Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

I admit I don't know M2 too well, but I would've thought that his good boxing game but low grab range would've made him better at dealing with approaches rather than doing it himself. What are his viable approach options?

It's two sides of the same coin. Mewtwo doesn't really rushdown, he weaves between offense and defense through measured approaches and retreats. A decent (but not fantastic) run speed helps.

 

[Mario766]

But I thought it was slow fallers that died early off the top.

That's the point. Fox/Falco die later than some characters in Melee off the top due to their super high fall speed. Being floaty and light weight means you're going to die early off the top.

 

[Y2Kay]

What's a poke?

"Shield Poke"- This describes the ability to hit someone with a normal attack even if they are holding up their shield. To do this, you must make sure that your attack hits a part of the character shielding that isn't covered by their shield and at the same time make sure your attack avoids hitting what's left of the shield.

got that from the smash dictionary

 

[Ghostbone]

Ghostbone I'm just sayin', if you want to prove Mewtwo is THAT much lighter than those right behind him perhaps a lateral kill move would be more accurate.

That doesn't make any sense

All the top tiers kill vertically 90% of the time because vertical kill moves are consistent. (same ceiling height across the stage) And just because that's the way it turned out (top tiers all happen to have strong vertical KO options)
Comparing horizontal kill options would be inaccurate as they're more rarely used.

 

[meleebrawler]

I admit I don't know M2 too well, but I would've thought that his good boxing game but low grab range would've made him better at dealing with approaches rather than doing it himself. What are his viable approach options?

Well dash attack can be made safe with good spacing and he can follow baby shadow balls ALA Luigi, but foremost among them is that he has quite possibly one of, if not THE best short-hop airdodges in the game.

Edit: I don't think it's too accurate to call Mewtwo floaty, even if he technically is he's certainly from being as floaty as Jigglypuff. His fall speed's pretty close to average.

 

[Ffamran]

got that from the smash dictionary

Wrong poke... The... Why!? Spacing, footsies, and poking... All the same damn thing... Copied from here: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games.

A poke is generally a quick attack that is done to hit an opponent from just about the maximum range that specific move will allow, generally done as a single attack to accomplish any of the following things (sometimes more than one): to stuff an opponent's current attack, even one of their own pokes; to create distance between the two players; to deal "safe", unpunishable damage.

Other stuff below.

“Footsies” is oldschool slang for the mid-range ground-based aspect of fighting game strategy. It refers to a situation where both players are outside of combo range and attack each other with long-range, generally safe attacks (pokes). The ultimate goal is to control the flow of the match, bait the opponent into committing errors, and punish everything.

Zoning is a tactic in 2D fighters usually used at mid-range or far mid-range, the purpose of which is to out-prioritize your enemy's moves. The idea is to space yourself so that you are in a position to respond to or punish any entry angle or attack of your opponent's. Ideally, you can use certain pokes and attacks to beat your opponent's attacks, punish his advances or jumps, and hopefully shut down his offensive options, while landing hits. In attempting to zone, it is important to know the properties of your own attacks as well as the attacks of your opponent, in order to find the best move to use in countering your opponent's move. The ability to predict your opponent's next move, and having good reflexes to react to that move, are also important.

This one's really interesting. Abare is:

From Japanese verb abareru, meaning "to run amok" or "to rage violently." Playing aggressively. Usually trying to land pokes when pressured, wakeups, and in between the opponent's attacks.

One notable character I can think of who can do this safely: Sheik. Others: Captain Falcon and Fox.

Also, Shoryuken glossary is a good resource: http://shoryuken.com/glossary/.

 

[Browny]

Mewtwo dies to 50% Diddy d-tilt > u-smash at 98%.
Sheik dies to the same setup at 110%, Fox dies at 108%

Mewtwo dies 12% earlier, his weight really is a lot less.
(and this is just off the ground kill moves, the effect is exacerbated when you get stuff like Sheik d-throw > uair where Mewtwo is sent higher from d-throw so he dies even earlier than if you just compared Sheik's uair from the ground)

Poor example with diddy since Mewtwo actually isnt combod by dtilt-usmash at that % (or higher), with DI he easily escapes the Usmash. Even when dtilt is point-blank, he can DJ before hes even close enough to the ground to be hit by it.

You're right, those numbers are correct (thats what I get for trusting smashboards KO % threads) however Mewtwo avoids such KO set-ups entirely, so its irrelevant that he dies earlier to that.

He dies only a few % earlier to strong moves like shoryuken and strangely enough dies later to veritcal kill moves than G&W, but dies earlier off the sides.

 

[Project Quarantine]

So...uh...this:
http://youtu.be/cmslcwO5y5k

I'm not sure if this is practical at high level play or how many characters can use it, but it seems cool. I'll be sure to update if Zan decided to actually explain this to those wondering.

 

[TurboLink]

I've been observing this thread for a long time now and have yet to say a word in here, but I just have to know why most of y'all do not agree that Ryu is top tier, let alone even in the top 10???????

What don't you see? What don't you get? Why don't you understand?

Ever since the start, I have played a wide range of characters, from Robin to Shulk to Charizard to Mewtwo to Mii Swordfighter, but none of them come close to what I have found in Ryu. This character was CREATED for competitive play. There is no reason someone like myself, a COMPETITIVE player, should ever have to switch to another character again for tournament play. He has all the makings of greatness, yet so very few even use him.

I am not the greatest player myself, and my results show it. There's so much left to work on. But why am I one of, if not, the ONLY Ryu mains with any kind of results whatsoever? Why do my results have to hold so much weight with this character? There are SO many better players out there who can be doing what I'm doing with Ryu, but other than 9B.......where are they?

I believe that I am on the verge of the greatest discovery in Smash 4. I may very well be playing the best character in the game.

When I spotdodge a GRAB (literally the entirety of the metagame) and have enough frames to DTILT AND SHORYUKEN YOU AND KILL YOU AT 60% BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN PUT UP YOUR SHIELD.......who else has this?

When I punish a move with FRAME 1 SUPER ARMOR FOCUS ATTACK DASH CANCEL DAIR TO SHORYUKEN AND KILL YOU STARTING AT 40%.......hello? Yes this is Trela, can I help you?

When I confirm off of a Nair or Fair or Dtilt or Utilt in neutral for GUARANTEED 20%-40% THAT CAN LEAD TO YOUR DEATH BY A DAIR OR SHORYUKEN AS EARLY AS 60%.......I'm sorry, who the f**k are you again?

Hell, when I FRAME 1 INVINCIBILITY SHORYUKEN YOU THROUGH JUST ABOUT EVERY SINGLE ATTACK IN THE GAME AND KILL YOU AT, YOU GUESS IT, 60%.......what are you gonna do about it?

Other than my opponent literally being a better player than me.......what am I supposed to be afraid of?

"W-well you see Megaman can-"

LMAO WHO!?!?!?

"Pikachu can combo you with multi-hits and gimp you with relative ease!"

Pikachu can also die to Shoryuken as early as 50% with relative ease, but please, keep going.

"Olimar just keeps him out so well, like what can Ryu even do?"

>Hits a Pikmin with any move Ryu has
>hitlag keeps the move out for the rest of Smash 4's lifespan

Yes, please keep throwing Pikmin at me, I would like to have a word with them

I can keep going, and I will. 20SF will become a reality when I'm through with Ryu.

So go ahead; continue to believe Ryu doesn't have what it takes to truly win with consistency at the top level of play, because if I can't do it, someone else like 9B will. Don't sleep on the man.

Hey, any advice on how I can improve my Ryu? I play a more defensive Ryu.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Well dash attack can be made safe with good spacing and he can follow baby shadow balls ALA Luigi, but foremost among them is that he has quite possibly one of, if not THE best short-hop airdodges in the game.

Edit: I don't think it's too accurate to call Mewtwo floaty, even if he technically is he's certainly from being as floaty as Jigglypuff. His fall speed's pretty close to average.

He's not floaty at all. I don't know who keeps saying that, but NO, Mewtwo is NOT floaty. He has both the same falling speeds as Mario and Robin, who are both average fastfallers.

(PS. Keep in mind, this isn't directed towards you, it's towards people who find Mewtwo floaty).

 

[Ghostbone]

Poor example with diddy since Mewtwo actually isnt combod by dtilt-usmash at that % (or higher), with DI he easily escapes the Usmash. Even when dtilt is point-blank, he can DJ before hes even close enough to the ground to be hit by it.

You're right, those numbers are correct (thats what I get for trusting smashboards KO % threads) however Mewtwo avoids such KO set-ups entirely, so its irrelevant that he dies earlier to that.

What
D-tilt > u-smash true combos, mewtwo can't DI and jump away. (diddy's up-smash has ridiculous range, he doesn't have to wait for you to land to hit you)

He dies only a few % earlier to strong moves like shoryuken and strangely enough dies later to veritcal kill moves than G&W, but dies earlier off the sides.

Shoryuken kills people at like 70, of course the difference is only going to be a few % with that because you only have a few % to work with. The lower knockback on a move, the bigger the % differential.

G&W falls slower so yea he'll die early than mewtwo vertically, weight is a serious problem for G&W too.

 

[Dre89]

He's not floaty at all. I don't know who keeps saying that, but NO, Mewtwo is NOT floaty. He has both the same falling speeds as Mario and Robin, who are both average fastfallers.

(PS. Keep in mind, this isn't directed towards you, it's towards people who find Mewtwo floaty).

I think people get the impression he's floaty because of his slow double jump.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I've been observing this thread for a long time now and have yet to say a word in here, but I just have to know why most of y'all do not agree that Ryu is top tier, let alone even in the top 10???????

What don't you see? What don't you get? Why don't you understand?

Ever since the start, I have played a wide range of characters, from Robin to Shulk to Charizard to Mewtwo to Mii Swordfighter, but none of them come close to what I have found in Ryu. This character was CREATED for competitive play. There is no reason someone like myself, a COMPETITIVE player, should ever have to switch to another character again for tournament play. He has all the makings of greatness, yet so very few even use him.

I am not the greatest player myself, and my results show it. There's so much left to work on. But why am I one of, if not, the ONLY Ryu mains with any kind of results whatsoever? Why do my results have to hold so much weight with this character? There are SO many better players out there who can be doing what I'm doing with Ryu, but other than 9B.......where are they?

I believe that I am on the verge of the greatest discovery in Smash 4. I may very well be playing the best character in the game.

When I spotdodge a GRAB (literally the entirety of the metagame) and have enough frames to DTILT AND SHORYUKEN YOU AND KILL YOU AT 60% BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN PUT UP YOUR SHIELD.......who else has this?

When I punish a move with FRAME 1 SUPER ARMOR FOCUS ATTACK DASH CANCEL DAIR TO SHORYUKEN AND KILL YOU STARTING AT 40%.......hello? Yes this is Trela, can I help you?

When I confirm off of a Nair or Fair or Dtilt or Utilt in neutral for GUARANTEED 20%-40% THAT CAN LEAD TO YOUR DEATH BY A DAIR OR SHORYUKEN AS EARLY AS 60%.......I'm sorry, who the f**k are you again?

Hell, when I FRAME 1 INVINCIBILITY SHORYUKEN YOU THROUGH JUST ABOUT EVERY SINGLE ATTACK IN THE GAME AND KILL YOU AT, YOU GUESS IT, 60%.......what are you gonna do about it?

Other than my opponent literally being a better player than me.......what am I supposed to be afraid of?

"W-well you see Megaman can-"

LMAO WHO!?!?!?

"Pikachu can combo you with multi-hits and gimp you with relative ease!"

Pikachu can also die to Shoryuken as early as 50% with relative ease, but please, keep going.

"Olimar just keeps him out so well, like what can Ryu even do?"

>Hits a Pikmin with any move Ryu has
>hitlag keeps the move out for the rest of Smash 4's lifespan

Yes, please keep throwing Pikmin at me, I would like to have a word with them

I can keep going, and I will. 20SF will become a reality when I'm through with Ryu.

So go ahead; continue to believe Ryu doesn't have what it takes to truly win with consistency at the top level of play, because if I can't do it, someone else like 9B will. Don't sleep on the man.

I've been saying it and gotten frustrated with some of the people who post in here and their opinions on ryu. Honestly, your post sounds alot like EL. I think people don't reslly understand him too much. As for results with ryu EL hooded and BAM do pretty well with him on a regional level. Other thsn 9B I'm not really sure who else is pushing ryu like that. I knkw mr R false and 6wx have pocket ryu's but that's not enough IMO. Hopefully more people learn him.

Could someone explain why M2 is considered to have a decent Rosa MU. I thought he'd struggle in MUs where he has to approach.

He doesn't have a decent MU with Rosalina. If I were you I diregard most of the things said about mewtwo. A lot of them are just talking him up and aren't specific when they talk about him.

 

[Browny]

What
D-tilt > u-smash true combos, mewtwo can't DI and jump away. (diddy's up-smash has ridiculous range, he doesn't have to wait for you to land to hit you)

Shoryuken kills people at like 70, of course the difference is only going to be a few % with that because you only have a few % to work with. The lower knockback on a move, the bigger the % differential.

G&W falls slower so yea he'll die early than mewtwo vertically, weight is a serious problem for G&W too.

Try it properly, it doesnt work.

Its just like falcons dair-falcon punch in melee. Just because its a true combo on fast fallers doesnt mean it combos on anyone else.

Mewtwo flies so far away from diddy that he needs a few extra frames to run closer before upsmashing and mewtwo can jump before the first hitbox comes out.

dtilt-usmash is only a true combo if the enemy falls into the usmash but Mewtwo, like jiggs, just floats too far away for it to work.

 

[Djent]

We're going to need an Evil Ryu palette at this rate.

 

[bc1910]

@Trela I don't know what provoked you into that post but no-one (who knows what they're talking about) has put Ryu outside top 10 since the shieldstun patch.

At the same time, though, said top tiers can be bodied back, especially Falcon. The main reason Fox is tougher than most is due to his reflector.

Nobie did a good job of covering these but I'll also that Sheik's issues also extend to Diddy Kong; he's gonna have some trouble finishing Mewtwo quickly unless he can get a banana -> smash combo.

Oh, and Luigi is probably in Mewtwo's favour after his nerf. Peach is likely even as well.

I'm not denying that, but Mewtwo's gonna get bodied a lot more often. That's what tips the MUs in their favour. Mewtwo isn't helpless against the tops; he really isn't bad enough to be helpless, no-one in this game is. But he's not winning any of the MUs.

 

[TurboLink]

I admit I don't know M2 too well, but I would've thought that his good boxing game but low grab range would've made him better at dealing with approaches rather than doing it himself. What are his viable approach options?



Then you have ZSS, who can kill you earlier than Ganon fsmash. This on top of of being one of the most mobile characters in the game, as well as having an unpunishable disadvantage and having frame advantage on shields.

None of this is justified by having a punishable grab. Her grab reward is insane and landing grabs is not hard at all. It has enormous range and eats rolls and spotdodges that aren't frame perfect. It's also unpunishable by a lot of characters if she whiffs it I front of them.

Doesn't she have setups into grab? SHFF nair, zair, down smash, and neutral special. Also, let's not forget the active frames on her grab. She's the only tether grab user that doesn't get completely screwed over by sidestepping.

 

[Ghostbone]

Try it properly, it doesnt work.
.........
dtilt-usmash is only a true combo if the enemy falls into the usmash but Mewtwo, like jiggs, just floats too far away for it to work.

No he doesn't
You're telling me to try it properly and I'm the Diddy main lmao.
Mewtwo isn't floaty, he doesn't go that high from d-tilt despite being light.

Diddy can just JC u-smash out of a dash immediately and slide far enough to catch mewtwo, maaaaybe mewtwo at max range that's DIing away at higher %s (not the % i listed which is the mimimum he dies) can avoid it, that's not what we're talking about though.
Like if you don't DI Diddy has enough time to start charging U-smash and still combo, with DI you'd just force him to not charge.

@Trela I don't know what provoked you into that post but no-one (who knows what they're talking about) has put Ryu outside top 10 since the shieldstun patch.

He means top 10 isn't good enough, Ryu is certainly top 5.

 

[TriTails]

Doesn't she have setups into grab? SHFF nair, zair, down smash, and neutral special. Also, let's not forget the active frames on her grab. She's the only tether grab user that doesn't get completely screwed over by sidestepping.

...Didn't Trifroze posted a gif somewhere consisting of Luigi spotdodging the grab at max range, ran and SHORYUKAAAAAN?

And Luigi has 1.5 value of dashing speed along with FJP 8 frames of startup. That's probably more than enough for Fox to up smash the crap outta her or Ness to rage B-throw.

Though. I can see the grab box outlasting spotdodges.

 

[Rizen]

The (outdated) OP has Ryu as a 'notable' but not greatest threat character and Mewtwo as a bottom tier. Where do you guys think they fit now?

I don't know too much about either character so take this with a grain of salt:
Ryu is freaking good. Easily top tier (based on the OP). He does seem to struggle with characters who can zone him well but also has incredible reward and setups when he breaks the zoning. IDK about top 5 but definitely top tier.

I still see Mewtwo as underwhelming. I think the Western stage list might hurt him more than the Japanese one because he's huge and light and seems to not do as well with platforms (correct me if I'm wrong). Mewtwo is ridiculously light and that does matter. He does have good tools for zoning but not great and he can't tank the extra effort like certain heavyweights. He has a great kill throw and projectile and good zoning so it's not like he's bottom 5 but more like bottom 15.

 

[Routa]

Me: "So Doc is bottom tier character..."

Person X: "No he is not and here is the reason why..."

Me: "Ok well Samus is...."

Person X: "Nope."

Me: "M2?"

Person X: "Nah..."

Should we rename Bottom and Low tier "Underwhelming Tier"? I personally would prefer this option. It is rather annoying when people say that no character is in bottom or low tier :S

 

[Wintropy]

Me: "So Doc is bottom tier character..."

Person X: "No he is not and here is the reason why..."

Me: "Ok well Samus is...."

Person X: "Nope."

Me: "M2?"

Person X: "Nah..."

Should we rename Bottom and Low tier "Underwhelming Tier"? I personally would prefer this option. It is rather annoying when people say that no character is in bottom or low tier :S

I'd advocate for this, personally, if it got people to face the reality that some characters have to be weaker than everybody else.

I think Shaya's system in the OP is decent; not as an alternative to tiers (which, irrespective of what people think, will exist, even "unofficially"), but as a tidier and more efficient way of determining who is and is not viable. It's been said before, but when you get to the "not viable" section of the roster, does it really matter if Bottom-Tier X beats Bottom-Tier Y?

Relevant: Yeah Ryu's pretty insane. Definitely one of the better characters in my opinion - he just gets such tasty reward for getting in and breaking the opponent's defenses. Very respectable competitive character. What I want to know is, aside from maybe Pikachu (just going by the grape vine), who beats him? Is he beaten by anybody relevant, or is it just a few noteworthy outliers (i.e. Mega Man)?

 

[TriTails]

I'm just going to pop up here to say it's nice to see the thread underwent actual character discussions instead of 'let's buff X and nerf Y hur durr' I recall seeing. I mean, my memory may be shoving me into the wrong slot but I do remember there were tons of them pre-patch.

Great stuffs, if I may say. Keep this up guys.

 

[bc1910]

This game doesn't need a bottom tier IMO. It's fine with the top/high/mid/low structure.

But as I've said before you really don't need to split characters up more than the three groups of viable, semi-viable and unviable. And before low tier mains start whining, unviable does not mean useless. It's a blanket, relative term. "Unviable" characters could still make a big splashin in tournament.

Huh. I might have just convinced myself that "underwhelming" would be a better word than "unviable".

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah I don't see how Ryu being top 5 isn't being considered a whole lot more.

We're talking about a character that goes arguably even with both Sheik and ZSS. Worst matchups are like ... Mega Man and Pac-Man or something? Worst relevant matchup is ... Sonic? At -1? That character obviously has what it takes to win. Watch 9B being like one of the 3ish players out there that can actually take single games off of Nairo's ZSS.

I think he's top 4 right now. Sheik, ZSS and Sonic are probably better but yeah. Character's ridic.

And I'm totally not saying this because I'm a biased Fox main

 

[meleebrawler]

The (outdated) OP has Ryu as a 'notable' but not greatest threat character and Mewtwo as a bottom tier. Where do you guys think they fit now?

I don't know too much about either character so take this with a grain of salt:
Ryu is freaking good. Easily top tier (based on the OP). He does seem to struggle with characters who can zone him well but also has incredible reward and setups when he breaks the zoning. IDK about top 5 but definitely top tier.

I still see Mewtwo as underwhelming. I think the Western stage list might hurt him more than the Japanese one because he's huge and light and seems to not do as well with platforms (correct me if I'm wrong). Mewtwo is ridiculously light and that does matter. He does have good tools for zoning but not great and he can't tank the extra effort like certain heavyweights. He has a great kill throw and projectile and good zoning so it's not like he's bottom 5 but more like bottom 15.

Mewtwo can do a lot of neat stuff with platforms, particularly Battlefield ones, with usmash hitting through them and dthrow placing them up there among other things. The only question is if his opponent benefits even more from them.

 

[Nobie]

I think what the Mewtwo players in this thread are trying to do (or at least what I'm trying to do) is not to say that Mewtwo is good because he beats X or Y character, which seems to be the main arguing factor everyone likes to use. Instead, it's to counter the idea that Mewtwo has nothing going for him, or that the idea that he's easy to kill and gets severely punished for mistakes is his only defining feature.

As some people like to put it, Mewtwo can do a lot but can arguably have more done to him, and some will mark this as a death sentence in terms of whether or not the character can be used. I don't mean, can the character be used over the top tiers, but can the character be used at all. This is where I like to at least state that Mewtwo has plenty of tools to fight just about any character, even if it's likely at a slight or moderate disadvantage in many cases.

This might go back to some older discussion, about what 4:6 really means and such, but I feel like some take that number as the end of the world. Once you go beyond that point, what's left? It's understandable why someone would want to, say, pick a character with mostly 6:4 matchups vs. one who has mostly 4:6 matchups, but that doesn't tell the whole story of how Mewtwo, or indeed any character, fights.

On top of that, there isn't a lot of Mewtwo representation at a high level, and even the best Mewtwos out there still make mistakes. However, rather than talk about how those Mewtwos could have minimized their mistakes, it just goes back to "well Mewtwo is light and easy to kill." He's an unforgiving character, but that doesn't mean he can't do anything. In fact, I wonder if it's better for the game that glass cannons aren't at the top tier.

 

[meleebrawler]

He doesn't have a decent MU with Rosalina. If I were you I diregard most of the things said about mewtwo. A lot of them are just talking him up and aren't specific when they talk about him.

Well, maybe you could be more specific about the Rosalina matchup or the unspecific things said about Mewtwo if you're so smart.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mewtwo has a couple of things going for him. A pretty good keep-away game for example - decently long ranged options that allow him to keep not-super-fast characters like the Swordfighters [minus MK] or Wario at a safe distance.

He just has a LOT going against him and that keeps him from really going anywhere. I think he's a bit like Samus in that regard ... not completely disfuntional but there's just too many scenarios in which he can't make use of his strengths or where his weaknesses can be exploited too easily.

 

[Metalex]

Mewtwo can do a lot of neat stuff with platforms, particularly Battlefield ones, with usmash hitting through them and dthrow placing them up there among other things. The only question is if his opponent benefits even more from them.

Don't forget that Mewtwo also has the benefit of a short ranged teleport cancel from almost every position except the center of the stage on battlefield, i think it gives him a greater chance to escape many situations that he would have a hard time with otherwise

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo has a couple of things going for him. A pretty good keep-away game for example - decently long ranged options that allow him to keep not-super-fast characters like the Swordfighters [minus MK] or Wario at a safe distance.

He just has a LOT going against him and that keeps him from really going anywhere. I think he's a bit like Samus in that regard ... not completely disfuntional but there's just too many scenarios in which he can't make use of his strengths or where his weaknesses can be exploited too easily.

And don't forget the anti-zoning game I highlighted earlier with his specials. I think it might be his biggest niche in terms of practical use.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Didn't 9B call Ryu top 2 in the game?

Character still got room to grow too. He's obviously designed with the competitive scene in mind.

 

[Y2Kay]

Lol. Just realized I haven't joined the Mewtwo Conversation.

I've been playing Mewtwo since melee back when I was a casual, and I have to say, I'm impressed by this discussion. It's kinda made me a little disappointed in myself I gave in to the pressure and dropped playing him competitively. I remember people constantly telling me that since he's light, there was no reason to ever use him. I let his flaws make me forget his strengths. Anti zoning tools, spacing, disjoints, good recovery and power definitely makes him usable. It kinda shows how bottom tier stigmas can effect how people think about a character. I definitely play him more now!

Anyway, what do you guys think of Lucario? I always thought he was a high tier character, potentially top tier in the hands of gutsy but smart player. But I have not seen any of the top lucarios at tourneys, or any lucarios in general, which baffles me.

 

[Routa]

Anyway, what do you guys think of Lucario? I always thought he was a high tier character, potentially top tier in the hands of gutsy but smart player. But I have not seen any of the top lucarios at tourneys, or any lucarios in general, which baffles me.

Oh you want to talk about clone of M2?

/s

Anyways I think most of us don't really know anything about him or just don't have enough Lucario knowledge to talk about him. Why? Very few high lvl players main him.

Anyways I think @Loota would love to share us some of his knowledge about Lucario. What does he have going for him? What he lacks? How good is his MU spread etc...

 

[Amadeus9]

Lol. Are we really trying to be politically correct about what to call bottom tiers? Is someone going to get their feels hurt? ; _ ;

Lucario... I feel like when the meta changes to 3 stock at some point, he'll be a legitimate top tier threat. Aura is completely absurd. His moveset is just ok but aura is like, just as strong as any other mechanic/tool in the game that makes a fighter top tier... He just needs specific circumstances for it to all come together. Scary fighter.

 

[Kaladin]

Aura is comperable to fart in many ways. Once Aura gets built up, like fart, you are always at kill percent. Like fart, Aura is only helpful if you can set up into your strong move -- smashes, bair, aura sphere, etc. And, like fart, the clutch factor is so stong it makes the character and automatic threat that you cannot sleep on.

That said, like fart, Aura does not entirely make up for the cjaracter's other flaws, in this case, frame data Shulk scoffs at. Lucario will always be a solid top 15-20 character, but nothing more in my opinion.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Talking about bottom/low/underwhelming tier characters, I had a thought.

Ganondorf, to simply use the most obvious example, may be in the bottom half of the cast, but even if he theoretically loses every matchup, they all come with a giant footnote that says "don't mess up or you're dead anyway." If you autopilot and get sloppy, he can capitalize and ruin your day.

Are there any characters to which this does not apply? That is, are there any characters (or matchups) in this game that are so bad, you can basically shut off your brain and still win? Or does that footnote apply to everyone, even the bottom of the bottom?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Rest is about the only thing you need to watch out for against Jigglypuff and that's only if you're on your last stock.

Her neutral is just incredibly nonthreatening.

 

[Thinkaman]

Rest is about the only thing you need to watch out for against Jigglypuff and that's only if you're on your last stock.

Her neutral is just incredibly nonthreatening.

So Jigglypuff is basically Wario, without weight or safety on down-b?

 

[Amadeus9]

Talking about bottom/low/underwhelming tier characters, I had a thought.

Ganondorf, to simply use the most obvious example, may be in the bottom half of the cast, but even if he theoretically loses every matchup, they all come with a giant footnote that says "don't mess up or you're dead anyway." If you autopilot and get sloppy, he can capitalize and ruin your day.

Are there any characters to which this does not apply? That is, are there any characters (or matchups) in this game that are so bad, you can basically shut off your brain and still win? Or does that footnote apply to everyone, even the bottom of the bottom?

That's really a very strange line if thought when I think about it, actually. It's like... Palutena is a bad character. But sometimes she can win if she gets all the right reads! ... it's just flawed reasoning. That said, Ganon matchups aren't even that terrible against many characters. He's definitely not bottom 10 imo. It's still just... not a good line of thought to have though. Any fighter can run away with a game if you let them... but that's not really relevant to anything, at all.