VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[crush]

thanks for sharing, crush.

wel come

 

[Veril]

Do you use AR to figure all this out veril?

Nope. The full response to that question would be EXCESSIVELY tl;dr, so I'll spare you how I'm going about the testing.

I will be using AR once I get tired of training mode and have looked through the character files a bit. Kinda don't want to play with AR after spending soooooo much time in frame advance for brawl. Meh. I just got the iso a little while ago so I'm gonna be playing with that after I finish the stuff I had planned on testing with peach.

Also my copy of melee is stuck in a friend's unhacked wii like won't eject and they refuse to get it fixed.

:fuuu:

When it comes to numbers like that, I tend to already have a sense of them.

For example, when you talked about the KO %s of a fresh upair on the various cast, I had already figured this out. No, im not being pretentious, but this is something that my many matches had already taught my (especially when dealing with the fast fallers).

I've actually heard the same thing from a number of people who've played competitively for a long time.

After playing the game for long enough you start to notice these things just because of pattern recognition during competitive play. I don't have years of practice with Peach but I still want to know all this stuff. Some but almost definitely not all of it will be things you could learn by playing extensively.

NOT. AT. ALL.

It just needs to be archived somewhere that's easy to access because no one is gonna say "oh yeah veril posted info about that on page 94357349 of xxxxxxxxx's thread post # 48539485937."

Acutally alot of that stuff you posted would fit very nicely in your Data thread.

Yeah, I'm gonna update the data thread once I've finished the next table. Its gonna be soooo sweet and boring to normal people, but awesome. I figured out the growth rates of different Peach hitboxes (up to like 25 now) and extrapolated out the tumble % from testing the extreme ends of the weight and the next lowest 3 weight classes, since the weights increase by increments of multiples of 5 (55, 60, 70, 75, 80, 85) through the bottom 6 weight classes (comprising the 10 lightest characters). Testing Bowser as well showed when a move induced tumble at 0 vs. the whole cast, or when knockback was fixed or had a weight independent growth rate (like f-throw). Its an enormous number of tests with 17 distinct weight classes and a lot of hitboxes, many of which I will never test (sorry peach bomber and toad and mr saturn, etc). But the testing is pretty easy now since I know within a few % what the value I'm checking for will be (again its a direct linear relationship between weight and change in tumble % on moves with weight dependent knockback growth, so I can just line of best fit up in dat excel but I check in training to confirm). The only things that are really annoying to test are rare turnips and the f-smash.

You can also combo [side-b] off d-tilt sometimes, but honestly there are much better things to hit if you land something precious like a d-tilt.

Also, I'm the number man so I do appreciate Veril's efforts. I agree with VaNz in that his data thread is probably a better place for it, though. This thread is more for general strategy discussion, IMHO. Matchups, edgeguarding, stage specifics, etc. But maybe that's just how I see the various threads and categorize them.

Yeah I checked that combo and was like, "WTF are you / am I doing with your/my life!?" What an incredible waste of a d-tilt lol. Literally all I knew about you before coming here was that you were canadian frame expert who played sheik.


I don't have much to contribute to this thread other than numbers sadly. Kinda still suck at smash compared to the people here lol

 

[Rosedemon]

Still patiently waiting on that Brinstar post big boy...

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Can someone please explain the game's rock/paper/scissors to me? And how to apply it? I don't understand it.

 

[john!]

it's an analogy for attack, shield, grab. attack beats grab, which beats shield, which beats attack. it's a simple way to design a game so that every action taken by the opponent has a counter. obviously smash is way more complex, but that's what it boils down to.

 

[VA]

Am I the only one that likes FC nair as a mix up from dtilt on low to mid %s? If they survival DI it leads into dash attack and notches up the damage of your combo. Meh.

 

[DoH]

Why not uair?

 

[john!]

a good player won't do survival di at low to mid percents, though.

use uair, it combos, it *****, and nobody uses it enough

 

[VA]

it's a mix up? dependent on position and % I think it's legit. uair is one of two obvious options to me, the other being dash attack. if they combo DI and you've used FC nair at an appropriate position and % i.e mid and near to the edge they get ****ed. whatevs, I always have things that I think work that other people disagree with. I wanted to use running shine > nair > grab on marth (works in PAL) on low %s and everyone said it's ****. I still think it's sick.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I certainly think that things like this should be played around with. Peach mains need to look as cute as possible. That being said, though, I would think that uair or dash attack would be the better options (and yeah, more obvious).

But I think dtilt > FC nair > dash attack > other things could very well work, as long as you don't make a habit of that.

 

[Palpi]

Lookin cute, Feelin Cute.

 

[VA]

I certainly think that things like this should be played around with. Peach mains need to look as cute as possible. That being said, though, I would think that uair or dash attack would be the better options (and yeah, more obvious).

But I think dtilt > FC nair > dash attack > other things could very well work, as long as you don't make a habit of that.

Argh, it's not a habit. It's a mixup! I would explain it further but I doubt people will see their merits of it. I guess it's bad.

 

[ShroudedOne]

No, no, I get that it's a mixup. Sorry if I made it sound like I was saying it's bad. It's not. God knows Peach needs as many mixups as she can get...

 

[john!]

why do we need to look cute? why can't we look badass?

 

[KirbyKaze]

and then he does another get-up attack and it hits while you are lagging from the toad

Toad would never fail me like that.

I think I want to experiment more with jab cancels and SH Uair > falling / float aerial. Seems like it could be a fun thing to screw around with.

 

[VA]

sometimes I run off the edge and nair with peach cos I like to pretend I is sheik.

 

[ShroudedOne]

May 20th of this year:

You guys gotta give up the Toad now.

Today:

Toad would never fail me like that.

I think I want to experiment more with jab cancels and SH Uair > falling / float aerial. Seems like it could be a fun thing to screw around with.

What caused the change in faith, KirbyKaze? And f-tilt > f-smash, anyone? I feel that would be extremely situational and janky, but good, like...once a day.

 

[john!]

What caused the change in faith, KirbyKaze?

he heard me saying that toad is good

 

[VA]

you can't claim to know **** about toad until you've mastered reverse toading.

 

[DoH]

KirbyKaze is a flip flopper.


Nah, he's just a big bottom

 

[VA]

KirbyKaze is a flip flopper.


Nah, he's just a big bottom

and you know this how

 

[DoH]

I have eyes.

 

[VA]

I have eyes.

fair comment

 

[Wake]

sometimes I run off the edge and nair with peach cos I like to pretend I is sheik.

I do the same thing

 

[Composeur]

Anyone who's into lumberjacks is obviously a raging top.

 

[KirbyKaze]

KirbyKaze is a flip flopper.


Nah, he's just a big bottom

I've been topping a lot more lately. But that doesn't really mean much, because before I didn't at all.

Now I'd wager it's a 75/25 split.



edit:

LMFAO Composeur and DoH's 2nd post on it ("I have eyes"). Yeah... I don't have anything to add to that. Reminds me of Xelic's comment when Mike asked who he thought in GTA was gay and he was like, "Well, KirbyKaze because duh."

 

[ShroudedOne]

KirbyKaze, you aren't a member of Zelda Dungeon by any chance, are you?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't even know what that is.

 

[baka4moé]

hey all,

im in some need of advice. i really feel like im plateauing lately, having trouble identifying what i need to improve on, and its been quite frustrating. lately i've been losing to a lot of falcos, so im looking for help on this matchup. thanks to anyone in advance! anything to note would be nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e3lkKrxrC8 (he uses falcon first game just fyi lol)

 

[Palpi]

I think you need to work on your edgeguarding, it took you until game 3 to realize he always recovers high, whether it is a forward b to a platform or up-b to the ledge. ( I don't know about anyone else, but I find that many spacies do this against peach, so it is one of the first options I try to read)

Also, I think some of your deaths could have been prevented with better DI or better spacing. You bair his shield while he was on a platform and if you aren't falling away from him at that point, you're going to get punished. This same type of bair on shield ->punish happened a few times I think. If you hesitate on a punish, don't force it, because more often than not you will get punished for that hesitation. You would probably be better off trying to WD oos or roll to reset to neutral.

 

[ShroudedOne]

hey all,

im in some need of advice. i really feel like im plateauing lately, having trouble identifying what i need to improve on, and its been quite frustrating. lately i've been losing to a lot of falcos, so im looking for help on this matchup. thanks to anyone in advance! anything to note would be nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e3lkKrxrC8 (he uses falcon first game just fyi lol)

2:38: He spaces a bair really well on your shield, and you try to shield grab him, and get punished. You want to watch what attacks they place on your shield and how; if he does it like that, roll away, or wavedash out to punish his punish. People know that Peach will shield grab, I think, so they try to be extra careful on her shield.

2:41 Not a good place for a roll. Maybe float away, or shield, or wavedash off the platform.

2:59 Again, not a good roll. He didn't punish you there, but he could have. Falco's uptilt can reach through those platforms.

3:36 Mixup the DI on Falco's shines. Make him work for that combo a little more.

4:53 This happens to me a lot, where I'll float near the stage, thinking I'm safe, and forgetting that Falco has a dair. I don't think a spacie will hesitate to throw a dair out from there, because even if you react, the best you'll do is trade, and then die.

5:23 If you shield Falco's laser, you don't just want to sit there. Even if it's just a wavedash back, you have to act after shielding a laser (most of the time, anyways). See if you can get him in his laser lag, if not, then retreat.

6:24 I think that was just a string of bad decisions. I wouldn't focus so much on trying to push him away from you in that position as I would getting out of that position.

7:01 You have to realize when he's pushing you for a roll, and choose another option. This is something that you kind of have to get a feel for, but when you're being pressured at the ledge, I think it's safe to say that a roll inwards is not only the first option they look for, but the easiest to catch.

It seems like you aren't yet comfortable handling Falco from neutral, which is really, really important in that one. It's kinda hard, but you have to have a mix between approaching him when he's open (FC fairs when he's lasering), and forcing him to approach you (power shielding, WD back, etc) , and then punishing him for it.

I hope this helps you at least somewhat, baka. Oh, and btw, I heard someone in commentary once calling you "back4more." Is that where the tag came from, or does it mean something else?

 

[thesage]

wd back d-smash is the best thing in the game. I don't even have to do things anymore.

Anyone who's into lumberjacks is obviously a raging top.

>_>;

 

[Composeur]

I want to bottom, but I can't because it...hurts and has...repercussions...

Also, what is up with megabus blocking youtube?? I'm trying to watch baka's vid and macd vs jman to no avail.

 

[DoH]

If it hurts you're doing it wrong

 

[choknater]

did u guys watch this?

armada interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k3IO0HFofk

:D

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah. I had expected (and was right) that his thoughts would be of a simpler nature, cause Peach mains don't have complex thoughts about this game.

 

[baka4moé]

thanks for the advice guys. ya im having trouble figuring out how to approach falco and how to deal with his lasers. especially campy falcos, whether laser camp or platform camp, dont know how to approach/where to position myself to hopefully bait a mistake or something; anyone have any ideas?

i guess i just need to buckle down and actually practice wd oos and....powersheilding...ugh. but wd oos seems incredibly useful, i just need to do it.

ill watch that interview later today now i have something to look forward to lol

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've actually come to the realization that Falco is my worst matchup. And it's funny, cause that's the one I play the most, but I don't have an answer for lasers, really. I used to powershield a lot, but when a Falco changes up their timing, I get screwed, and stuck in one corner until they dair me.

I've been thinking about things like full jump floating out of shield after a laser, or power shield rolling, or just taking lasers, but in the moment, I just crumble under good Falco pressure. I think floating over lasers is good. I've tried using platforms to avoid them, to no avail...

I don't know why anyone assume that Peach has the advantage in that one, personally. It's either even, or slightly in his favor.

 

[EPsilon933]

I just float high and approach with fair, nair, bair, or dair to avoid lasers. If I get hit while on the ground, I just take the hit. It's only at most 3%. If I get hit during a float, ruined

If you hit Falco, don't let him get back up on his feet. His spacing game is good because he can make your spacing game bad

 

[baka4moé]

lol i forgot to answer ur question shrouded. no, baka4moe is my original tag, back4more kinda just came about as a nickname just because some people didn't understand what baka4moe meant and thought it sounded like back4more....lol...thats really it haha