Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[teluoborg]

Can we all agree to use the Brawl MU system of: 0 even, +/-1 slight advantage/disadvantage, +/-2 solid advantage/disadvantage, +/-3 Strong advantage/disadvantage or counter-pick, +/-4 realistically unlosable/unwinnable.

It doesn't matter if you choose the +/- system or the percentile system because none of them makes sense.
If you want to use the +/- system in hopes that people stop talking about 55-45 and 57-43 then I have bad news for you, after being part of the last 2 brawl matchup panels I can assure you that there were people trying to argue that a matchup was +1.5 for them.
If you want to use the +/- system because it has clear definitions then give up because it doesn't. Not two people have the same delimitation between "slight", "solid" and "strong" and no matchup is virtually unwinnable.

The only way matchups should be summarized is by "advantage, neutral, disadvantage" and then explaining in what part of the matchups those discrepencies lie. Any attempt to objectively list matchups relatively with each other by using a numeral system will end in blood and tears.

 

[Yikarur]

if people argued it's "+1,5" they use the system wrong at that very moment, because +1.5 does not exist.
The meaning of slight and solid is pretty much set in the dictionary.
It's not that hard to use.
Ratios of 100 are stupid and should not be a thing.

 

[Spinosaurus]

My difficulty with playing Ryu comes from how he moves and how his normals work. Inputs take like 5 minutes to get down. (But in the context of Smash, can be pretty easy to mess up making them more precise then they should be)

In a way, the guy is playing Street Fighter while every other character is playing Smash. Does Ryu even need to approach when he's amazing at whiff punishing and counter poking?

 

[L9999]

I think its because of how Dabuz tends to **** Ness during tournaments like in EVO during his match against FOW and in CEO vs. Shaky.

It's the psychological factor more than anything. Bad matchup/it's Dabuz thoughts. FOW was obviously extremely nervous in EVO and Shaky got nervous in game 2 of CEO. Plus, Dabuz is likely better than every Ness player around. And Shaky could beat Dabuz, but then Dabuz does what he does best and gets in his head. I would surely cry or get all nervous if played Dabuz, but the matchup is not unwinnable, and the psychological factor is true.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I know I'm a day late for this, but let me just clear up some things on the vs match-up.

Even though Kirby can duck under needles, unless he holds duck its useless because he has to read needles. Staying in duck is also bad, because they can get fully charged needles and start hopping around you when you are trying just to duck.

Sheik needing to approach if Kirby Is winning is winning is good, but Sheik is good at approaching, and Kirby can't really punish her fast moves, which make it hard to start combos. Her speed also makes our lives torture because we practically have the speed of a boulder on the ground and in the air.

Her recovery is not gimpable unless we can bait out options with f-air. F-air is good for interrupting jumps/BF offstage and if we can even get one of those she immediately becomes easier to gimp.

Our **** airspeed already makes juggling hard, but Sheik can just Bouncing fish if our combo no longer is guaranteed. Kirby's bad neutral gets weakened by her ability to reset (which is why Pikachu is such a hard MU also).

The only things we have are our reward on an U-tilt being really high, ducking under needles, and getting needles on our own, but forcing her to approach doesn't make the MU good.

Our floatiness/size make it hard to get combo'd so that's good, but at the same time it doesn't matter because she can still land more single hits than us.

It's not an awful MU, 4:6, but it's far from even.

 

[Froggy]

Shiek doesn't have any even matchups. People need to stop claiming she does.

 

[Smog Frog]

except she probably does. being the best in the game doesnt automatically bar you from even matchups. recent results suggest that may go even with .

also, something that just gets on my nerves is the frequent misspelling of name. it's s-h-e-i-k. phonetically it does sound like s-h-i-e-k but it's s-h-e-i-k.

 

[Yikarur]

it's Shiek in german 8)
and I'm pretty sure that every MK player has more experience in the Sheik MU than vice versa so we have to wait if the trend continious of if people get better at the MU. I think Sheik has no even MU's with equal Top MU knowledge.

 

[williamsga555]

The Ryu matchup post earlier is missing King Dedede, as far as I can see. Wondering what you think of the matchup.

Edit: @Kirby Dragons beat me to it. Late mobile updates whoops!

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Sheik has no even matchups?
Wake up. Even Melee Fox has even matchups, and Sheik isn't nearly as dominating.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Meta Knight in Brawl was OP enough to not have even match-ups, and he's SS tier. A character who isn't even a tier above other top tiers has even MUs.

 

[Vechizen]

The Ryu matchup post earlier is missing King Dedede, as far as I can see. Wondering what you think of the matchup.

Edit: @Kirby Dragons beat me to it. Late mobile updates whoops!

I edited my post to include D3. I think it is a strong advantage to Ryu.

 

[teluoborg]

if people argued it's "+1,5" they use the system wrong at that very moment, because +1.5 does not exist.
The meaning of slight and solid is pretty much set in the dictionary.
It's not that hard to use.
Ratios of 100 are stupid and should not be a thing.

It doesn't matter if +1.5 doesn't exist in the system because 1-the system doesn't make sense and 2-everyone understand what +1.5 means in this context.
And how does the dictionary definition of "slight" translate in matchup summary ?
And ratios of 100 are used the same way the +/- are used, pretty much everyone agrees +1 is 6-4

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

If people can't even settle on a consistent top 3, top 5 is most certainly debatable. No matter how big you make the distinctions, they're all going to suffer from the same list-making problem: you'll reach the last spot and still have ~5 deserving characters who slipped your mind competing for it.

True.

 

[lilmacluvr]

Sheik has no even matchups?
Wake up. Even Melee Fox has even matchups, and Sheik isn't nearly as dominating.

sheik literally just needles you and down throw up air kills you
so lol saying she has even matches is kind of like saying that captain falcon has an even matchup with fox in melee

 

[Yikarur]

Contender for an even MU with Sheik are ZSS, Rosalina, Diddy, MK and Ryu.

Does anyone have a link to Leo vs. Vinnie ? I want to watch that.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Meta Knight in Brawl was OP enough to not have even match-ups, and he's SS tier. A character who isn't even a tier above other top tiers has even MUs.

Even with Pikachu. Please learn before it's too late.

sheik literally just needles you and down throw up air kills you
so lol saying she has even matches is kind of like saying that captain falcon has an even matchup with fox in melee

I don't know if we play the same game because she ain't that simple nor that infallible as a character.

 

[Yikarur]

MK vs. Pikachu was not even at all in Brawl. It was just ESAM stubbornly discussing for that being the case (while he was still losing to almost any top MK)

 

[Y2Kay]

Doesn't brawl MK go even with Falco?

 

[Xxaz_v]

Lack of safe kill options?! FSmash is a move you know...

And I'm M2K.

How is FSmash even a little safe?

 

[FoxBrawler269]

Can we talk about how seriously Fox needs to be buffed. He's already great, but he isn't good enough for competitive.

Going from melee to this game is awful. Seriously, he used to be so great, but now he can't do anything compared to melee fox

 

[Deleted member]

Doesn't brawl MK go even with Falco?

It's usually considered even, or a slight disadvantage for Falco at worst (though the biggest thing going against Falco in that MU is his recovery being kinda pants). MK also went even with Pikachu in Brawl, but if anything the main reason that's the most accepted viewpoint of the MU is ESAM's amazing ability with Pika.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Even with Pikachu. Please learn before it's too late.

I don't know if we play the same game because she ain't that simple nor that infallible as a character.

WTF? You're clearly uneducated in Brawl if you think Pika is even with MK. ESAM only said that to generate hope for MK not being super OP. He even admitted later he always knew Pika lost the MU but he just told everyone that to get them hyped.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Can we talk about how seriously Fox needs to be buffed. He's already great, but he isn't good enough for competitive.

How is he not good enough when he has been getting results everywhere?

 

[Antonykun]

And I'm M2K.

How is FSmash even a little safe?

If you are not willing to see how that absurdly low endlag that move is as "even a little safe" then IDK what you define safe as

Can we talk about how seriously Fox needs to be buffed. He's already great, but he isn't good enough for competitive.

I can't name 10 characters who are definitely more viable than Fox and here you are saying that he's not competitive AND he needs to get buffed?
Melee Fox is an ungodly broken monstrosity that is only held back because he is being controlled by a human so of course Smash 4 Fox can't do much compared to Melee Fox asking him to do so would be throwing the careful balance of Smash 4 out the window

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

If you are not willing to see how that absurdly low endlag that move is as "even a little safe" then IDK what you define safe as


I can't name 10 characters who are definitely more viable than Fox and here you are saying that he's not competitive AND he needs to get buffed?
Melee Fox is an ungodly broken monstrosity that is only held back because he is being controlled by a human so of course Smash 4 Fox can't do much compared to Melee Fox asking him to do so would be throwing the careful balance of Smash 4 out the window

Well I mean broken is the wrong term for Melee Fox but undoubtedly the best for sure.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: nvm, don't wanna start anything

 

[Rashyboy05]

Can we talk about how seriously Fox needs to be buffed. He's already great, but he isn't good enough for competitive.

Going from melee to this game is awful. Seriously, he used to be so great, but now he can't do anything compared to melee fox

Spoiler: The most relevant reaction

Not sure if you are trolling or not but seriously, how is a character that is considered to be among the Top 10/15 in tier lists and a character that has tournament results in Smash 4 considered "not good enough for competitive"?

 

[Jamurai]

And I'm M2K.

How is FSmash even a little safe?

I wouldn't advise making jokes like that when you clearly don't know what you're talking about, you just sound silly. Fsmash has little endlag (18 frames), a large hitbox, ridiculous power (and is therefore something you should be wary about trying to punish), and is safe on block. It's similar to Ganon's Usmash and Mewtwo's Dsmash in these regards. It used to be a good baiting tool but pretty sure everyone knows about its safety now, so no one good tries to punish it anymore. It's one of his best moves.

sheik literally just needles you and down throw up air kills you
so lol saying she has even matches is kind of like saying that captain falcon has an even matchup with fox in melee

Can we talk about how seriously Fox needs to be buffed. He's already great, but he isn't good enough for competitive.

These are good examples of posts we should probably ignore guys... The internet points aren't worth it.

 

[TurboLink]

Can we talk about how seriously Fox needs to be buffed. He's already great, but he isn't good enough for competitive.

Let me guess, you came from /r/Smashbros? And why do you think a high/top tier character needs buffs?

 

[Man Li Gi]

WTF? You're clearly uneducated in Brawl if you think Pika is even with MK. ESAM only said that to generate hope for MK not being super OP. He even admitted later he always knew Pika lost the MU but he just told everyone that to get them hyped.

Well the MU charts still state that he's even with Pika. Considering that Brawl is my favorite and know things like the back of my hand in it, I'm well versed in it.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Well the MU charts still state that he's even with Pika. Considering that Brawl is my favorite and know things like the back of my hand in it, I'm well versed in it.

You mean the smashwiki MU chart? It's literalky known for being inaccurate. It's just as effective going on event hubs.

 

[Sinister Slush]

pretty much everyone agrees +1 is 6-4

I don't think I've seen anyone ever agree to this.
Especially since the brawl system has always been the normal ratios Rizen posted last page.

Outside of crazy pikachu mains back then using decimals when doing their own MU chart. PIKACHU VS META KNIGHT IS 52.5/47.5

Also only like two people in the brawl days thought MK vs Pikachu was even, ESAM and Tagxy.

 

[Kaladin]

You mean the smashwiki MU chart? It's literalky known for being inaccurate. It's just as effective going on event hubs.

Stop making a jackass out of yourself. Smash Games>Brawl>Competitive discussion>official matchup chat>use your ****ing brain and eyes in conjunction with one another to ****ing read.

It's not hard.

 

[Xxaz_v]

Whoops sorry guys looks like I can't make mistakes or have opinions here on elitism boards or I get my ass whooped.

 

[Kaladin]

Whoops sorry guys looks like I can't make mistakes or have opinions here on elitism boards or I get my *** whooped.

Well, (yes, I'm being hypocritical here) it's generally expected that, in the competitive discussion boards, you are familiar with the things you're talking about. You can make mistakes and have opinions, but not ones that conflict with objective data.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Stop making a ******* out of yourself. Smash Games>Brawl>Competitive discussion>official matchup chat>use your ****ing brain and eyes in conjunction with one another to ****ing read.

It's not hard.

jeez chill lmao

 

[Zelder]

Stop making a ******* out of yourself. Smash Games>Brawl>Competitive discussion>official matchup chat>use your ****ing brain and eyes in conjunction with one another to ****ing read.

It's not hard.

Woah, this post came through crystal clear in Donald Trump's voice. Eery.

 

[Kaladin]

Woah, this post came through crystal clear in Donald Trump's voice. Eery.

Tbh, that was what I was going for.

Really, though, I've never played nor watched brawl -- but it took me all of three minutes to fact-check. When people can't be bothered to make sure they're right, it really pisses me off.

 

[Ulevo]

Whoops sorry guys looks like I can't make mistakes or have opinions here on elitism boards or I get my *** whooped.

You will if you're condescending or disrespectful. If you are going to be arrogant, you better be sure you are right while doing so.

Either way, his forward smash is +1 on block and +5 on block if fully charged. Your only hope is to either attempt to punish it very precisely during the 18 frames of end lag and risk dying while doing so, or hit him during the 23 frames of wind up, which no good Meta Knight is going to allow you to do when positioning properly. If it had 0 KBG, it would still be incredibly safe, yet it has the potential to kill you at 70. The risk reward is heavily in Meta Knight's favor.