VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Cia]

Lol.. I love the Tristate crowds. Idk what yall are talkin about..

then again they have been really good to me lately..

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

hey shrouded i am going to say something to u here since only peach's really ever come here and i dont want to start a issue else where. varist is an example of why people sometimes have join date and to some degree post count biased. (this is now a post that refrences two other threads while in a 3rd thread)

 

[Wake]

Well he could just name search

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

he could, but do non well known player do that? and if he does its to bad b/c this is our territory

edit: @vanz and others talking about NY crowds, when I first got into smash I was in the MW so when I came back to NY and went to a melee tourney it shocked the hell out of me, but u get use to it over time. the only thing that still annoys me is when friends of the person I am playing against keep trying to give advice to that pplayer.

edit2: @wake's post below: us peach mains got to stay united

 

[Wake]

hahaha we got yo back

 

[KirbyKaze]

oh my gawd peaches are so catty lawl

 

[Wake]

You know you like it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

hey shrouded i am going to say something to u here since only peach's really ever come here and i dont want to start a issue else where. varist is an example of why people sometimes have join date and to some degree post count biased. (this is now a post that refrences two other threads while in a 3rd thread)

I decided to not continue that argument, cause I didn't really feel like hearing people complain about the argument, I wasn't really interested in putting effort into trying to prove him wrong (even though I could see it), and it was kinda pointless. I think we both need to remember that it's kinda hard to quantify "better" between players that are really close. But yeah, his arguments weren't making sense to me. I was also in a Peach main (catty) mood last night, so....yeah.

It's nice to have a haven for Peaches, I guess. We must stick together, I think.

And yeah, KK, we're extremely catty, but I think we've come to terms with this. Besides, it makes for interesting interaction.

 

[choknater]

my mom is catty as well

 

[crush]

i'm usually catty the days i post in the peach social thread

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I decided to not continue that argument, cause I didn't really feel like hearing people complain about the argument, I was really interested in putting effort into trying to prove him wrong (even though I could see it), and it was kinda pointless. I think we both need to remember that it's kinda hard to quantify "better" between players that are really close. But yeah, his arguments weren't making sense to me. I was also in a Peach main (catty) mood last night, so....yeah.

It's nice to have a haven for Peaches, I guess. We must stick together, I think.

And yeah, KK, we're extremely catty, but I think we've come to terms with this. Besides, it makes for interesting interaction.

Imo proving him wrong was not the issue b/c his argument had no validity behind it. I was just trying to show that if u take out the biased u cant really say who is number one. b/c u r right quantifying better is next to impossible b/c it almost always comes down to opinion which is why at least imo u have to look at the best evidence which of course in this case was gen2. I also dont believe that gen2 shows who is better but just shows who holds the title of best, at least atm. Also if u look at my posts I never said mango could not gain back his number 1 spot or they are not close in skill i said these two players at the top of the game is whats going to make apex so fun to watch .

(I am not arguing with u or anything b/c I know u thought he was wrong as well. I am just trying to put my argument as a whole down)

Also idk if i was being catty, but I was in kinda a bad mode last night so I guess u could call it catty. But i almost feel like my catty turns into being kinda angry and throwing out (what I feel is) logic in places where it could piss people off. lol that how i roll trying to make people mad with logic.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, for some reason, I was pretty irritated last night as well. It was a mix of a lot of things.

But I agree, right now, you can't say who is better based on what we have seen so far. It's between Armada and Mango. I think that Apex will probably show us who is best, if the situations are ideal.

 

[Palpi]

I worked on my peach a lot at ROM and actually won 2 sets with her. I wish we played Mafia, I was going to ask you to teach me the marth match up.
You going to be at Apex?

 

[Wake]

"ask you how to teach me how to fight marth" haha this sounds funny

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

So if pp wins apex then what? is it back to top 3 who r all very close b/c i am ok with that.

I was in a bad mode b/c right now i have a bad part time job right now which i started last night (on sunday). (but if i get the apple job then i am quitting this one so its cool)

 

[Palpi]

"ask you how to teach me how to fight marth" haha this sounds funny

fixeddddddd

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Peach's Fair -> Grab vs Buffered Spotdodge

Peach's Fair -> Grab vs Buffered Roll

Buffered spotdodge will get invincibility the same frame the grab comes out, however buffered roll is too slow to escape before the grab. Peach players should look into switching their mixups from being fair->jab and fair->dsmash to fair->grab and fair->dsmash. Dsmash and grab both beat grab and jump options by the opponent, the only difference in coverage being spotdodge, roll and remaining in shield.

 

[MacD]

u;ieano;vgno;setno;srtgnorno;gien;rlgg wow, backspace made my browser go back deleted my whole post

so

tl:dr that's frame perfection vs a buffer which is really hard but people need to fair > grab more regardless. and jab gives you 4 frames of leeway with that stuff which is why it's so nice

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah even if you are imperfect it still covers 1 of the 3 important choices (staying in shield). Jab seems somewhat redundant now that i think about it, since it really only covers jumps and grabs which are already covered by dsmash and grab. The only time to use jab is maybe when you're significantly imperfect and expect a grab?

 

[MacD]

nah, jab will beat spotdodge and roll too, they have a few frames of vulnerability which jab hits them!!

m2k was all like "omg that's so broken, i can't even buffer role out of fair >jab" when i was playing him at pound 5

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

hmmm interesting. I'll have to take that into account. For now I think i am going to substitute fair jab with fair grab in my own gameplay until i see the benefits of fair jab

 

[Rosedemon]

Mccain hit it on the nail. Fair->jab is dumb stupid good, but we all (including Armada) need to fair->grab SOOOOOOOOO much more.

 

[choknater]

buffering that dodge is done easily by just holding the c-stick

cool info to pop into the thread and see, haha.

 

[john!]

it's rock-paper-scissors like the rest of melee. i think i posted about this a while ago. it was something like this...

YOU CAN: jab, grab, or dsmash

THEY CAN: spotdodge, roll, or hold their shield up (for a shieldgrab or attack OOS)

grab loses to dodge and beats roll (but only if you are near frame perfect) and hold

dsmash beats dodge and "goes even with" roll and hold (they can sometimes punish dsmash OOS and sometimes not)

jab is mindgamey and exists to throw off their timing. it loses to everything if their shield stays up and they react fast enough (unless their character has bad OOS options or is facing the wrong way or something). it beats everything if you stuff their roll, if they execute the dodge, or if they hold and can't react in time

that's why i disagreed with mccain about jab being good

but it has its uses

edit: this is actually really fundamental to understanding peach now that i think about it

maybe those gifs could go in the OP or something

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I agree with rosedemon that we all need to fc to grab more. And as also said b4 mix-ups between grab,d-smash, and jab is very important. but how do people feel about fc>fc? after looking at the pic above I doubt we would have frame advantage but at the same time if done well by us its seems like it could be a risky but viable option. So opinions on that?

Also i still really do feel like we need to talk about shield drop options and uses ect.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I worked on my peach a lot at ROM and actually won 2 sets with her. I wish we played Mafia, I was going to ask you to teach me the marth match up.
You going to be at Apex?

I'm planning on it. I asked a few people if they knew you but it's hard to be like "YO PALPI WHO ARE YOU" lol
I'll do my best, haha. I'm planning on it. Dart and I are planning on teaming :3
also, me vs niko is on MeleeAtlNorth if anyone feels like watching my peach be a basic biitch. Game 1 wasn't recorded, he did a pretty nasty last stock comeback on me sighhhh hard to say i **** marths when i lose to niko, i mean he's good and all but it's a nasty mark on my record

 

[ShroudedOne]

@N.A.G.A.C.E.: We do need to talk about shield dropping. I mentioned it in here a while back, when it was starting to catch momentum, and I think that it's extremely important to at least have in our bag of tricks. If we're getting shield pressured on a platform, shield drop uair/nair seems like it'd be very good. Shield drop nairs against Marth's utilt are also very good. And just for more mobility in general, i think we should start shield dropping.

==

I had some close matches with a Falco here, and I can't believe that the community (as a whole) was saying for the longest time that Peach's wavedash was BAD. Wtf? When put into perspective of who she is, it's amazing. I was wavedashing more for followups (esp OoS) and it's great. Now to phase out rolling.

Also, I'm not quite sure how to deal with shine grabs. I should probably stop being in shield so much.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^^i happened to of already watched your match vs niko, and its true u made a lot of mistakes, but i figure it was tourney pressure b/c u were much better in the vid u posted here a little bit back.

and its always weird when i post shows up while u r writing a post. so @shrouded yea shield dropping seems to be catching some steam now, its funny it took like 3 years since it was discovered for it to start really being noticed. So how does everyone shield drop? do u guys just practice the timing of moving the joystick down at the right speed or do u guys do the 45 degree thing?

 

[crush]

I'm planning on it. I asked a few people if they knew you but it's hard to be like "YO PALPI WHO ARE YOU" lol
I'll do my best, haha. I'm planning on it. Dart and I are planning on teaming :3
also, me vs niko is on MeleeAtlNorth if anyone feels like watching my peach be a basic biitch. Game 1 wasn't recorded, he did a pretty nasty last stock comeback on me sighhhh hard to say i **** marths when i lose to niko, i mean he's good and all but it's a nasty mark on my record

lol dude how do you not know who the 5th best player on the east coast is?

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I just hit down, but like, not exactly down lol, tends to get the trick done most of the time

 

[Van.]

Mafia have you beaten marths better than niko?

there aren't really that many of them...

 

[crush]

Mafia have you beaten marths better than niko?

there aren't really that many of them...

Dart counts right?

Also mafia almost beat citizen sniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiips, 3rd best player on the east coast.

Moral of the story: citizen sniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiips is 3rd best player on the east coast. oh and mafia is pretty good I guess.

 

[Quaz]

I used to fair - jab a ton like 3 years ago, but now I feel like whenever I do it I either get shield grabbed or they'll just cc the jab and then grab me anyways =(

I guess thats where mix ups come in.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Quaz i seriously havent seen you play peach in forever. At chris' i was the only one playing peach

 

[Cia]

Dart counts right?

Absolutely Not. I've seen them both play and I mean no disrespect to Dart, but Niko is defintely the better the two. There's also HBK. Not sure how much he still plays tho.

 

[KirbyKaze]

VaNz, what's it like being able to infract me again?

A funny edgeguard Riddlebox has been experimenting with is WD > FF > grab edge > float off dair > nair to prevent Fox & Falco from being able to wall-tech during Firefox sweetspots. Using invincibiltiy also prevents costly trades, which is a weakness of the onstage dair edgeguard.

Kind of situational and you need time to set it up but it gets me every now and then.

Jaden we're gonna do really well in teams. I'm gonna play more teams friendlies with Riddlebox for APEX training to get some Peach & Sheik practice. Unless you wanna do double Sheik but I hate that team. I suck at it.

 

[Wake]

I was thinking about WD>FF>ledge Grab> Float down bair is as far as I got, but yeah being able to retain the float from ledge grabbing is soo nice. Floating to the ledge is nice and all, but man, keeping the float is awesome...

 

[ShroudedOne]

I wish we could save portions of our float. Like, float for a second, end it, and then while still in the air, float for another second, and then end it, and then float for another second. So that if we end our float early, we still have like, 2 seconds. Wishful thinking, though.

I should focus on floating from the ledge more for edge guards. It'd be another option, and help me not SD when I leave the ledge to do things.

 

[VA]

VaNz, what's it like being able to infract me again?

A funny edgeguard Riddlebox has been experimenting with is WD > FF > grab edge > float off dair > nair to prevent Fox & Falco from being able to wall-tech during Firefox sweetspots. Using invincibiltiy also prevents costly trades, which is a weakness of the onstage dair edgeguard.

Kind of situational and you need time to set it up but it gets me every now and then.

Jaden we're gonna do really well in teams. I'm gonna play more teams friendlies with Riddlebox for APEX training to get some Peach & Sheik practice. Unless you wanna do double Sheik but I hate that team. I suck at it.

If I ever get back to the US can we team like we were meant to please

 

[KirbyKaze]

Preserving your float enables you to cover option you otherwise couldn't in many situations.