Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Locke 06]

Luigi's mobility on the ground is decent/good. This is a fact that seems forgotten when talking about Luigi. His foxtrot is very usable (something really only a handful of characters can say), and a 1.5 run speed is not condemning, the same runspeed as Ike and Wario and edging out Ness. This is very noticeable in matchups such as Mega/olimar/maybe Villager when you just want to run away from his quick and strong attacks but Luigi dashes behind you to grab you.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I still cannot believe people are saying Ryu's inputs are complicated. I get he has precise combos but doing dragon punches and QCs isn't hard at all LMAO.

Also Kirby/Sheik being even has been discussed several different times. I personally don't really know enough about the MU or either of those characters so I have no statement.

If they really think his inputs are hard they just need to go into training mode and practice his motions. Luckily in this game you can slow him down and look at your inputs.

 

[DblCrest]

Training mode is definitely the way to go. I needed some time to adjust to using true shoryukens and Shakunetsu Hadokens without tatsuing off the edge.
Though I think it's easier with the gamecube controller. I can understand some difficulty on the circle pad.

 

[Smog Frog]

huh? i always found it easier to do true inputs on the cpad. the cpad is basically on a flat piece of metal so i dont have to hold it like a pencil to get the input. of course this is probably preference...

 

[DblCrest]

Probably just me then... now this is embarrassing.

 

[TurboLink]

Probably just me then... now this is embarrassing.

Wii U or 3DS circle pad?

 

[Vechizen]

Ryu Matchup Spread: (as of 4th November 2015)

Now, I know that the MU spreads got pretty cancerous but I'd like to post one for my main, Ryu. Don't worry, I'll go in-depth into the key matchups that Ryu has. In-order to actually proceed, I'm going to outline the exact meaning of -1, -2, and -3.

I consider the +1 and -1 matchups to be the same as 60:40 and 40:60. This means that there is a SLIGHT advantage for either character but it is far from an unwinnable matchup. For example, Sheik has a slight advantage (or 60:40) over Fox. +2 and -2 matchups, therefore, are equivalent to having a 70:30 matchup and vice versa. This is when a character has a fairly large advantage over another to the point where it is very difficult for the weaker character to win. e.g.: Sheik has a 70:30 matchup advantage over Captain Falco. Finally, a -3 matchup spread is equal to 80:20 in any character's favour. This, in my eyes, means the matchup is almost unwinnable and there has to be a massive skill gap (ZeRo vs. Me) in order to beat that matchup. There are very few of these but the best one I can think of is King DededeezNuts having a -3 matchup against Zero Suit Samus.

Now, onto the matchup spread for my character.

I'll start off by saying that I'm excluding , , and because of the massive difference of usage between Customs On and Off and my relative lack of experience with the matchups. I would most like say they're all even to a slight +1 advantage for .

-3 or 20:80: -

I do not think that has any unwinnable matchups because of his ridiculous damage output, kill confirms and overall solidity of his moveset. Please feel free to disagree and respond.

-2 or 30:70: , .

Both Megaman and Pikachu, in my opinion, have a healthy advantage over Ryu due to a few reasons. Megaman is an amazing zoning character when played correctly (shoutouts to ScAtt) and has a multitude of multi-hit moves which messes heavily with one of 's best moves (Focus Attack). Furthermore, Megaman can keep Ryu out of close range quite well and prevent him from doing massive damage and ultimately getting that young TSRK. Pikachu (for me at least) has been quite a difficult matchup for similar reasons as Megaman. His strong, multi-hit aerials mess with Focus Attack and his height can also be a problem. It is definitely not an unwinnable matchup by any means and is borderline a -1 but my personal struggles have put Pikachu in the -2 category.

-1 or 40:60: , , , , and .

Each of these matchups are quite even but I believe all have a minor advantage over Ryu. Sonic's speed is absolutely bonkers (duh, Vechi) and his approaches are really strong against Ryu's Focus Attack shenanigans. Pacman, Olimar and to a certain extent Yoshu, keep Ryu out very well with zoning tools and the hydrant is a *****. Olimar's height again is a problem but we do have the ability to SHORYUKEN him into the sky so it's not that bad. Yoshi's eggs are specifically quite annoying but I think that as time goes on, the matchup will become easier and eventually even for Ryu. Dankey Kang does so much damage and the ding-dong combo scares the living daylights out of me. Again, though, Ryu does have the advantage of being able to combo Dankey Kang pretty hard so it's almost even. Ike's range is ridiculous when played right and he's kinda hard to kill (I know, Shoryuken is a thing) at times. Focus Attack does mess with Ike pretty hard because most of his best moves are 1-hit (F-Air, N-Air, D-Tilt).

0 or 50:50: , ,, , , , , , , , , , , / , /, , .

I feel like most of these matchups are self-explanatory but I'd like to go over a few.

Sheik is obviously the most important to discuss. There are multiple facets of both sides that cause this matchup, in my eyes, to be pretty even for both parties. First of all, Sheik only has one multi-hit move in U-Air (correct me if I'm wrong or something has slipped my mind) and it can't really be spammed much. This makes Ryu's Focus Attack VERY valuable to get out of combos and start his own. Furthermore, Ryu's damage output matches Sheik's (albeit in a different way), but has an easier time killing. Shoryuken is able to kill Sheik at 78% on Final Destination, meaning you can kill confirm with U-Tilt at 75%. Sheik's Needles are probably Ryu's biggest problem because of the multi-hit and high damage output, allowing certain Sheiks to simply lame you out of the game if you're not careful. This is why, in my opinion, the SH Shakunetsu approaches are pretty darn strong because then it forces Sheik to play a more aggressive game (which you want, in my opinion). Lastly, Ryu has a big advantage in that he can lock Sheik into a ****ton of U-Tilt strings because of her relatively large frame and her being a fastfaller and all.

Alright, moving on to the next matchup.

is an even matchup in my opinion but it does kinda border on Zero Suit Samus' advantage (I guess you can call it 52.5/47.5 or some bull**** like that). She has a few multi-hit moves (F-Air etc.) and an extremely quick Jab (Frame 1, I believe) to give her advantages along with the Cheese Combo (I know claim it to be the "Cheese Combo" from now and onwards) which scares the living **** outta me. Once again, like Sheik, Ryu can lock ZSS really hard into the U-Tilt strings because she's a massive fastfaller and is quite tall. Also, Shoryuken kills at 80% on Final Destination (therefore a 77% kill confirm with U-Tilt) which is pretty early. ZSS's speed can give Ryu problems but Focus Attack still has important uses with movement and blocking U-Air strings, making it less of a problem. All of these factors make the matchup even, in my opinion.

The last matchup I'll talk about is . Now, a lot of Ryu mains actually think that this is in Rosaluma's favour (including Emblem Lord) but I tend to disagree. Rosaluma has her obvious advantages but Focus Attack is still usable, Shoryuken kills at 74% (!!) which is absolutely insane and F-Air/Shakunetsu are both great tools at removing Luma. I think the key (as mentioned before) is that Shoryuken kills at such a low-percent that it makes this matchup close to even (even if it is that janky 52.5/47.5 advantage for ).

+1 or 60:40: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , .

With Ryu's damage output, Shoryuken, Focus Attack and combo game all being pretty darn awesome, I think that most of these matchups kinda explain themselves but please ask my opinion (and Emblem Lord's) specific matchups that I haven't explained or that you disagree with.

/ I put together because of their slight similarities and approach to both matchups. The fact that then have almost no multi-hit moves (except for that young D-Air and Up-B) makes Focus Attack ridiculously valuable against some of their stronger moves (such as Up-Smash and U-Air) and that is extremely important. Furthermore, Shoryuken kills quite early and Ryu can match Luigi's damage output decently well and outdamages Mario.

's speed is actually not that advantageous in this matchup (unlike Sonic) interestingly enough. His movement speed isn't as scary and again, the usage of Focus Attack is too strong.\

is an advantage (close to +2 in my opinion) because of U-Tilt. The fastfalling makes U-Tilt wreak havoc over Fox mains everywhere which is super great considering they're everywhere at regional and local level.

Lucario was a character I wanted to touch on because of Aura. If you let Lucario get to that stage, you're ****ed. Good thing that Shoryuken exists and is the major reason as to why Ryu has the advantage.

+2 or 70:30: , , , . +

, , and all have weak matchups with Ryu.

I have inputed the discussion on these particular matchups here so I do not have to re-write.

Descending Dragon (FADC tech) is amazing against Ganon specifically because he really can't react whilst on the ground. Descending Dragon is using Focus Attack from above, using it just before you hit the ground and dash-cancelling into more combos. Again, when I say that FA is amazing against certain characters, it doesn't mean you suddenly use it more than a usual game because it is already a staple because of its mixup potential. Bowser and Doc are advantageous for Ryu mostly due to the speed difference. Doc is just a slower-but-more-damaging Mario (at least he's considered that) and Ryu's gameplay already is advantageous over Mario in the first place. With Doc having counter-pick potential, it doesn't really help that he's "bad Mario" in this case. Bowser has a few strong options and dies around 90% on certain stages (Town and City etc etc.) and maxes out at 97% for death to the TSRK which is still insanely early for being such a heavy character. Ryu is more mobile and still pretty heavy himself which is important in countering Bowser's hard hitting strategy.

I definitely appreciate Ffamran's input on the Falco matchup but I'd like to just add that, from the current games that have been played that I have seen, Ryu has beaten the Falco even though the Falco is 100% the better player. An example is DMG_Hooded vs. LoF_Keitaro found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdR9oWQ7rt0

Now, the Ryu was not in a massive advantage throughout and did get combo'd fairly well by Keitaro, the threat of TSRK was too real and multiple times DMG_Hooded U-Tilt locked him for big damage. I want to continue to make it clear that I think Ryu has the advantage but it is not to the point where Falco ALWAYS loses. Falco obviously has traits which hurt Ryu's gameplay (multi-hit moves and combo game) but I still continue to think it's Ryu's advantage.

is definitely an interesting matchup but one that I would say Ryu still has a solid advantage against. The only MAJOR problem I can see with this matchup is a few of the multi-hitting moves that D3 has (such as F-Tilt and U-Air) but he still suffers the same problems as Bowser and Ganondorf. His massive body just allows you to combo with F-Air and U-Air way too much and Ryu's damage output is the ****. Smart play with grab combos can help D3's case but I still don'jt see how he can beat Ryu consistently...

+3 or 80:20: -

I don't actually believe outright wrecks any matchup.

That is my current matchup chart and will probably have to be updated in the future with an always evolving meta.

Please respond in kind and agree/disagree with whatever MU you want!

P.S. Can someone please tag Emblem Lord and see what he thinks? Thanks!



EDIT: Cleaned it up, added matchups for Ganon, Bowser, Falco and Doc.

 

[Djent]

Anti's tier list is really good. IMO should be higher and should be lower, but it's easily the best top player list. ESAM's list looks crazy even to a Pika optimist such as myself, and ZSS potentially being as low as 5th is egregious.

Ryu's motions are unlike any that Smash has required before (even if you played SF you didn't do them on analog). It's only natural for people to struggle in the short-term because of the need to build up a new muscle memory. But eventually, people will get used to them since they're still not "hard" in the grand scheme of things.

(for me at least) has been quite a difficult matchup for similar reasons as . His strong, multi-hit aerials mess with Focus Attack and his height can also be a problem. It is definitely not an unwinnable matchup by any means and is borderline a -1 but my personal struggles have put in the -2 category.

Pika wins IMO, but it's definitely not -2. Multi-hits are a problem (as is Ryu's lack of aerial control). It's not all bad for Ryu, though. Frame 2 light dtilt is great because Pika's only comparably fast ground move (jab) is bad. Ryu also gets higher reward-per-hit simply because of damage disparity (despite the fact that Pika combos him easily). And then there's the issue of closing out stocks, which obviously favors Ryu in this MU (unlike vs. MM) barring an early gimp (which Pika can pull off).

EDIT: Added Pika vs. Ryu stuff.

 

[DblCrest]

I've had issues with the circle pad when using Ryu because I really really don't want it to break.
Though now this has me wondering...are there characters that are actually easier or harder to play depending on which version you use?

 

[TurboLink]

I've had issues with the circle pad when using Ryu because I really really don't want it to break.
Though now this has me wondering...are there characters that are actually easier or harder to play depending on which version you use?

Same here. I think Megaman and Ryu are easier to play on the Wii U.

 

[Lavani]

I've had issues with the circle pad when using Ryu because I really really don't want it to break.
Though now this has me wondering...are there characters that are actually easier or harder to play depending on which version you use?

I'm not sure about easier/harder, but better/worse is definitely a thing; blast zone differences between 3DS and Wii U make a big difference. For Rosalina and Meta Knight in particular I find a lot of those uair(>upB) strings that result in early kills on Wii U don't kill on 3DS unless your opponent DIs horribly and/or you have a ton of rage. In contrast, Lucario gets larger blast zones to live to higher percents and abuse aura more easily.

I guess characters that would want tilt stick or B-stick would be harder on 3DS.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm not complaining about the Luigi nerfs. I'm pointing out that there are several characters whose gameplan is spam a grab followup first until it stops working. I seriously don't understand why ONLY luigi gets this hate even though most combos in this game come from grabs

Pretty much all characters in Smash history benefit from grabs in some way be it positional or setup-focused. Melee Fox for one could setup his Uair which did 18% back then. Be glad he doesn't have that Uair or can't easily set one up like Melee Fox or Smash 4 Falco. Now, here's the problem: risk.

Spamming grabs is one thing, but the risk Luigi gets from dash grabbing is low compared to other characters. Luigi's dash grab is frame 8-9, 2 active frames, 25 recovery frames, and 35 total frames, the same as his bro. Along with their standing frame 6-9, 20 recovery, 28 total and pivot frame 9-10, 22 recovery, 33 total grabs, that's low recoveries for grabs in general. The difference? Luigi stumbles forward unlike Mario who almost stops in place to grab. Now, add in how his old D-throw worked. Luigi's takes low risk, but massive rewards compared to the entire cast. In contrast, his brother takes about low risk, but average rewards. Want more numbers? Captain Falcon is another well-known dash grab user. His dash grab is frame 9-10, 2 active, 26 recovery, and 37 total. He lunges forward far, but remember that because he's a melee grabber, he can and will overshoot without a hitbox. Captain Falcon's throw options aren't exactly always high reward either. It's more volatile, especially if he gets an air dodge freebie. Even with his much higher ground speed, he lacks a projectile to try playing mid-range without relying on pure movement and he's much taller than Luigi. You also mentioned ZSS who despite having a long dash grab lunge, tether grab for more range, and very high reward, albeit sometimes escapable, ZSS's (dash) grab is kept in check by a high recovery. Her dash grab is frames 16-29?, 14 active, 41 recovery, and 71 total. 41 frames is a little over half a second. That's more than enough time for an average person to react to and punish. High risk and high reward.

Now, one more thing. You made a big deal over Nobie being happy Boss who so happens to be a Luigi player was doing interesting things with, incidentally, Luigi. You made something which was supposed to be positive, negative. He just made an observation while watching VGBC. There was nothing against or for Luigi; just a simple observation of what Boss was doing as Luigi. Nobody said anything about Luigi until you did which lead to (inevitably) a response about Luigi's noticeably over-tuned options pre-1.1.0. I end this with don't that and stop doing that. This goes for everyone.

Ryu Matchup Spread: (as of 4th November 2015)
+2 or 70:30: , , , .

All pretty darn self-explanatory and is a +2 because, sadly, he's a bad .

Yes, because Falco is clearly an inferior Fox just like how Roy is a superior Marth or how Link is an inferior Toon Link. That makes no sense when none of them play like each other. The only character that could count would be Lucina and technically Dark Pit if you're talking from a story-related reason. Also, "self-explanatory" isn't a good enough reason why some character gets (pretty much) ROFLstomped.

 

[Vechizen]

Pretty much all characters in Smash history benefit from grabs in some way be it positional or setup-focused. Melee Fox for one could setup his Uair which did 18% back then. Be glad he doesn't have that Uair or can't easily set one up like Melee Fox or Smash 4 Falco. Now, here's the problem: risk.

Spamming grabs is one thing, but the risk Luigi gets from dash grabbing is low compared to other characters. Luigi's dash grab is frame 8-9, 2 active frames, 25 recovery frames, and 35 total frames, the same as his bro. Along with their standing frame 6-9, 20 recovery, 28 total and pivot frame 9-10, 22 recovery, 33 total grabs, that's low recoveries for grabs in general. The difference? Luigi stumbles forward unlike Mario who almost stops in place to grab. Now, add in how his old D-throw worked. Luigi's takes low risk, but massive rewards compared to the entire cast. In contrast, his brother takes about low risk, but average rewards. Want more numbers? Captain Falcon is another well-known dash grab user. His dash grab is frame 9-10, 2 active, 26 recovery, and 37 total. He lunges forward far, but remember that because he's a melee grabber, he can and will overshoot without a hitbox. Captain Falcon's throw options aren't exactly always high reward either. It's more volatile, especially if he gets an air dodge freebie. Even with his much higher ground speed, he lacks a projectile to try playing mid-range without relying on pure movement and he's much taller than Luigi. You also mentioned ZSS who despite having a long dash grab lunge, tether grab for more range, and very high reward, albeit sometimes escapable, ZSS's (dash) grab is kept in check by a high recovery. Her dash grab is frames 16-29?, 14 active, 41 recovery, and 71 total. 41 frames is a little over half a second. That's more than enough time for an average person to react to and punish. High risk and high reward.

Now, one more thing. You made a big deal over Nobie being happy Boss who so happens to be a Luigi player was doing interesting things with, incidentally, Luigi. You made something which was supposed to be positive, negative. He just made an observation while watching VGBC. There was nothing against or for Luigi; just a simple observation of what Boss was doing as Luigi. Nobody said anything about Luigi until you did which lead to (inevitably) a response about Luigi's noticeably over-tuned options pre-1.1.0. I end this with don't that and stop doing that. This goes for everyone.


Yes, because Falco is clearly an inferior Fox just like how Roy is a superior Marth or how Link is an inferior Toon Link. That makes no sense when none of them play like each other. The only character that could count would be Lucina and technically Dark Pit if you're talking from a story-related reason. Also, "self-explanatory" isn't a good enough reason why some character gets (pretty much) ROFLstomped.

Ok, that's fair enough. Falco is inferior to Fox, that's just the way it is. He gets absolutely destroyed (like Fox) with U-Tilt strings but doesn't have the damage output or weight to keep up with Ryu.

The other 3 are all heavies who get combo'd hard and don't have the tools to keep up with Ryu's moveset.

Focus Attack destroys all 3 of the other characters

 

[Ffamran]

Ok, that's fair enough. Falco is inferior to Fox, that's just the way it is. He gets absolutely destroyed (like Fox) with U-Tilt strings but doesn't have the damage output or weight to keep up with Ryu.

The other 3 are all heavies who get combo'd hard and don't have the tools to keep up with Ryu's moveset.

Focus Attack destroys all 3 of the other characters

Still illogical. Does Falco play rushdown? With that mobility? I hope not. Does Falco try for more ground-focused kills? Nope, he doesn't have much to setup a ground kill and Side Smash doesn't true combo from anything while his Up Smash is purely for damage and anti-airing. Does Fox edgeguard like Falco? Nope, Fox lacks high, but not too high knockback on his lingering aerials to gimp, his double jump doesn't go as high as his Falco's, and while Fire Fox travels far, Fox will be in a much more severe disadvantage if he's left that low where any hit could gimp him not to mention it's heavily telegraphed for him to rocket up that far down. Does Fox have safe multi-hits to make Ryu question using Focus Attacks? He has like 2 outside of a full jab combo, Fair and Dair. Uair can work, but when Ryu's on the ground? Good luck. Fair's not going to do much if he can't use it on the ground and Dair's going to get predictable. Falco on the other hand has Utilt, Up Smash, Nair, Fair, and jab. Does Fox space or plays footsies like Falco? Does Falco combo like Fox? Does Fox have the same throw options/setups as Falco? I could go on and on. Like I said, outside of Lucina, no character is just a strictly inferior character, especially if they play different. You can't even say Mario is a superior Dr. Mario when they're basically Melee clones who, unlike the Pits and Lucina and Marth, play differently and actually function differently than DP has an altered Neutral Special and a different Side Special or Lucina's gimmick of not having Marth's gimmick of tippers.

Also, as for damage output. When a character's average damage per hit is around ~10% and lowest damage outside of late hits, failed connections of multi-hits, incomplete jabs, and Specials is 9% and with late hits is 6%, that's still pretty freaking good when Fox's average is ~9% with lowest damage being 6% without everything else and 4% with late hits. Both are capable of comboing, but in the own ways just like everyone else. That pretty much means Falco has damage output. If he didn't he wouldn't be just an inferior Fox, he'd be the worst character in the game by a long-shot. This hasn't been updated since May, but it's still a good reference.

Frame data (hitbox coming out) averages for each character from fastest to slowest. Normals only since specials are usually meant for different things than instantly hitting the opponent. All variations of grab are taken into account.

Spoiler: Damage output

1. Ganondorf: 15.111
2. Bowser: 13.889
3. King Dedede: 12.444
4. Captain Falcon 11.944
5. Link: 11.833
6. Donkey Kong: 11.667
6. Rosalina: 11.667 (with Luma)
6. Zelda: 11.667
9. Ike: 11.389
10. Charizard: 11.111
11. Shulk: 10.889 (no arts)
12. Mewtwo: 10.833
12. Samus: 10.833
14. Mr. Game & Watch: 10.722
15. Robin: 10.611
16. Bowser Jr.: 10.556
16. Peach: 10.556
18. Olimar: 10.389 (all purple)
19. Dr. Mario: 10.333
19. Jigglypuff: 10.333
19. Ness: 10.333
22. Marth: 10.278 (all tippers)
22. Toon Link: 10.278
24. Wario: 10.222
25. Falco: 10.111
25. Duck Hunt Duo: 10.111
27. Yoshi: 10
28. WFT: 9.944 (no boost)
29. Mii Brawler: 9.889
30. Luigi: 9.833
30. Mega Man: 9.833
32. Pit: 9.778
32. Dark Pit: 9.778
34. Lucario: 9.667
35. Palutena: 9.5
35. Villager: 9.5
37. Fox: 9.333
37. Mii Swordfighter: 9.333
39. Kirby: 9.278
40. Diddy Kong: 9.222
40. Pacman: 9.222
42. ROB: 9
43. Little Mac: 8.944 (10.615 without aerials)
43. Mario: 8.944
45. Sonic: 8.778
45. ZSS: 8.778
47. Mii Gunner: 8.667
48. Greninja: 8.389
48. Lucina: 8.389
50. Pikachu: 8.333
51. Meta Knight: 7.889
52. Sheik: 7.444

Also, at least 50% of the cast can't keep up with Ryu's weight since he's the 14th heaviest character. Pointing that out is kind of useless when several top/high tier characters are lightweights. Only Ryu, Ike, Mario, Sonic, Captain Falcon, and Diddy are middleweights and above. Sheik, Fox, Pikachu, Meta Knight, ZSS, and Rosalina are all lightweights.

Last, but not least, Focus Attack is at a minimum, frame 31 and at a maximum, frame 70. It can be dash canceled starting at frame 26 and while it has super armor, spamming that is going to lead to Ryu getting his head cracked open. A move that slow does not destroy anyone no matter how good of a move it is.

 

[Vechizen]

So

Still illogical. Does Falco play rushdown? With that mobility? I hope not. Does Falco try for more ground-focused kills? Nope, he doesn't have much to setup a ground kill and Side Smash doesn't true combo from anything while his Up Smash is purely for damage and anti-airing. Does Fox edgeguard like Falco? Nope, Fox lacks high, but not too high knockback on his lingering aerials to gimp, his double jump doesn't go as high as his Falco's, and while Fire Fox travels far, Fox will be in a much more severe disadvantage if he's left that low where any hit could gimp him not to mention it's heavily telegraphed for him to rocket up that far down. Does Fox have safe multi-hits to make Ryu question using Focus Attacks? He has like 2 outside of a full jab combo, Fair and Dair. Uair can work, but when Ryu's on the ground? Good luck. Fair's not going to do much if he can't use it on the ground and Dair's going to get predictable. Falco on the other hand has Utilt, Up Smash, Nair, Fair, and jab. Does Fox space or plays footsies like Falco? Does Falco combo like Fox? Does Fox have the same throw options/setups as Falco? I could go on and on. Like I said, outside of Lucina, no character is just a strictly inferior character, especially if they play different. You can't even say Mario is a superior Dr. Mario when they're basically Melee clones who, unlike the Pits and Lucina and Marth, play differently and actually function differently than DP has an altered Neutral Special and a different Side Special or that Lucina is a gimmick of not having Marth's gimmick of tippers.

Also, as for damage output. When a character's average damage per hit is around ~10% and lowest damage outside of late hits, failed connections of multi-hits, incomplete jabs, and Specials is 9% and with late hits is 6%, that's still pretty freaking good when Fox's average is ~9% with lowest damage being 6% without everything else and 4% with late hits. Both are capable of comboing, but in the own ways just like everyone else. That pretty much means Falco has damage output. If he didn't he wouldn't be just an inferior Fox, he'd be the worst character in the game by a long-shot. This hasn't been updated since May, but it's still a good reference.


Also, at least 50% of the cast can't keep up with Ryu's weight since he's the 14th heaviest character. Pointing that out is kind of useless when several top/high tier characters are lightweights. Only Ryu, Ike, Mario, Sonic, Captain Falcon, and Diddy are middleweights and above. Sheik, Fox, Pikachu, Meta Knight, ZSS, and Rosalina are all lightweights.

Last, but not least, Focus Attack is at a minimum, frame 31 and at a maximum, frame 70. It can be dash canceled starting at frame 26 and while it has super armor, spamming that is going to lead to Ryu getting his head cracked open. A move that slow does not destroy anyone no matter how good of a move it is.

I see your point but I don't see the overall argument. I understand that Foc and Falco are dofferent characters but I was making the similarity because they are both massive fastfallers and that is key for Ryu. You haven't actually said what part of the MU Chart you didagree with.

What's the point of arguing with me over small phrases that I've said? Why not discuss the matchups specifically?

I'd like to restate my point just to clarify. I totally understand where you're coming from and where my arguments are flawed.

EDIT: I said Focus Attack was key in a lot of matchups because it's a key part of Ryu's gameplay. I NEVER said that it should be spammed.

 

[FullMoon]

Ryu Matchup Spread: (as of 4th November 2015)

Now, I know that the MU spreads got pretty cancerous but I'd like to post one for my main, Ryu. Don't worry, I'll go in-depth into the key matchups that Ryu has. In-order to actually proceed, I'm going to outline the exact meaning of -1, -2, and -3.

I consider the +1 and -1 matchups to be the same as 60:40 and 40:60. This means that there is a SLIGHT advantage for either character but it is far from an unwinnable matchup. For example, has a slight advantage (or 60:40) over . +2 and -2 matchups, therefore, are equivalent to having a 70:30 matchup and vice versa. This is when a character has a fairly large advantage over another to the point where it is very difficult for the weaker character to win. e.g.: has a 70:30 matchup advantage over . Finally, a -3 matchup spread is equal to 80:20 in any character's favour. This, in my eyes, means the matchup is almost unwinnable and there has to be a massive skill gap (ZeRo vs. Me) in order to beat that matchup. There are very few of these but the best one I can think of is having a -3 matchup against .

Now, onto the matchup spread for my character.

I'll start off by saying that I'm excluding , , and because of the massive difference of usage between Customs On and Off and my relative lack of experience with the matchups. I would most like say they're all even to a slight +1 advantage for .

-3 or 20:80: -

I do not think that has any unwinnable matchups because of his ridiculous damage output, kill confirms and overall solidity of his moveset. Please feel free to disagree and respond.

-2 or 30:70: , .

Both and , in my opinion, have a healthy advantage over due to a few reasons. is an amazing zoning character when played correctly (shoutouts to ScAtt) and has a multitude of multi-hit moves which messes heavily with one of 's best moves (Focus Attack). Furthermore, can keep out of close range quite well and prevent from doing massive damage and ultimately getting that young SHORYUKEN. (for me at least) has been quite a difficult matchup for similar reasons as . His strong, multi-hit aerials mess with Focus Attack and his height can also be a problem. It is definitely not an unwinnable matchup by any means and is borderline a -1 but my personal struggles have put in the -2 category.

-1 or 40:60: , , , , and .

Each of these matchups are quite even but I believe all have a minor advantage over . Sonic's speed is absolutely bonkers (duh, Vechi) and his approaches are really strong against 's Focus Attack shenanigans. , and to a certain extent , keep out very well with zoning tools and the hydrant is a *****. 's height again is a problem but we do have the ability to SHORYUKEN him into the sky so it's not that bad. 's eggs are specifically quite annoying but I think that as time goes on, the matchup will become easier and eventually even for . does so much damage and the ding-dong combo scares the living daylights out of me. Again, though, does have the advantage of being able to combo pretty hard so it's almost even. 's range is ridiculous when played right and he's kinda hard to kill (I know, Shoryuken is a thing) at times. Focus Attack does mess with pretty hard because most of his best moves are 1-hit (F-Air, N-Air, D-Tilt).

0 or 50:50: , ,, , , , , , , , , , , / , /, , .

I feel like most of these matchups are self-explanatory but I'd like to go over a few.

is obviously the most important to discuss. There are multiple facets of both sides that cause this matchup, in my eyes, to be pretty even for both parties. First of all, only has one multi-hit move in U-Air (correct me if I'm wrong or something has slipped my mind) and it can't really be spammed much. This makes 's Focus Attack VERY valuable to get out of combos and start his own. Furthermore, 's damage output matches 's (albeit in a different way), but has an easier time killing. Shoryuken is able to kill at 78% on Final Destination, meaning you can kill confirm with U-Tilt at 75%. 's Needles are probably 's biggest problem because of the multi-hit and high damage output, allowing certain s to simply lame you out of the game if you're not careful. This is why, in my opinion, the SH Shakunetsu approaches are pretty darn strong because then it forces to play a more aggressive game (which you want, in my opinion). Lastly, has a big advantage in that he can lock into a ****ton of U-Tilt strings because of her relatively large frame and her being a fastfaller and all.

Alright, moving on to the next matchup.

is an even matchup in my opinion but it does kinda border on 's advantage (I guess you can call it 52.5/47.5 or some bull**** like that). She has a few multi-hit moves (F-Air etc.) and an extremely quick Jab (Frame 1, I believe) to give her advantages along with the Cheese Combo (I know claim it to be the "Cheese Combo" from now and onwards) which scares the living **** outta me. Once again, like , can lock really hard into the U-Tilt strings because she's a massive fastfaller and is quite tall. Also, Shoryuken kills at 80% on Final Destination (therefore a 77% kill confirm with U-Tilt) which is pretty early. 's speed can give problems but Focus Attack still has important uses with movement and blocking U-Air strings, making it less of a problem. All of these factors make the matchup even, in my opinion.

The last matchup I'll talk about is . Now, a lot of mains actually think that this is in 's favour (including Emblem Lord) but I tend to disagree. has her obvious advantages but Focus Attack is still usable, Shoryuken kills at 74% (!!) which is absolutely insane and F-Air/Shakunetsu are both great tools at removing Luma. I think the key (as mentioned before) is that Shoryuken kills at such a low-percent that it makes this matchup close to even (even if it is that janky 52.5/47.5 advantage for ).

+1 or 60:40: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , .

With 's damage output, Shoryuken, Focus Attack and combo game all being pretty darn awesome, I think that most of these matchup kinda explain themselves but please ask my opinion (and Emblem Lord's) specific matchups that I haven't explained or that you disagree with.

/ I put together because of their slight similarities and approach to both matchups. The fact that then have almost no multi-hit moves (except for that young D-Air and Up-B) makes Focus Attack ridiculously valuable against some of their stronger moves (such as Up-Smash and U-Air) and that is extremely important. Furthermore, Shoryuken kills quite early and can match 's damage output decently well and outdamages .

's speed is actually not that advantageous in this matchup (unlike Sonic) interestingly enough. His movement speed isn't as scary and again, the usage of Focus Attack is too strong.\

is an advantage (close to +2 in my opinion) because of U-Tilt. The fastfalling makes U-Tilt wreak havoc over mains everywhere which is super great considering they're everywhere at regional and local level.

was a character I wanted to touch on because of Aura. If you let get to that stage, you're ****ed. Good thing that Shoryuken exists and is the major reason as to why has the advantage.

+2 or 70:30: , , , .

All pretty darn self-explanatory and is a +2 because, sadly, he's a bad .

+3 or 80:20: -

I don't actually believe outright wrecks any matchup.

That is my current matchup chart and will probably have to be updated in the future with an always evolving meta.

Please respond in kind and agree/disagree with whatever MU you want!

P.S. Can someone please tag Emblem Lord and see what he thinks? Thanks!

Try to cut down on the icon spam because good lord this post looks really messy.

 

[Ffamran]

So I see your point but I don't see the overall argument. I understand that Foc and Falco are dofferent characters but I was making the similarity because they are both massive fastfallers and that is key for Ryu. You haven't actually said what part of the MU Chart you didagree with.

What's the point of arguing with me over small phrases that I've said? Why not discuss the matchups specifically?

I'd like to restate my point just to clarify. I totally understand where you're coming from and where my arguments are flawed.

EDIT: I said Focus Attack was key in a lot of matchups because it's a key part of Ryu's gameplay. I NEVER said that it should be spammed.

The overall argument is to never say any character is an inferior/superior character. The other part is that for the +2 section of Ryu, none of them have any valid statements with "self-explanatory" meaning nothing, the inferior character being illogical and undermining any merit a character labeled that has, and then while you gave an explanation as to why Bowser and Ganondorf both being combo food... that was pretty much it. There was nothing else specific like they don't "have the tools to keep up with Ryu" means nothing. What tools don't they have? For example, Bowser's jab, tilts, and Uair all make parts of him partially invincible meaning with his range, he could challenge Ryu's vincible hits or how Ganondorf's fairly fast when it comes to hitting - comes with sharing frame data, especially aerials, with Captain Falcon. Also, Dr. Mario is not a heavyweight; he's the same weight as Mario who is at most above-average weight.

Heavyweights or "juggernauts" or fatties are reserved for large hurtbox, slow-moving and/or hitting fighters such as Bowser, Charizard, Ganondorf, and Triple D. Heavyweights as a weight class would include them and characters like Ike, Ryu, Link, Samus, and Yoshi, but none of them fit the criteria for juggernauts, fatties, whales, or elephants.

And finally, spamming wasn't the right word, but while FC and FCDC are integral to Ryu's gameplay, it cannot "destroy" or shut down anyone. FC is not on the level that is Melee Shines, Melee/Brawl Falco Blaster, Brawl Meta Knight, or even Smash 4 Sheik Needles and Smash 4 pre-1.1.0 Fox jab. It's not on a level where it can limit a character's options so badly they cannot do anything, but struggle when FC is not instantaneous or ranged.

 

[TTTTTsd]

To simplify what Ffamran is saying....

Explain the advantageous MUs better and don't level it down to one sentence when you give descriptions of the other MUs. You described his even and minor loss MUs pretty well and consistently, but you kind of one-sentenced these ones which doesn't lead to good headway discussion when you factor in that some people might wanna talk about why these MUs are bad for said character (or good for Ryu in more specific terms).

 

[ARGHETH]

+1 or 60:40:

Can you explain this one, please? Because according to Dath, Trela said that Ryu has trouble with Robin.

As for beating Ryu, Robin just has all the right tools to fight him: big sword + enough aerial mobility + projectiles. Trela even agreed that Ryu has trouble with Robin. It's probably not any worse than 45:55 for Ryu though.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja doesn't lose to Ness, especially not with the shield changes.

He might lose to Diddy, but there's not much footage of the MU being played between players of equal skill (you get Some losing to Nietono and istudying beating most European Diddys). It's winnable for both sides.

I'd argue against that since ease of use is very subjective. Exemple: I cannot understand how to use Villager at all, Greninja is fairly straightforward, and Fox is disgustingly easy to use. That's all on me. Now, what about the millions of other players? At the same time, say Captain Falcon is fairly simple and can dominate pools to about winners round 3, but after that, everything falls apart. The level of aggression and pressure you need to exert with a hyper-aggressive play style and the risks you need to take and know when to take like Fatality does is not a simple feat. It's like learning to control a drag racer on a circuit and not a straight line. Similarly, learning to play a walking arsenal like Link, Toon Link, Villager, and Mega Man is much more difficult than cheesing with lag and lesser skilled players. At the same time, it's all up to the player e.g. for some, hyper-aggression is pure instinct and natural reflexes, but for others, it's a learned play style.

None of your opinions on how easy those characters are to use are groundbreaking. In fact I'd say they're all the most common opinion for their respective characters.

Like with anything, ease of use comes down to opinion. But there's no denying that some characters' attacks and playstyles are inherently simpler, and thus easier to use, than others. Would anyone argue that prepatch Luigi was hard to use?

This is not the same as saying those characters don't take skill. Every character of course takes skill. But knowing things like "when to take risks" applies to every character and doesn't serve to make Falcon any more complicated.

None of this actually matters but meh.

 

[bc1910]

Accidental double post due to phone lag...

 

[Jehtt]

Greninja doesn't lose to Ness, especially not with the shield changes...

This isn't addressed at anybody in particular, but I really wish people would stop making claims in the format of "X doesn't lose to Y" or "X beats Y" and then not going into any detail about why that is. Saying "X beats Y because Y is particularly good at exploiting this weakness of X" is much, much, MUCH more valuable than just "X beats Y." This is especially true when it comes to poorly understood characters like Greninja or Robin.

 

[TriTails]

I'm far from thinking Luigi is a bottom tier trash in this game, but I don't believe he is Top 15. Rosalina and Sheik are outright dumb MUs. Furthermore, I've seen a lot of people say ZSS is also a stupid MU for Luigi and I can see why. Spacing Z-airs and N-airs goes far. Take note Boss also thinks the MU is ***.

Then you have our already hard MUs getting a hit, worsening them. Pac, Mega, LITTLE MAC for example.

And then Greninja. A MU I seriously despise. Not because on how much Greninja wins, but on how the wound continously worsens. Greninja already beat Luigi in 1.0.4, after the Greninja nerfs and Luigi buffs. And then balance patches came out one after another, and this MU got dumber and dumber. Might be breaching 65:35 here, if not worse. Shurikens vs Luigi is just lol.

We also go even with the worst characters in the game (Zelda and Samus) pre patch. Idk how the MUs look now but I'm 100% they didn't get better. Especially with the added safety on Samus' Z-air.

We probably still beat Fox solidly. His disadvantage is still utter garbage vs our combos. Blaster doesn't work either. He kinda has to fish for kill moves and while we also need to, Fox's weight combined with our lagless smashes mold our perspective to be more bearable. His sucky edgeguards also still a big plus on our side (Unless he pulls out a janky F-air spike + footstool, which is unreliable anyways)

Mario is still a winning MU. Our trades with him is still amazing and he doesn't have much kill confirms to begin with. We both fish for smashes to kill but everything else, we do better. Edgeguards, damage racking. One may even say Mario has trouble breaking out of our combos now because our shenanigans are much less teleghraphed.

Aside from that, we probably lose to Ness because the lack of kill confirms actually hits pretty hard because rage B-throw (We could actually contest his kill power and moves pre patch but as you can see, this is no longer the case). Sonic... I'm fidgety whenether this MU is that much worse (A campy Sonic may do a lot better than agressive ones, just sayin'). I never get how do we beat Pika in the first place.

I'll write more later when I'm not less than a half an hour left to go to my course.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I love how We are still letting ourselves be derailed by one guy and his quest for proving that Luigi did not deserve his well earned nerfs. Made sense the first time, since he was nerfed just a day before or so.
Seriously if someone in this thread is arguing with the exact same logic they've been using for a while it's best if you just admit that there's no use in trying to get them to understand

I'd take Luigi talk all day over tier list talk. I think that's what killed the last thread.

 

[Minordeth]

On Ryu and his alleged +2's:

Falco - I don't think this is a runaway success for Ryu. Falco loves to box, and he has absurd, multihit strings. I don't think Ryu can take advantage of Falco's broken jab-linking either, as his nair is frame 4 -although I'm sure Ffamran knows for sure. Falco's projectile is slightly faster and has less FAF than hadoken as well, which bogs down Ryu's traps a bit. Now, I'm not saying Falco wins, but I don't think it's a +2.

Ganon - Ganon has range like a swordie and his aerials hit as quick as Falcon. Focus Attack should be used with extra care because while Ganon has no multihit moves (outside of newly buffed Nair), Flame Choke in both its forms defeat it if read. It's true that Ganon can get Utilt mangled, but he can keep Ryu out fairly given that Ryu's longest ranged attacks are all aerial, which happens to not be a bad deal for Ganon. I think Ganon loses, but I'm not sure it's 7:3 bad.

Bowser - A character with a "get off me" OoS like Whirling Fortress is not going to be super fun to get in on. Yeah, he is combo food in the air, but he also has a command grab and dies the latest to TSRK. Again, he loses, and maybe a Bowser main can shed some light here, but 7:3 is pretty bad, and I'm not seeing convincing evidence as to why he gets murdered that badly.

Doc - I'm less versed in Doc, but so are most people. I don't see why he is at such a massive disadvantage though, especially with strings into kills, and hilarious power.

EDIT: Otherwise that MU spread was a pretty good post.

 

[bc1910]

I didn't make a blanket "X beats Y" statement. I mentioned the shield changes. I don't have time to go into more detail because again, mobile.

 

[Jaxas]

I don't think Ryu can take advantage of Falco's broken jab-linking either, as his nair is frame 4 -although I'm sure Ffamran knows for sure.

I believe Ryu can (obviously depending on spacing) just TSRK out of the Jab, since the invincibility starts on F1. Someone correct me if the invincibility is ground-only or something, though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People overrate Mario so much ... it's almost getting tragicomic.

> lose to Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Rosalina, Ryu
> does not beat any of the notable characters except Pikachu [who likely isn't *that* notable]
> still somehow make it to top 5 on every tier list ever

Ryu on the other hand is still underrated. Top 5 character imo. If all the tier lists that have Mario in top 5 and Ryu barely in top 10 switched their position then it'd make a lot more sense. Mario is like 8th at best. Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Ryu, Diddy, Sonic and Fox are all better characters than Mario for sure.

[...]you get Some losing to Nietono and istudying beating most European Diddys

Who are these European Diddy players that iStudy supposedly beats?

 

[Vechizen]

On Ryu and his alleged +2's:

Falco - I don't think this is a runaway success for Ryu. Falco loves to box, and he has absurd, multihit strings. I don't think Ryu can take advantage of Falco's broken jab-linking either, as his nair is frame 4 -although I'm sure Ffamran knows for sure. Falco's projectile is slightly faster and has less FAF than hadoken as well, which bogs down Ryu's traps a bit. Now, I'm not saying Falco wins, but I don't think it's a +2.

Ganon - Ganon has range like a swordie and his aerials hit as quick as Falcon. Focus Attack should be used with extra care because while Ganon has no multihit moves (outside of newly buffed Nair), Flame Choke in both its forms defeat it if read. It's true that Ganon can get Utilt mangled, but he can keep Ryu out fairly given that Ryu's longest ranged attacks are all aerial, which happens to not be a bad deal for Ganon. I think Ganon loses, but I'm not sure it's 7:3 bad.

Bowser - A character with a "get off me" OoS like Whirling Fortress is not going to be super fun to get in on. Yeah, he is combo food in the air, but he also has a command grab and dies the latest to TSRK. Again, he loses, and maybe a Bowser main can shed some light here, but 7:3 is pretty bad, and I'm not seeing convincing evidence as to why he gets murdered that badly.

Doc - I'm less versed in Doc, but so are most people. I don't see why he is at such a massive disadvantage though, especially with strings into kills, and hilarious power.

EDIT: Otherwise that MU spread was a pretty good post.

Appreciate the response.

Just to confirm with everyone who didn't read the post properly, I considered the +2 portion a matchup where Ryu won on a consistent basis but was not dominant at all. For example, a lot of people use the 55:45 ratio where that, in my eyes, is closer to 60:40. Therefore, the 70:30 matchup is more like 60:40 for people who use decimals etc. etc.

This whole idea of matchup ratios is completely different depending on the person, hence why I included at the top of my post.

TSRK kill confirms from Jab 1, Soft U-Tilt, Soft D-Tilt and D-Air.

Descending Dragon (FADC tech) is amazing against Ganon specifically because he really can't react whilst on the ground. Descending Dragon is using Focus Attack from above, using it just before you hit the ground and dash-cancelling into more combos. Again, when I say that FA is amazing against certain characters, it doesn't mean you suddenly use it more than a usual game because it is already a staple because of its mixup potential. Bowser and Doc are advantageous for Ryu mostly due to the speed difference. Doc is just a slower-but-more-damaging Mario (at least he's considered that) and Ryu's gameplay already is advantageous over Mario in the first place. With Doc having counter-pick potential, it doesn't really help that he's "bad Mario" in this case. Bowser has a few strong options and dies around 90% on certain stages (Town and City etc etc.) and maxes out at 97% for death to the TSRK which is still insanely early for being such a heavy character. Ryu is more mobile and still pretty heavy himself which is important in countering Bowser's hard hitting strategy.

I definitely appreciate Ffamran's input on the Falco matchup but I'd like to just add that, from the current games that have been played that I have seen, Ryu has beaten the Falco even though the Falco is 100% the better player. An example is DMG_Hooded vs. LoF_Keitaro found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdR9oWQ7rt0

Now, the Ryu was not in a massive advantage throughout and did get combo'd fairly well by Keitaro, the threat of TSRK was too real and multiple times DMG_Hooded U-Tilt locked him for big damage. I want to continue to make it clear that I think Ryu has the advantage but it is not to the point where Falco ALWAYS loses. Falco obviously has traits which hurt Ryu's gameplay (multi-hit moves and combo game) but I still continue to think it's Ryu's advantage.

 

[Rizen]

Can we all agree to use the Brawl MU system of: 0 even, +/-1 slight advantage/disadvantage, +/-2 solid advantage/disadvantage, +/-3 Strong advantage/disadvantage or counter-pick, +/-4 realistically unlosable/unwinnable.

 

[Vechizen]

Can we all agree to use the Brawl MU system of: 0 even, +/-1 slight advantage/disadvantage, +/-2 solid advantage/disadvantage, +/-3 Strong advantage/disadvantage or counter-pick, +/-4 realistically unlosable/unwinnable.

I quite like that system, actually.

I vote for!

 

[Routa]

So basically +2 = Soft Counter and +3 = Counter... Or?

 

[Vechizen]

So basically +2 = Soft Counter and +3 = Counter... Or?

I personally don't think +4 is really needed because +3 (in my opinion) is basically a hard counter.

+2 can be described as a soft counter but I would say it specifically means that one character, has a really strong matchup against another. I like to use the example of having a +2 advantage over .

+3 is like against where the matchup is basically unwinnable.

 

[Smog Frog]

except isnt unwinnable. sure, he gets bodied offstage, but thats true vs like any part of the cast with edgeguarding capabilities. its closer to -1 since the only real way that she bodies him is offstage for no risk(something that isnt true for most of the cast)

am i just misunderstanding something?

 

[Rashyboy05]

except isnt unwinnable. sure, he gets bodied offstage, but thats true vs like any part of the cast with edgeguarding capabilities. its closer to -1 since the only real way that she bodies him is offstage for no risk(something that isnt true for most of the cast)

am i just misunderstanding something?

I think its because of how Dabuz tends to **** Ness during tournaments like in EVO during his match against FOW and in CEO vs. Shaky.

 

[Smog Frog]

dabuz blames their losses on being psyched out. he doesn't think it's that bad either.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well +3 is generally unwinnable at top level, it's just +4 is more suited to matchups with braindead strategies that anyone can apply.

ICs vs Ganon is +4 in Brawl because Ganon can't get past desync'd blizzard. Ganon can't do anything vs an ICs who applies that. Similarly D3 vs Dk is +4 in Brawl because DK can't avoid getting grabbed and he gets infinited every time.

Whereas something like ZSS vs Bowser in this game is more like +3. ZSS just destroys bowser, zones him out, combo's him to death stupidly early, is hard for him to pressure, etc. It's not literally unwinnable though, Bowser doesn't just have no answers.
I'm not sure any matchup in this game actually is +4, except for maybe stage specific situations like Sheik vs Little mac on duck hunt or something.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

V Vechizen
I think you left out Ryu's matchup with Dedede.

 

[Wintropy]

I've had issues with the circle pad when using Ryu because I really really don't want it to break.
Though now this has me wondering...are there characters that are actually easier or harder to play depending on which version you use?

Mechanically, no. Unless I didn't get the memo on something big, each version is technically the same. Certain players just might have difficulty using one control scheme or the other. Screen size, graphical and sound quality, differences in stages and familiarity with one platform over the other might be worth noting too, but it's subjective.

I don't think Ryu is necessarily more "difficult" to play than other characters, but you do have to get used to the SF inputs. I don't doubt a pedigree in traditional fighters helps, but it's worth considering that even pro players (Trela etc) can have difficulty getting the precise inputs when under pressure - it's both a different kind of input to what Smash was founded on and a very different game to traditional fighters, with expanded movement options and a greater emphasis on input-sensitive commands. The skills might be transferable, but to what extent, I don't know.

That said, none of this really matters if you want to be a top Ryu. You understand how to play the character, inputs and everything considered, in the same way that you understand how to connect ZSS's grab or d-throw -> f-air with Falcon.

 

[meleebrawler]

This isn't addressed at anybody in particular, but I really wish people would stop making claims in the format of "X doesn't lose to Y" or "X beats Y" and then not going into any detail about why that is. Saying "X beats Y because Y is particularly good at exploiting this weakness of X" is much, much, MUCH more valuable than just "X beats Y." This is especially true when it comes to poorly understood characters like Greninja or Robin.

And Mewtwo. Many times when people provide matchup ratios against him it feels like they just go "lol he gets juggled" or "lol dies early" and don't bother looking much further than that.