VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Rosedemon]

see that analogy doesn't work because DotA was a custom map of WC3, LoL is a game in its own right. y'all don't know nutin if ur saying my analogy doesn't work. I've played both and it's honestly like going from melee to brawl in terms of fun at least.

btw DotA 2 had a $2,000,000 tournament before it was released.

You used DotA 2 as your focal point, not DotA and even then I would liken DotA to 64 if we're basing this off of popularity and current financial backing.

And thats nice that DotA 2 had a 2mil tournament before it was released, but if we continue to live in the past we'll never get anywhere with this.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

DotA 2 still hasn't been "released".

The fact that you can get something outside of a particular game and have it give you an advantage before the game even starts turns me off. If I remember correctly, in LoL there is one that allows you to restore mana with a cooldown.

While I love LoL's character designs, lots of the mechanics are dumbed down. No pathing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZa6hVvmFM0), no denies, dumbed down mana management (removes a bunch of strats based around managing resources better).

But yeah, more people play LoL because its easier to pick up. Its free, its user friendly, its computer friendly, its developers throw absurd amounts of money into tournaments, its flashy. That doesn't mean its "a better game" by any means.

 

[ShroudedOne]

What makes a game "better" is super duper debatable, by a lot of people (except for extreme cases like Brawl v Melee).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah but this is just turning into a **** waving contest. The only thing LoL has on DotA is the money. Period.

 

[john!]

While I love LoL's character designs, lots of the mechanics are dumbed down. No pathing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZa6hVvmFM0), no denies, dumbed down mana management (removes a bunch of strats based around managing resources better).

#1 and #3 are not even true, and #2 makes league MORE difficult. zoning someone or freezing a lane is much harder if you can't deny.

 

[MacD]

Yeah but this is just turning into a **** waving contest. The only thing LoL has on DotA is the money. Period.

that's a very opinionated answer. and if you like dota more than LoL that's fine

but you realize LoL wasn't made to be DOTA 2 right? the makers wanted to change parts of it. maybe to you denying makes the game more fun/better, but maybe to others the choice of harass vs farming (and being up to you to last hit well) is more fun and "better" in their eys.

granted i haven't played dota too much and i'm not about to get into an argument about which is better. either way, it's hard to say which is better, because better is normally subjective. and in the end your argument was "this is a **** waving contest and DOTA's is bigger, it just doesn't have as much money"

.......

i'm half tempted to just delete this whole thing but meh, i'll leave it and let alan take it from here for me! <3

 

[Rosedemon]

DotA 2 still hasn't been "released".

The fact that you can get something outside of a particular game and have it give you an advantage before the game even starts turns me off. If I remember correctly, in LoL there is one that allows you to restore mana with a cooldown.

While I love LoL's character designs, lots of the mechanics are dumbed down. No pathing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZa6hVvmFM0), no denies, dumbed down mana management (removes a bunch of strats based around managing resources better).

But yeah, more people play LoL because its easier to pick up. Its free, its user friendly, its computer friendly, its developers throw absurd amounts of money into tournaments, its flashy. That doesn't mean its "a better game" by any means.

I think you're confusing runes and summoner spells and its leading you to a false conclusion.

Runes are stat modifiers that you can customize before that game while summoner spells are long CD abilities that you use in the game. Yes, runes increase stats, but they're available to everyone and they allow for interesting counter play based on lane and team comp.

Summoner spells also add depth to the game and character roles. Most players have a love-hate relationship with them, but once again they're open to everyone so to say they give you an advantage is debatable.

Also, while there are ways to heavily increase your mana regen, to say that resource management is dumbed down is ignorant (which is understandable, you dont play the game).

Lastly this all boiled down a simply analogy, and when you bring together everything both games have accomplished so far, to compare LoL to Brawl as DotA 2 is to Melee is just laughable.

 

[DoH]

Can we stop talking about this ****ery?

 

[Xyzz]

LoL should start out with everyone lvl 30 and access to all runes... But that's probably just me, I hate leveling / having inherently worse base stats than somebody else for no reason other than that person invested more time than I did.

I really don't know about dota2, but in comparision to the original dota lasthitting in LoL is really easy because the heroes deal much more damage in comparision to minion hp / damage, so in that regards LoL IS easier. Whether that makes it a game that is less fun to play, is something everyone has to decide for himself. I personally didn't really care for the last hitting part and mostly wanted to play gank oriented stuff or at the very least some supporting characters (I've finished games with more denies than last hits)... but I certainly value it as a skill worth testing.

Mana regen is higher in LoL, so you could call that dumbed down as well, if you want to do so. It's just again the question whether that makes it inherently bad. I really don't think that kind of thing is comparable. Lol might be easier in some departments, but the focus of those games is probably on the team fights, and making the other parts less restrictive opens up the game to "bad" players, in that regard that they can get to the team fights on a rather equal footing; at least I would've thought that... in reality there's so many horrible people in custom LoL games, that as long as I could be completely wasted and still do pretty fine, provided I still hit the intended keys from time to time... :x (compared to melee, where I notice a sharp drop in my play as early as the 3rd beer or sth)


edit: And I do agree with DoH, this topic should be about Peach. Come to think of it... what is your goal in neutral vs Sheik? I've realized that I don't really know what I want vs her at what percents ... We've luckily got somebody new in Munich who mains her, but he isn't quite at the point where I don't get away with just doing whatever seems the most fun at the moment :x

 

[DoH]

Force sheik to the edge to cut off her options. Force her into her shield to weaken it so if you have to downsmash it, it will stab

 

[Xyzz]

What are my best options to beat bairs if I am past the point where I can CC it? Her legs are too damn long :D

 

[DoH]

Don't get hit/fsmash

 

[knightpraetor]

I thought i posted this question, but I guess not. I was curious whether float aerials without dropping are useful in certain situations? i was thinking bair into retreat if missed may be ok since it can come out again faster..nair would be good but fair is just better...

those are my preliminary thoughts..but I figured other people would know from experience, is maintaining a float after low fairs/nairs/bairs a good idea?

 

[Wake]

Yeah just watch Vanz play. He loves using those aerials without dropping the float.

 

[KirbyKaze]

What are my best options to beat bairs if I am past the point where I can CC it? Her legs are too damn long :D

Get under it with dash attack, nair, etc.

If you absorb a weak bair into your shield then shield-punishing it is also an option to consider.

Plus what DoH said.

 

[Xyzz]

Not getting hit is always the safe way out, eh? It just feels pretty hard to reliably punish that way with Peachs low speed and Sheiks long legs and all... (:
But the rest basically makes it sound like a worse CF nair, so I'll definitely give those a shot...

Thanks a lot!

 

[Ryobeat]

I has question. What is my goal vs Jiggz? I dont know what im supposed to be doing, i get good hits/set ups, but i dont know what to focus on doing.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I thought i posted this question, but I guess not. I was curious whether float aerials without dropping are useful in certain situations? i was thinking bair into retreat if missed may be ok since it can come out again faster..nair would be good but fair is just better...

those are my preliminary thoughts..but I figured other people would know from experience, is maintaining a float after low fairs/nairs/bairs a good idea?

This is one of those things that I kinda just felt out. This is definitely useful in certain situations (maybe if you want to mix up your shield pressure and bait a shield grab, bair would be good here). It's also good for cutting off some characters movement paths (Fox, Falcon, Falco) when they want to try to move around you. Nair is good here.

I haven't experimented much with fair. It seems like such a slow move that I just have to float cancel it, so I'm not caught in a vulnerable position.

[COLLAPSE="Puff things for Ryobeat and anyone who cares, I guess"]@Ryobeat: Vs Puff, the super general goal is to try to sneak under her bairs, or to counter attack her after her bairs. And abuse her really really light weight. It's hard for her to really initiate safe shield pressure without giving up space, so abuse that. WD oos (forward) is really good here, because you can encroach on her space with smart shielding, and force her to:

1) Retreat more so that she can space a bair without being punished (she loses stage here)
2) Aerial over you/jump over you (you can punish this with a variety of oos things)
3) Try to tomahawk (you can wd away, roll away, grab her oos while she's in the air)
4) If she just bairs your shield, you can OoS punish with an FC nair oos, regular nair oos, or grab. (FC nair is nice because you can punish her while being in a position to do more if the opportunity comes)

Your go-to spacing move shouldn't really be fair. It takes too long and she can just bair under it. You should try spacing her with bair. Bair is really good because it comes out quickly (compared to fair), lasts a long time, so that space is safe momentarily, and you can often sneak under her with it. Turnips force her to turnaround (from there, you can hit her with a nair/fair), shield them (this is good, because our shield pressure is pretty good against Puff, who has a mediocre out of shield game), or swat them (she can't do this preemptively, she has to react/call a turnip toss, so make sure you aren't obvious with them).

I think that crouch > forward smash has some merit here, because it decreases the amount of you available to be hit, and gets under Puff (frying pan will put her into a great position, and golf club outranges bair). Play around with it at different spacings and see what you get.

Jumping vs her in fear is really bad, if you notice yourself getting baired often, get back to the ground ASAP. In general, you want to DI down + away her combos and bair chains. Since you're Peach, DI down + away isn't the worst, you can still recover. DI'ing up will just get you baired more, you might burn a jump/float unintentionally, and you're in an even worse position (above Puff). And if you get rested (which sucks), you can get the DI away and get killed off the sides, so you can punish her.

Uh...punishing rest...it doesn't really happen, but you can get some dtilt cheese at zero (dtilt > reverse bair > dtilt seems to work). Other than that, throwing a turnip up, letting it hit her and push her into a downsmash/strong hit of upsmash is good. Peach bomber is a reliable 18%. Charged fsmash is probably good (especially frying pan, I think).

Without rest, we kill her first (so do your best to not get rested). Don't fall for her utilting your shield, just buffer roll away after the first one hits your shield. Also, shield grabbing it is risky (she can duck our standing grab and forward smash). For the sake of all that is good, don't jump out of shield vs utilt.

Also, she can CC your dash attack under 45 and rest you. Don't throw it out unless she's in the air, and you know it'll hit, or she's over 50. Also, panic downsmashes can get rested (and downsmash doesn't do that much in this MU anyways), so don't lean on it.

Uair kills her the earliest (aside from a smash attack, or stitch). It can kill her as early as 90 (if it's fresh and they don't DI) on FD. So expect it to kill around 100-110. Nair will kill her around there if you're near the edge of the stage. Basically, after she gets to the 100s, a strong move (nair, fair, uair) will most likely kill her. Earlier kills don't really happen in this matchup.

I don't really know much about stage selection in this MU, but Yoshi's is very good. Apart from that, it kinda depends on the Puff.

This is all stuff I've taken note of/thought about/kind of tested, so if anyone finds anything wrong/misleading/confusing, let me know. [/COLLAPSE]

 

[KirbyKaze]

I has question. What is my goal vs Jiggz? I dont know what im supposed to be doing, i get good hits/set ups, but i dont know what to focus on doing.

I'll give you mostly defense because that's usually one of the most important things vs Puff 'cuz, y'know, rest is kind of ridiculous.

The focus is to withstand and punish any sort of frivolous gimmick she does into your shield as hard as possible (fc nair, shield grab, etc. on u-tilts, and so forth and so on). The easiest way to lose to Puff is to get rested once or twice and then have to wade through bairs to make a comeback - your number one priority is to never get caught by her dangerous nonsense. Against u-tilts, it may be worth your while to angle your shield down or even expand it slightly to protect it from shield pokes.

The next layer of the shield game is basically that Puff is going to catch on to you blocking through all her crap. This will encourage grabbing. This works for you as long as you dodge the grab because Puff whiffing her grab is as close to her being vulnerable as you're going to get (barring a colossal screw-up). Basic options you'd normally use vs grab are your friend. Try to avoid going into the air if you can.

That should get you started. Aside from that, a good general tip is to just try not to be caught by bairs when you're in the air around the 35-70% mark because they'll combo you really hard. If you do get caught, decide whether it's worthwhile to DI away immediately or whether you should take the damage. Sometimes you can escape by DIing away and wind up taking 20%, which is great. But other times even DI away won't save you from Jigglypuff's aerial mobility and she'll just kill you outright because DI away will put you closer to the edge. Just some things to keep in mind.

Offensively, don't dash attack her shield. Control the impulse. You're usually trying to out-position her - look for her blind spots and try to figure out a way of sticking moves there. Some basic ideas that are pretty tried & true are things like... getting under her with nair, occupying the space above & in front of her face with dair & bair, etc. Use turnips to limit where she can jump during this kind of procedure if possible.

 

[knightpraetor]

yes, but how do you approach. i played this like 40 min or so today..and i feel like i spend the whole time walling with bairs or working nair out of shield or running nairs.

however, the running nairs put me really close if i miss. good way to get rested. I honestly am starting to think jiggs can approach safely but peach cannot. turnips only work if she doesn't deflect them. They work really well if she shields them but finding a moment in her game when she doesn't have time to get out a sh bair/nair is hard.

 

[Ryobeat]

yes, but how do you approach. i played this like 40 min or so today..and i feel like i spend the whole time walling with bairs or working nair out of shield or running nairs.

however, the running nairs put me really close if i miss. good way to get rested. I honestly am starting to think jiggs can approach safely but peach cannot. turnips only work if she doesn't deflect them. They work really well if she shields them but finding a moment in her game when she doesn't have time to get out a sh bair/nair is hard.

Use turnips no matter what. Jiggz cant block them forever, and you have infinite turnips. :D Use WD OOS to cut off her space. Like once she starts coming down to the floor, WD OOS forwards and keep pushing her until she is trapped. Then you get under her attacks. I think this matchup is for the most part about positioning. (Warning:This might be wrong, this is just what i think, im not sure if this is set in stone.)

 

[KirbyKaze]

yes, but how do you approach.

Approaching? With Peach?

?_____?

 

[baka4moé]

^ lol yeah...

 

[MacD]

YOU JUST RUN AT THEM AND DASH ATTACK

but what do i know

oh wait, we are talking about puff..... yea you can't really just approach

 

[Wake]

I love McCain's style lol.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You can kind of...uh...turnip > aerial approach...

ALSO THROW YOUR BUTT IN HER FACE.

What KK said about angling your shield is really good vs her utilt, and should protect you from pokes while giving you time to punish. I didn't take that into account. But, can't she utilt > duck, and not get shield grabbed (is FC nair fast enough to get out in between one utilt and another)? I guess FC nair out of shield when she ducks? Or just roll away?

 

[VA]

puff sucks, just hit her when u can and try to pull turnips intelligently because it forces actions from her. she's not fast enough to punish u like most high tiers but can stay in a space that makes it very difficult to do good pulls, well it looks to me like hbox does this effectively against armada anyway.

turnips are a good weapon for vs puff though, like anyone.

 

[Ryobeat]

Or be Fox.

 

[KirbyKaze]

What KK said about angling your shield is really good vs her utilt, and should protect you from pokes while giving you time to punish. I didn't take that into account. But, can't she utilt > duck, and not get shield grabbed (is FC nair fast enough to get out in between one utilt and another)? I guess FC nair out of shield when she ducks? Or just roll away?

I shield grab her u-tilt all the time with Sheik (whose standing grab also misses on crouch) so I think it works. But if you're not confident in your timing then WD OOS is probably a good alternative since it's pretty safe and easy to time.

 

[DoH]

I'm also always crouch canceling vs puff

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah that's actually a good one to point out. Even if you don't get a counterattack, crouching is invaluable because if you don't you can be popped up into bair chains and other nonsense. Denying Puff her combos & rest is basically the only way you have any chance to outpace her in poke vs. poke, which is basically all Peach can do in this one.

Oh yeah. For those with thousands of hours to burn practicing random things, it is possible to do a decent rest punish underneath the higher platforms (BF & dreamland). You can float > turnip drop > FF > d-smash and get the hits as: d-smash > turnip > d-smash. This is kind of relevant when Puff whiffs rest in a position where you can't toss the turnip up and charge the d-smash to get the double hits. Just kind of a random thing. It's irritatingly difficult to do though and probably vulnerable to some kind of ground tech, SDI, or similar.

edit: inb4it'satrap

 

[darkatma]

You can actually do the upthrown turnip->get past puff->charged upsmash/dsmash combo under battlefield's middle platform as well. The timing is a little tricky on the turnip throw, but basically if you throw the turnip upwards with a weak throw (I forget aerial or grounded), it won't pass the height of the platform.

This doesn't work on dreamland because dreamland's middle platform is lower then battlefield's.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's pretty cool.

 

[DoH]

Also some puffs are always going for janking nair/uair into rest and ccing denys them that

 

[KirbyKaze]

That can be filed under "other nonsense".

 

[Rosedemon]

This recent discussion should let puffs no they're NOT welcome here.

 

[KirbyKaze]

We gotta keep those blasted pocket monsters in line.

 

[Xyzz]

We should just be allowed to scratch it some and then throw a moon ball at it, instantly ending the battle by capturing it :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

Imagine if Peach could pull Pokeballs along with Mr. Saturn, Beam Sword, and Bob-omb.

Arbitrarily get Ho-oh land the Sacred Fire > f-throw / nair combo.

 

[Wake]

Oh my god that would be so awesome. So many possibilities...