Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Kaladin]

I don't see Diddy getting gimped that often. It's really not that simple.

Yes, because people can't force him to go low when he has monkey kick -- we don't know how yet. That said, his up B is kinda booty.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, here we go. Another one of those "my character is broken" montages. This one mostly laments Brawl nerfs:

While I do understand being annoyed at usmash not connecting reliably on ledge hanging opponents like the game says, is that really a big deal when his dsmash is better for that in every conceivable way anyhow?

 

[Yikarur]

if you're forced to use upB with Diddy on most stages you can just go to the other ledge, completely avoiding your opponent.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pika wins neutral. from there, he craps on Ryu's recovery. Look at Trela vs ESAM -- Ryu doesn't get back to the stage.

I completely disagree that pika wins neutral.

Alot of chars do mean things to ryu offstage

 

[LancerStaff]

But in context of Melee, they aren't broken. If Melee Fox was in Smash 4 he would be broken, but that's because the games are different. A game where everyone is broken makes nobody broken, since broken means unbeatable.

Heck, Fox has about 3 even MUs in Melee, yet as of now Sheik in smash 4 has no even match-ups. When compared, that makes Sheik more broken than fox because she is less beatable. Right? Is @flamran saying Sheik is broken too? No, because smash 4 and Melee are seperate games.

Smash 4 Sheik has even matchups though, and doesn't dominate the lower characters as hard.

Even then, I've seen people put Melee Fox in his own tier or at least with one or two other characters... The latest official tier list simplified the tiers because everybody was assuming that'd be the last one, right?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The BF nerf was unnecessary. I don't like how unreliable the move is now.

Bouncing Fish?

 

[TurboLink]

Bouncing Fish?

Yes, the fish that bounces.

 

[KenMeister]

Pika wins neutral. from there, he craps on Ryu's recovery. Look at Trela vs ESAM -- Ryu doesn't get back to the stage.

That was a psychological factor more than anything to be honest, even Trela himself mentioned he was afraid to face ESAM the most in Top 32 (which ESAM was aware of), hence the head rub at the end. Same goes for the Ness players vs Dabuz's Rosa.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Doesn't Fox have better true combos, better damage output, and more reliable kill moves?

This is why you don't understand my point. Fox is broken compared to Sheik, but that's like comparing Pro Basketball players to kids in the house leagues. A pro basketball player would definitely be OP and Broken in a house league, but this pro isn't a "broken" player. If Melee fox was in smash 4 he would be broken, but in Melee enough characters stand a chance against him to make him not broken. He is beatable.

Smash 4 Sheik has even matchups though, and doesn't dominate the lower characters as hard.

Even then, I've seen people put Melee Fox in his own tier or at least with one or two other characters... The latest official tier list simplified the tiers because everybody was assuming that'd be the last one, right?

Im not arguing fox isn't amazing, because he is and he's undoubtedly the best. People who put Fox in his own tier are simply wrong because he only dominates one top tier (Puff) and Marth/Falco also have really polarizing MUs. If Fox is in a tier of 3 then he's not broken.

 

[TurboLink]

This is why you don't understand my point. Fox is broken compared to Sheik, but that's like comparing Pro Basketball players to kids in the house leagues. A pro basketball player would definitely be OP and Broken in a house league, but this pro isn't a "broken" player. If Melee fox was in smash 4 he would be broken, but in Melee enough characters stand a chance against him to make him not broken. He is beatable.

Im not arguing fox isn't amazing, because he is and he's undoubtedly the best. People who put Fox in his own tier are simply wrong because he only dominates one top tier (Puff) and Marth/Falco also have really polarizing MUs. If Fox is in a tier of 3 then he's not broken.

How many characters stand a chance against Sheik? I'm not asking how many have even match-ups but I'm asking how many have match-ups that aren't unwinnable in your opinion.

I'd much rather deal with Smash 4 Sheik than have to deal with something like this.

 

[Vipermoon]

The fact that you mentioned Sheik players hitting players with it off-stage as an example of how reliable it is is proof of how unreliable it is. How is taking away knockback from a kill move not making it less reliable? Try killing someone with it at the center of the stage.

I always forget that the 3DS blast zones are bigger.

No one will throw out BF (seemingly in neutral) to hit at that part of a stage. Even Nair > BF usually ends up off-stage.

Well, here we go. Another one of those "my character is broken" montages. This one mostly laments Brawl nerfs:

While I do understand being annoyed at usmash not connecting reliably on ledge hanging opponents like the game says, is that really a big deal when his dsmash is better for that in every conceivable way anyhow?

Pointing out the obvious but Lucas's Usmash is actually really bad. I'm not sure about this but it seems weaker and laggier than Brawl. Even rage doesn't help it that much due to low base KB.

This is in a game where Usmashes now have great power and usually range. Lucas's isn't as strong in this game if only because others caught up.

He doesn't have good Usmash setups either and it's reactable.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

How many characters stand a chance against Sheik? I'm not asking how many have even match-ups but I'm asking how many have match-ups that aren't unwinnable in your opinion.

I'd much rather deal with Smash 4 Sheik than have to deal with something like this.

You aren't understanding my point. Smash 4 and Melee are different games.

Balance in Melee is different than balance in Smash 4. A lot of characters in Melee have janky, seemingly unfair things and cool combos. My point is that you can't relate these two characters because balance is COMPLETELY different between Melee and smash 4.

 

[teluoborg]

I don't think I've seen anyone ever agree to this.
Especially since the brawl system has always been the normal ratios Rizen posted last page.

Outside of crazy pikachu mains back then using decimals when doing their own MU chart. PIKACHU VS META KNIGHT IS 52.5/47.5

Also only like two people in the brawl days thought MK vs Pikachu was even, ESAM and Tagxy.

Yet people agree that 6-4 amounts to slight advantage. See where I'm coming from ?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Im not arguing fox isn't amazing, because he is and he's undoubtedly the best. People who put Fox in his own tier are simply wrong because he only dominates one top tier (Puff) and Marth/Falco also have really polarizing MUs. If Fox is in a tier of 3 then he's not broken.

On top of that, some put ZSS in the same tier as Sheik, so maybe it could be safe to say that 64 Pika and Brawl MK are the only characters to truly be in their own tier.

 

[LancerStaff]

Im not arguing fox isn't amazing, because he is and he's undoubtedly the best. People who put Fox in his own tier are simply wrong because he only dominates one top tier (Puff) and Marth/Falco also have really polarizing MUs. If Fox is in a tier of 3 then he's not broken.

Brawl MK wouldn't of been justified if there had been another two equally broken characters. That'd just mean the game is more broke. Even if we look at something like Kid Icarus Uprising where we have essentially twenty MKs to deal with out of a hundred weapons they're still broke, just more broke stuff then other games.

It's variety vs. equality, and I think most of us prefer equality.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Brawl MK wouldn't of been justified if there had been another two equally broken characters. That'd just mean the game is more broke. Even if we look at something like Kid Icarus Uprising where we have essentially twenty MKs to deal with out of a hundred weapons they're still broke, just more broke stuff then other games.

It's variety vs. equality, and I think most of us prefer equality.

But now you're saying Fox, Marth, and Falco are broken, since there are 3, right? That's completely wrong. If you think this you don't follow Melee. If there are 3 broke characters they are still broke, but it makes a single broke character less broke.

but Marth Falco and fox aren't broken.

 

[Wintermelon43]

On top of that, some put ZSS in the same tier as Sheik, so maybe it could be safe to say that 64 Pika and Brawl MK are the only characters to truly be in their own tier.

The new tier list for Smash 64 has Kirby in there with Pika (If only smash 4 Kirby was in the same tier as Smash 4 Pikachu), so it's only Brawl MK in his own tier.

And I think Pika is in the same tier as ZSS and Sheik too.

 

[LancerStaff]

But now you're saying Fox, Marth, and Falco are broken, since there are 3, right? That's completely wrong. If you think this you don't follow Melee. If there are 3 broke characters they are still broke, but it makes a single broke character less broke.

but Marth Falco and fox aren't broken.

No... Having more broke characters just encourages people to play said broke characters (and complain when they're made mortal). From the standpoint of let's say Bowser, he'd rather just have Sheik to deal with in Smash 4 instead of Marth, Fox and Falco in Melee. For everybody besides the broken characters it's better to have fair characters.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

No... Having more broke characters just encourages people to play said broke characters (and complain when they're made mortal). From the standpoint of let's say Bowser, he'd rather just have Sheik to deal with in Smash 4 instead of Marth, Fox and Falco in Melee. For everybody besides the broken characters it's better to have fair characters.

I never said having broke characters is good, but the characters around him are the ones that dictate if he's broken. Fox would be INSANELY broken if all the other characters were like Melee Kirby. If a game has, let's say, 6 completely broken characters, the game is not balanced well at all. Individually though broken example #1 would be less broken than if there were no other broken counterparts. He is still broken, but not as broken.

Also I'm gonna make this clear, being top tier doesn't make you broken.

edit: also stop comparing Melee balance to sm4sh balance, they are two different games.

 

[Locke 06]

Stop this topic. A thread like this should not be talking about Kid Icarus' balance or "what if Melee Kirby had throws." (Not to pick on you two specifically)

You want to talk about the definition of "game breaking" you can take it somewhere else, unless you think Sheik breaks smash 4. In which case, you can watch a lot of videos that show Sheik losing, analyze why she lost, and see that characters have tools to beat her.

Instead of shouting "broken top tier," do some analysis to come to your conclusions. Make some thoughtful points about the game and you might come away with an interesting discussion instead of fighting over an opinionated subjective claim.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Stop this topic. A thread like this should not be talking about Kid Icarus' balance or "what if Melee Kirby had throws." (Not to pick on you two specifically)

You want to talk about the definition of "game breaking" you can take it somewhere else, unless you think Sheik breaks smash 4. In which case, you can watch a lot of videos that show Sheik losing, analyze why she lost, and see that characters have tools to beat her.

Instead of shouting "broken top tier," do some analysis to come to your conclusions. Make some thoughtful points about the game and you might come away with an interesting discussion instead of fighting over an opinionated subjective claim.

Sheik isn't broken that wasn't myvpoint, my point was that you can't compare Sheik in 4 to Fox in Meee, because doing so could lead to that conclusion.

Who does Sheik go even with? Some say Lucario, I personally disagree with people saying MK/Kirby, ZSS maybe, Pika maybe. We should get people to really analyze this and come up with a reliable conclusion.

 

[Djent]

The psychological factors in play during Trela vs. ESAM were so strong that it basically nullifies any evidential value that match could have in helping to determine the MU ratio. I mean, just look at game 2. No one gets bodied that hard if they play it right; even "+4" MUs in other games frequently feature more damage dealt by the loser who supposedly "can't do anything." Outcomes this extreme occur in <1/100 matches at top level.

We really don't have any good high-level example of Pika vs. Ryu as of now (thankfully 9B is coming to Genesis), so I'm not going to spend much time arguing against any ratio within the +/-1 range.

RE: Diddy, I think he goes approximately even with Sheik and ZSS. You can argue that they're not truly even MUs, but I don't think we have enough evidence to distinguish them from "evenish" (keeping in the spirit of broader categorization). Unfortunately I also think he loses to Rosa, Fox, and Sonic, possibly others. I'm actually not sure that Pikachu wins, though I also don't think it's "bad" for the rat like it once was.

He's a generally strong character who matches up fairly well vs. the top two but his spread is otherwise unimpressive... Hey wait, this is starting to sound like a description of Brawl Diddy! And we know that he remained relevant up until the very end of the game's lifespan. I'll predict the same for S4 Diddy barring any huge changes (which might still come sadly). If he's outside of top 10, it's because the game is ****ing balanced, not because there's anything inherently wrong with him.

 

[Nobie]

One thing I find fascinating about Smash, and what can make it difficult to balance, is the division between damage and KOs. In other fighting games, every hit you land directly translates to you being one step closer to victory. A spinning pile driver is a damage dealer and a killer in one. In Smash, damage dealt translates to potential to win, but as long as the stock remains intact it remains as potential. This is made all the more complicated by Rage, though perhaps it is exactly what turns some moves into multipurpose tools.

I think part of the way that the game has been balanced has been to envision the ups and downs of one's game plan at low, mid, and high percents. The more cohesive and comprehensive the plan is from start to finish, the more likely (though not guaranteed) they will be a better character.

To make this more concrete, I feel like a character like Zelda needs either something to aid her in the neutral game, or something she can work towards as a reliable kill. Mewtwo can aim for up throw eventually, but Zelda has no such luxury.

 

[G. Stache]

Sheik isn't broken that wasn't myvpoint, my point was that you can't compare Sheik in 4 to Fox in Meee, because doing so could lead to that conclusion.

Who does Sheik go even with? Some say Lucario, I personally disagree with people saying MK/Kirby, ZSS maybe, Pika maybe. We should get people to really analyze this and come up with a reliable conclusion.

I'm gonna bring up Mario once again, as I've heard he goes even with sheik (which, in a way, makes sense since he has fairly even MUs across the board). I'm also one of the people who think MK might just go even with sheik. I think Nairo also proved that an optimally played ZSS has enough tools to go even with Sheik (however, as hype as the match was, I'd personally like to see more future games of Nairo V Zero to strengthen/weaken that theory). Pika also might, but the overhype is strong with Pika, so it's too hard to listen to a lot of pika mains.

 

[wedl!!]

Nobie things like your post are so important in a discussion about Mewtwo relative to other characters. Unfortunately, people will still go on saying Mewtwo is a bottom 3 character even after reading it because "lol juggles" even despite the fact he is closer to being complete than most of the other bad characters.

 

[Kaladin]

Nobie things like your post are so important in a discussion about Mewtwo relative to other characters. Unfortunately, people will still go on saying Mewtwo is a bottom 3 character even after reading it because "lol juggles" even despite the fact he is closer to being complete than most of the other bad characters.

Characters worse than MewTwo: ...? In a vacuum (lel) MewTwo isn't bad. In comparison to the rest of the cast, however, he is simply underwhelming? (I'd argue Palutena is better because results.)

 

[Jams.]

RE: Diddy, I think he goes approximately even with Sheik and ZSS. You can argue that they're not truly even MUs, but I don't think we have enough evidence to distinguish them from "evenish" (keeping in the spirit of broader categorization). Unfortunately I also think he loses to Rosa, Fox, and Sonic, possibly others. I'm actually not sure that Pikachu wins, though I also don't think it's "bad" for the rat like it once was.

He's a generally strong character who matches up fairly well vs. the top two but his spread is otherwise unimpressive... Hey wait, this is starting to sound like a description of Brawl Diddy! And we know that he remained relevant up until the very end of the game's lifespan. I'll predict the same for S4 Diddy barring any huge changes (which might still come sadly). If he's outside of top 10, it's because the game is ****ing balanced, not because there's anything inherently wrong with him.

I don't think anyone reasonable is arguing that Diddy is in a bad spot or needs buffs. However, the comparison to Brawl Diddy is not entirely accurate. In Brawl, very few characters had the luxury of decent matchups versus both MK and ICs, whereas in Smash 4 there are a decent number of characters who can handle both Sheik and ZSS about as well as Diddy (ie. Ryu, Fox, Pikachu, maybe Mario, Sonic, and MK). In addition, character usage is much more spread out in this game, whereas Brawl was highly centralized around MK. Thus, having a decent matchup versus the top two characters is not as valuable in Smash 4.

I agree with your conclusions though. Diddy will stay relevant barring major changes, and if he is outside of top 10 it is because of good game balance rather than anything sub par about the character.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think it's fair to Mewtwo to compare him to Zelda, personally.

His kit as a whole I think is, moveset wise, very good. But mistakes are costly which is why I consider him not very good (Dunno if I'd say Bottom 5 or esp. not Bottom 3 lool). But low survivability and his big frame + his kit not being like, phenomenal (it's just good to above average I'd say).

It's a rare case of problems that are small in quantity but large in actual effect.

 

[Wintropy]

Characters worse than MewTwo: ...? In a vacuum (lel) MewTwo isn't bad. In comparison to the rest of the cast, however, he is simply underwhelming? (I'd argue Palutena is better because results.)

Palutena has results, but to be fair, she has some pretty good players repping her (Aerolink, Iceninja, Ryo). If Mewtwo had good players outside of Japan repping him, I don't doubt he'd be more of a threat than she is.

I have to wonder how much of it is intrinsic fear of the character's viability. Can't help but think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - "Mewtwo is bad, so I won't play him, so he won't get better results, so he will stay bad." It might have something to do with Japan's playstyle compared to the US's (optimisation vs efficiency), since optimal Mewtwo is pretty respectable, but anything weaker than that isn't really worth commenting on.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Palutena has results, but to be fair, she has some pretty good players repping her (Aerolink, Iceninja, Ryo). If Mewtwo had good players outside of Japan repping him, I don't doubt he'd be more of a threat than she is.

I have to wonder how much of it is intrinsic fear of the character's viability. Can't help but think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - "Mewtwo is bad, so I won't play him, so he won't get better results, so he will stay bad." It might have something to do with Japan's playstyle compared to the US's (optimisation vs efficiency), since optimal Mewtwo is pretty respectable, but anything weaker than that isn't really worth commenting on.

A lot of why I stopped going in on Mewtwo was because I hated being really really light. A lot of other characters who have this issue were either small in frame or had more radically strong/positive attributes.

But as a low/mid at best level player, Mewtwo will probably never appeal to me truly because of how little mistakes add up A LOT FASTER.

It's definitely understandable why people wouldn't want to go in on the character though. There's money on the line and some people really don't want to risk playing a character that dies really early compared to the roster at large while also being tall. It's not even his moveset, I think it's just the fact that you have to get outplayed less to lose your stocks comparatively, and as you get farther in tournament the chance of that happening just grows.

 

[Wintropy]

A lot of why I stopped going in on Mewtwo was because I hated being really really light. A lot of other characters who have this issue were either small in frame or had more radically strong/positive attributes.

But as a low/mid at best level player, Mewtwo will probably never appeal to me truly because of how little mistakes add up A LOT FASTER.

It's definitely understandable why people wouldn't want to go in on the character though. There's money on the line and some people really don't want to risk playing a character that dies really early compared to the roster at large while also being tall. It's not even his moveset, I think it's just the fact that you have to get outplayed less to lose your stocks comparatively, and as you get farther in tournament the chance of that happening just grows.

Exactly. There's a psychological element to it; there's a sense that, by picking Mewtwo, you're at a disadvantage before you even press start on the CSS. That's fair. I mean, he's pretty heavily disadvantaged by his very design. It takes a great deal of confidence to bet your winnings on a character of that distinction.

In a sense, he's the direct opposite of Ganondorf: he has a decent neutral game and doesn't have much difficulty connecting hits, and he even has a respectable degree of power to back it up, but he dies faster than other characters and just cannot take a punch. Same bottom line either way: he's good at what he does, but the higher up you go, the more difficult it is to sustain that kind of design. It's a shame, but that's how it goes. 20XX Mewtwo is probably the stuff of nightmares, but 2015 Mewtwo is more of a weird daydream.

 

[Locke 06]

A lot of why I stopped going in on Mewtwo was because I hated being really really light. A lot of other characters who have this issue were either small in frame or had more radically strong/positive attributes.

But as a low/mid at best level player, Mewtwo will probably never appeal to me truly because of how little mistakes add up A LOT FASTER.

It's definitely understandable why people wouldn't want to go in on the character though. There's money on the line and some people really don't want to risk playing a character that dies really early compared to the roster at large while also being tall. It's not even his moveset, I think it's just the fact that you have to get outplayed less to lose your stocks comparatively, and as you get farther in tournament the chance of that happening just grows.

Compounding on this is that at a high level, there are mewtwo specific things that can be done to him. Combo %'s for this character on strong combos, Falcon dthrow>knee for example, are super wide. Greninja can go true ~ 0-60 via footstool shenanigans.

And then dumb things like getting killed by rage rapid jab finishers (high base knockback) at dumb percents because other light characters will get out of rapid jabs before the finisher.

 

[wedl!!]

Allow me to be perfectly clear: Mewtwo is a bad character.
He's just more complete a character than most of the other low tiers, held back by a really crippling flaw (which is especially detrimental in this game's meta).

 

[TTTTTsd]

The best way it was put to me was my friend who happens to play the character.

He simply said "He has pretty decent strengths but they're backed up by much more prominent and larger weaknesses." A lot of his problems don't really come from his moveset at all, which is really unfortunate.

It's also kind of weird how a lot of his attributes are similar to Mario (fall speed, ground and air speed, NOT Air accel or air control though he's got pretty poor drift in the air). I really don't know what they were going for with this character in a 1v1 sense. He's pretty competent in other game modes however.

 

[adom4]

Exactly. There's a psychological element to it; there's a sense that, by picking Mewtwo, you're at a disadvantage before you even press start on the CSS. That's fair. I mean, he's pretty heavily disadvantaged by his very design. It takes a great deal of confidence to bet your winnings on a character of that distinction.

In a sense, he's the direct opposite of Ganondorf: he has a decent neutral game and doesn't have much difficulty connecting hits, and he even has a respectable degree of power to back it up, but he dies faster than other characters and just cannot take a punch. Same bottom line either way: he's good at what he does, but the higher up you go, the more difficult it is to sustain that kind of design. It's a shame, but that's how it goes. 20XX Mewtwo is probably the stuff of nightmares, but 2015 Mewtwo is more of a weird daydream.

Honestly he feels like Ganondorf for me, great tools but the characters themselves are so flawed it holds them back (I main both).

 

[Wintropy]

I really don't know what they were going for with this character in a 1v1 sense.

They probably...weren't going for anything. I don't know precisely how balance is done in this game (if you're reading this, PLEASE don't turn this into a debate about how "the game is balanced for FFAs instead of 1v1; I think I speak for everybody here when I say we don't care), but I remember it being mentioned that Melee balanced its characters for different modes to some extent (Fox being the epitome of a 1v1-oriented character). It's possible that 1v1 balance just took a backseat for Mewtwo or they couldn't figure out a way to balance him sufficiently for 1v1 without overtuning his kit in other mods.

I dunno, just spitballin'. Either way, yeah, he's got good options, but he's got bad weaknesses too. I don't think he's irredeemable or absolute bottom-tier trash or anything, but I don't think he's sustainable in top-level play, not the way he is right now. Not disgusting refuse () but definitely not good either ().

Honestly he feels like Ganondorf for me, great tools but the characters themselves are so flawed it holds them back (I main both).

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. When I say opposite, I mean in a direct design sense: Ganondorf is incredibly heavy and a defensive tank, but he has difficulty connecting hits; Mewtwo's versatile and has good footsies, but he can't take a punch. Either way, the effect is the exact same in execution. Good kits, weak design.

 

[FullMoon]

I don't think Mewtwo is more vulnerable to Greninja's foostool stuff than any other character. In fact light characters are the ones that care the least about them.

It's probably heavyweights that suffer the most from them since their weight makes them not be launched as far from N-Air, making the footstool connect for longer and so our combos on them last longer which means even more damage.

Unless I'm missing something here Mewtwo is not particularly vulnerable to our shenanigans.

 

[⑨ball]

One thing I find fascinating about Smash, and what can make it difficult to balance, is the division between damage and KOs. In other fighting games, every hit you land directly translates to you being one step closer to victory. A spinning pile driver is a damage dealer and a killer in one. In Smash, damage dealt translates to potential to win, but as long as the stock remains intact it remains as potential. This is made all the more complicated by Rage, though perhaps it is exactly what turns some moves into multipurpose tools.

I think part of the way that the game has been balanced has been to envision the ups and downs of one's game plan at low, mid, and high percents. The more cohesive and comprehensive the plan is from start to finish, the more likely (though not guaranteed) they will be a better character.

To make this more concrete, I feel like a character like Zelda needs either something to aid her in the neutral game, or something she can work towards as a reliable kill. Mewtwo can aim for up throw eventually, but Zelda has no such luxury.

I feel like the two are pretty relatable for all intents and purpose. Regardless of the fighting game if you don't finish your food, all you've done can always amount to nothing and balancing makes the most sense when gameplay states are weighed against each other relative to risk/reward. Rage is essentially super meter, or in the case of SF4, Ultra meter.

Zelda has nair> usmash/upB, which is about as good a kill confirm as any (excluding grabs), but yeah some tools she could use consistently in neutral would benefit her immensely.

 

[meleebrawler]

They probably...weren't going for anything. I don't know precisely how balance is done in this game (if you're reading this, PLEASE don't turn this into a debate about how "the game is balanced for FFAs instead of 1v1; I think I speak for everybody here when I say we don't care), but I remember it being mentioned that Melee balanced its characters for different modes to some extent (Fox being the epitome of a 1v1-oriented character). It's possible that 1v1 balance just took a backseat for Mewtwo or they couldn't figure out a way to balance him sufficiently for 1v1 without overtuning his kit in other mods.

I dunno, just spitballin'. Either way, yeah, he's got good options, but he's got bad weaknesses too. I don't think he's irredeemable or absolute bottom-tier trash or anything, but I don't think he's sustainable in top-level play, not the way he is right now. Not disgusting refuse () but definitely not good either ().



Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. When I say opposite, I mean in a direct design sense: Ganondorf is incredibly heavy and a defensive tank, but he has difficulty connecting hits; Mewtwo's versatile and has good footsies, but he can't take a punch. Either way, the effect is the exact same in execution. Good kits, weak design.

Except Mewtwo's tools lend themselves well to be used as a counterpick/secondary, particularly against zoners. Mobility + reflector + projectile that can plow through others generally make trying to lame Mewtwo out a poor strategy.

Whereas with Ganondorf it's hard to think of a valid reason to want to bring him in any particular matchup unless you're committed to him or are totally confident you've downloaded your opponent.

For this reason I see him as being on the same level as the likes of Dr. Mario; possesses tools that make him very desirable in certain MUs but flaws prevent him from being consistent up high.

 

[C0rvus]

Mewtwo can play safe, has a gameplan that he can realistically enact, and has some decent mixup potential. In no way a bottom 3 character. He's a pretty complete character, but he has a big weakness.