared by 4 characters who all have kind of bad disadvantages. And then you look at the 4 characters with a fall speed of 1.65; can you really say that Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt, Ike, and Ganondorf all have bad disadvantages to the point where 2 of them because of shared weight, pretty much can die to the same setups at the same time? Sure, Falco's gravity, 0.13 is higher than Little Mac's by 0.05, but is that enough? Just a little (, silly, wild) question for people to ignore ponder.

 

[TurboLink]

Honestly, Ryu's grab reward and Dash grab is a bit overtuned with no teching grabs. That and air focus being lagless. Other than that, I have no qualms with the character.


You don't let Ryu jump in for free. Hmmmm.... Street fighter?

Edit: to get those frame advantages he has to use those aerials right before landing. NAir and FAir very often hit high on shield.

No teching grabs? What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm really weak

sorry Dre89 , but calling zard a bowser that kills 40% lower (lol) is not fair to zard and not true. And Bowser not being better than Zard, let alon not being bottom tier is really....wrong. First of all, outruns a lot more top threats than you say. He outruns a lot more than two. Besides, just because he's not as fast as he actually has the speed to keep up with them while Bowser can't. And though his smash attacks are weaker than Bowser, it doesn't make up for the fact of how punishable his are. Zard's f-smash looks like MK compared to Bowser's (he fricking drop kicks and falls on the ground AND then has to get pack up)

Bowser's landing options are safe on shield? Since when does Bowser even have that? Zard has autocancelling aerials and rock smash to land, he lands way better than Bowser. Not to mention a vastly better recovery and a crazy strong kill throw.

I'm gonna move on from this topic now, people seems to not like it when i post about Charizard. I don't need a Radical Larry reputation.
For the record I think Zard is either at the bottom of mid or at the top of low, nothing higher
(right below characters like )

 

[Dre89]

I'm really weak

sorry Dre89 , but calling zard a bowser that kills 40% lower (lol) is not fair to zard and not true. And Bowser not being better than Zard, let alon not being bottom tier is really....wrong. First of all, outruns a lot more top threats than you say. He outruns a lot more than two. Besides, just because he's not as fast as he actually has the speed to keep up with them while Bowser can't. And though his smash attacks are weaker than Bowser, it doesn't make up for the fact of how punishable his are. Zard's f-smash looks like MK compared to Bowser's (he fricking drop kicks and falls on the ground AND then has to get pack up)

Bowser's landing options are safe on shield? Since when does Bowser even have that? Zard has autocancelling aerials and rock smash to land, he lands way better than Bowser.

I'm gonna move on from this topic now, people seems to not like it when i post about I don't need a Radical Larry reputation.
For the record I think Zard is either at the bottom of mid or at the top of low, nothing higher (right below characters like )

Bowser does not need smash attacks to kill early, that's the point. A good player is rarely ever going to use Bowser's fsmash. The only smash worth using is upsmash because it kills early and is safe against aerial opponents in certain situations. Charizard does not kill pre100 unless he has a lot of rage or gets something like an fsmash read, which is unlikely against good players.

Dash speed is not overall mobility. Charzard is overall slower than Characters like Sheik, Sonic, Falcon ZSS, Diddy, Pika etc. If you think you can 'keep up' with them speed-wise then you are not playing good ones. Charizard's superior mobility to Bowser doesn't count for much when you're slower than your opponent and have to rely on spacing and burst options, which Bowser is better at.

I also never said all of his landing options are safe on shield. What I meant is that you can't just carelessly shield Bowser's landing because he can sideb you, or even go for yolo downb right before landing to try catch a dash-shield punish or a pivot grab attempt. Against Charizad you can just shield and even if you don't punish him he can't really threaten you with a landing option.

Zelda's Up B is frame 4(?) and kill at around 60. Charizard up B kills off a platform or team combo well before 100, just like his Bair (frame 14? Correct me if I'm wrong) DDDownsmash is stupid. Bowser is likely the best out of those characters, but he's still in whatever we're calling it -- not solo viable to win a national and not a worthwhile counter pick against anyone good tier.

Upb killing off a platform is pretty situational, and I'm pretty sure dsmash doesn't kill before 100

Bowser is not in the same tier as them. He's only slightly worse than DK in terms of viability. People thought DK sucked before the grab patch, now they think he's mid to high because he kills off a grab at 70%

Bowser kills most characters only 10% or so later, but unlike DK he doesn't have a specific window and always benefits from rage. A DK who has lost the kill window will have more trouble killing than Bowser if they're not gimpable, and a few of the top tiers aren't. Bowser is also much better at landing than DK is.

Their spacing options in neutral are pretty similar in effectiveness too. What really makes DK better than Bowser is that he pressures advantages harder and he's much better off-stage. If DK is somewhere between high and mid then Bowser is definitely at least mid.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No teching grabs? What is that supposed to mean?

Desire to put on ignore...intensifies.

 

[Y2Kay]

Desire to put on ignore...intensifies.

There's nothing wrong with asking a question. I swear, you guys hate when people make ignorant post and talk about stuff they have no knowledge of,then why would you the ignore people for asking a question instead? C'mon guys, we can be more hospitable than that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A question is one thing but my **** my left nutsack, if a person can't just google something.

Annnnnd, people have posted resources where these things can be looked up.

Annnnd this is not the thread to be asking these types of questions.

Annnnnnnnnnd imo if you are in a competitive thread but want everything spoon fed to you, then clearly you are not hungry i.e not competitive annnnnnnd I have little tolerance for such behavior.

 

[Jehtt]

Annnnd this is not the thread to be asking these types of questions.

This also isn't the thread to be an asshole to people who do. If it bothers you so much, ignore them and move on.
BTW guys, using RANDOM CAPS and excess punctuation!!!!!! doesn't help to prove points. Cut that out.

Anyway, when we talk about move safety on shield, we generally assume you land the frame after hitting. But how often does that actually happen? Characters like Ryu and ZSS tend to come in high with their aerials and it seems very unlikely to me that they'll be doing it perfectly every time. Is there a good way to estimate how safe a high-hit is or is it better just to test it?

 

[Y2Kay]

A question is one thing but my **** my left nutsack, if a person can't just google something.

Annnnnd, people have posted resources where these things can be looked up.

Annnnd this is not the thread to be asking these types of questions.

Annnnnnnnnnd imo if you are in a competitive thread but want everything spoon fed to you, then clearly you are not hungry i.e not competitive annnnnnnd I have little tolerance for such behavior.

teching grabs aren't even in this game, man. If I didn't play traditional fighting games, which a lot smash players do not, that sentence doesn't make sense! I googled it myself and there wasn't really an answer, just a lot people asking how to do it and how to input it. No clear definition of what it is.

 

[TurboLink]

A question is one thing but my **** my left nutsack, if a person can't just google something.

Annnnnd, people have posted resources where these things can be looked up.

Annnnd this is not the thread to be asking these types of questions.

Annnnnnnnnnd imo if you are in a competitive thread but want everything spoon fed to you, then clearly you are not hungry i.e not competitive annnnnnnd I have little tolerance for such behavior.

I know what teching is. I just didn't know what he meant by no teching grabs. And wondered if Ryu had throws different from everybody else or something. But thanks for showing me I'm not welcome here with all the other users who liked your comment. I'll be leaving now.

 

[meleebrawler]

A question is one thing but my **** my left nutsack, if a person can't just google something.

Annnnnd, people have posted resources where these things can be looked up.

Annnnd this is not the thread to be asking these types of questions.

Annnnnnnnnnd imo if you are in a competitive thread but want everything spoon fed to you, then clearly you are not hungry i.e not competitive annnnnnnd I have little tolerance for such behavior.

Even so, you didn't have to derail the thread even further by calling him out like that.

The phrase "no teching grabs" is a bit ambiguous too. It could either mean that Ryu doesn't have this thing called a teching grab, which would be the first time I've heard of such a thing in this game, or that no grabs can be teched in this game, which is true for most normal throws except maybe Sonic's dthrow.

 

[⑨ball]

Anyway, when we talk about move safety on shield, we generally assume you land the frame after hitting. But how often does that actually happen? Characters like Ryu and ZSS tend to come in high with their aerials and it seems very unlikely to me that they'll be doing it perfectly every time. Is there a good way to estimate how safe a high-hit is or is it better just to test it?

Probably better to test it, but you might be able to get some somewhat decent estimates by adding thirds(depending on how high the shield is hit) of SH air time to the landing lag in the equation for shield advantage.

 

[Jams.]

Dre89 , Charizard's uthrow on platforms can kill below 100% depending on the opponent, Charziard's rage, and how high the platform is. It happens often enough that it should be considered IMO. Dthrow->upb also feels like a 50/50 at some percents, but I'm not completely sure and I wouldn't be surprised if it's not. Charizard is also screwed if he misses.

This also isn't the thread to be an ******* to people who do. If it bothers you so much, ignore them and move on.
BTW guys, using RANDOM CAPS and excess punctuation!!!!!! doesn't help to prove points. Cut that out.

Anyway, when we talk about move safety on shield, we generally assume you land the frame after hitting. But how often does that actually happen? Characters like Ryu and ZSS tend to come in high with their aerials and it seems very unlikely to me that they'll be doing it perfectly every time. Is there a good way to estimate how safe a high-hit is or is it better just to test it?

I don't feel like ZSS comes in high with her aerials. The hitboxes are pretty narrow, so she has to throw them out pretty low to actually connect with them, especially on short characters. ZSS especially wants to connect nairs low to the ground to increase its effectiveness as a combo starter.

 

[Kulty]

Hey guys,

Quick question. Who are the characters that are top and high-tiers at this point in the metagame (patch 1.1.1)? Imo, they are :
S :
A+ :
A :
A- :
What do you guys think about it? Tell me if I miss any character or is it fine?

 

[meleebrawler]

Hey guys,

Quick question. Who are the characters that are top and high-tiers at this point in the metagame (patch 1.1.1)? Imo, they are :
S :
A+ :
A :
A- :
What do you guys think about it? Tell me if I miss any character or is it fine?

Let's calmly ignore this and move away slowly...

 

[KirbySquad101]

Let's calmly ignore this and move away slowly...

I was about to disagree with you until I saw Ness in the top five.

 

[Kulty]

Let's calmly ignore this and move away slowly...

Oh LOL! Sorry if I mentioned about this. I'm new to this thread so I couldn't keep up to the start of the conversation.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Oh LOL! Sorry if I mentioned about this. I'm new to this thread so I couldn't keep up to the start of the conversation.

Tier lists - more often than not - end up being a complete waste of time, but if you REALLY want to put up tier lists, you need to:

A. Explain the importance of the differences between tiers and what they mean.
B. Explain your reasoning behind the placements.

Point B is VERY crucial and you better know what you're saying before you give your reasoning if you don't want to look incredibly silly.

 

[Antonykun]

Oh LOL! Sorry if I mentioned about this. I'm new to this thread so I couldn't keep up to the start of the conversation.

This thread is also inhabited by the Competitive Impressions Unit, and we take etiquette and posting standards pretty seriously here (as does the Competitive subforum in general).
A general rule of thumb is:
THOUGHTLESS BALANCE SUGGESTIONS or PERSONAL TIER LISTS (without openly justifying themselves and responding properly to questions and critique) is punishable by DEATH.

"Keep relative discussions on character strengths, weaknesses, abilities and viability to here."

Literally the second post of this thread

 

[Trifroze]

Optimally ZSS' nair for example is -4 on shield so on characters with f6 grabs you have 1 frame to jab them if they attempt to shieldgrab you, and I manage to do that most of the time. Sometimes the jab trades with grab release which means my timing is off by a frame, but it's definitely quite easy to land 1 frame after hitting something. Landing on the same "frame" (during hitlag) is pretty difficult and it can't be done against shields as far as I know.

Ryu is definitely among the characters with the most shield safety in the game, but his relative lack of range when compared to ZSS and Sheik for instance means he's susceptible to powershielding with all of his moves except bair, which has enough range to force the large majority of his opponents to punish him with a dash option, thus forcing them into an extra 7 frame shield drop. ZSS has slightly more range than Sheik (ZSS nair > Sheik fair, ZSS bair > Sheik bair) and two disjointed aerials, but Sheik can use her fair out of a rising shorthop and then autocancel it so she's ultimately a safer character. ZSS has to reach her jump's apex first and take like 30 frames in the entire process so she can get owned by jc up smashes and forward rolls.

Mario/Luigi/Doc smashes are straight up stupid after 1.1.1 and they all always had low landing lag on their aerials as well, so they're also really safe but more similar to Ryu because they lack range and will die to powershielding.

 

[Kulty]

Tier lists - more often than not - end up being a complete waste of time, but if you REALLY want to put up tier lists, you need to:

A. Explain the importance of the differences between tiers and what they mean.
B. Explain your reasoning behind the placements.

Point B is VERY crucial and you better know what you're saying before you give your reasoning if you don't want to look incredibly silly.

Well I want to come with the explanations soon by editing this post. I just want to know your guys' opinions about this.

 

[Ffamran]

Fun fact, everyone: Ryu's Nair only has 6 recovery frames and light Utilt only has 8. The closest (as far as I know) to that would be Zelda's jab at 10 frames. Ponder that for a moment while I try to finish the others' recovery frames.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

People should realize that there's certain expectations when you post in this thread. Having a lack of basic concepts and fundamentals is a little frustrating. Actually it's very frustrating to come here and see some of the questions asked in this thread. Especially when you consider the amount of resources this site alone has to offer. Instead of being butt hurt people should explore the game more and characters. Of course all of welcome to post but don't expect us to hold your hands.

 

[NegaNixx]

What keeps Yoshi high in viability in people's minds? Relatively speaking. When I say I place him at 20th in terms of solo viability (when considering Pit and Dark Pit as interchangeable) it's generally the most controversial thing.

So what does Yoshi have that makes him so competent in people's eyes?

 

[⑨ball]

Fun fact, everyone: Ryu's Nair only has 6 recovery frames and light Utilt only has 8. The closest (as far as I know) to that would be Zelda's jab at 10 frames. Ponder that for a moment while I try to finish the others' recovery frames.

Those were the first things I rechecked after watching Trela v Nairo. Seeing him chase down a roll on reaction after a shielded utilt and punish with SRK was pretty impressive.

Nair also lead into some impressive combos while stuffing ZSS' normal pressure game. It's certainly got my nomination for best nair.

 

[Ffamran]

Now I have more reason to hate Villager. None of Villager's aerials take more than 16 frames of recovery and none of them take more than 13 frames of startup. Sure, only Nair? has a hitbox on Villager, but that's pretty freaking insane when you have that kind of recovery frames and all of your aerials linger even if they don't linger on you. That Uair and Dair you thought you could punish after it ends? Have fun with their 6 and 8 frames of startup and 11 and 14 frames of recovery, respectively. Both of them have +24 active frames.

Edit: No character I've checked so far has that kind of low recovery without auto-canceling or straightup dealing with landing lag on their aerials. Not Ryu, not Captain Falcon, not ZSS, and probably not even Sheik who I'm not there yet.

 

[Mario766]

That's great and all for Villager, bust most characters don't go for multiple aerials in a single jump because it's impractical.

Sheik's F-Air has 28 frames of recovery if she's stuck in the air, but if she lands after 6 frames she auto cancels so who cares. Even if she lands before it auto cancels, she has 10 frames of landing lag. She doesn't lose those frames in recovery just for landing.

Villager's aerials are amazing, I'm not questioning that, but talking about them like that doesn't say a terrible amount if you want to compare them to other characters, since Villager plays radically different from the rest of the cast.

 

[Nobie]

What keeps Yoshi high in viability in people's minds? Relatively speaking. When I say I place him at 20th in terms of solo viability (when considering Pit and Dark Pit as interchangeable) it's generally the most controversial thing.

So what does Yoshi have that makes him so competent in people's eyes?

When you just look at Yoshi's stats, at least on the surface he looks like he SHOULD be an incredible character. Highest air speed in the game, huge extendo-hitboxes that last forever, power, weight, a mulit-angle projectile, the inherent ability to escape juggles due to double jumps, it makes his lack of a good grab seem not THAT important on paper. Whenever you get hit by fair, or nair, or see his tail grow to double size and swat you out of the sky, it's easy to think, "What the hell this character has no weaknesses," and think too much about the size of the hitboxes and not the lack of disjoints. Of course, as we know Yoshi DOES have weaknesses but they're somewhat subtle, and other characters who purportedly suffer from similar issues don't seem to fall victim to it as much, such as having trouble finishing stocks.

 

[Lavani]

or see his tail grow to double size and swat you out of the sky, it's easy to think, "What the hell this character has no weaknesses," and think too much about the size of the hitboxes and not the lack of disjoints.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I just want to point out that a lot of Yoshi's attacks are actually disjointed. Specifically, everything that uses his tail or tongue, his legs during usmash, and his head during fsmash.