VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Rosedemon]

If Doc capes Peach at the moment of her up-b, it sends her into an extreme tumble animation with MAJOR stun.

The timing is hard though, and you can get around it by just not recovering low, which doesnt really limit your options because Doc's bair ***** Peach's low options anyway.

 

[ConnorTheKid]

I'm pretty sure the cape only stuns people are higher percents-ish. Otherwise Chok's right. it sends Peach up higher.

 

[Shroomed]

^^^^^^

Alan knows what he's talking about against Doc guys.

Low percents it cancels her up B. Mid percents it starts tumbling her.

 

[Rosedemon]

Me have Doc experience? BLASPHEMOUS!

 

[VA]

****ing serena williams. let's go stosur.

 

[MacD]

Me have Doc experience? BLASPHEMOUS!

man, people questioning alan on what doc does to peach lawl

if you are already in the floating part of your up-b, then you get sent higher

if you are in the rising part, then you get stunned/tumbled/whatever

 

[crush]

Can't doc eedgeguard peaches ledge sweetspot up-b with down tilt?

Also macD how much longer are you staying near MA?

 

[MacD]

i'm in MA till sat

hanging out with mdz on tuesday, staying with my sis in boston like thursday night/friday

currently at mafia's and as of right now, will be till thursday. gonna try to work out other housing options though but all will be in MA nearish boston probably

 

[crush]

Oh so you wont be at the Rhode island tournament :/

 

[MacD]

haha sorry, as much as i'd like to lose that one too, already will have been here for 2 1/2 weeks

i'll be back for apex though i'm sure since i'm teaming with darc =D .... even though he hates me

 

[VideoKidHEERO]

To be fair...
He hates everything.

 

[Rosedemon]

****ing serena williams. let's go stosur.

Congrats to Stosur, but Serena will be back.

The Aussie wins the US tourny, but the American is gonna take the Australian Open for sure.

 

[Palpi]

Serena is a horrible person. Get at me.

 

[Degree]

Hey guys, got a question. The way I hold my controller is that I use my index fingers on the shoulder buttons and use my thumb for A/B as well as jump. I don't normally have too much of an issue in doing what I want to do, but I've found that I'm not able to float, move into position to where I want to go and aerial. (Apart from nair) I want to use the c-stick for the aerial so that I don't lose the momentum I have, but when I release my thumb from the jump button to use the c-stick I lose the float.

Is there something I'm missing or need to do differently?

 

[Composeur]

Hey guys, got a question. The way I hold my controller is that I use my index fingers on the shoulder buttons and use my thumb for A/B as well as jump. I don't normally have too much of an issue in doing what I want to do, but I've found that I'm not able to float, move into position to where I want to go and aerial. (Apart from nair) I want to use the c-stick for the aerial so that I don't lose the momentum I have, but when I release my thumb from the jump button to use the c-stick I lose the float.

Is there something I'm missing or need to do differently?

I was asking about something similar to this a few weeks ago. Unless you start using your index finger to hold the jump/float buttons, there is literally no way for you to use the C-stick for floating aerials. By far the easiest option is for you to practice practice practice your floating aerials using only A. It sucks and requires a lot more precision and faith than the C-stick, but it's absolutely necessary unless you want to retrain your middle finger to shield and your index finger to jump (which I think would be more work).

I still do use the C-stick when I'm just short-hopping and falling from heights and stuff. You just have to be very aware of the sensitivities of the control stick, and how it's tilted exactly when you press A. An imperfect solution, yes.

Let me know if you figure anything useful out, please. I'd love to hear about it.

 

[Veril]

Been getting all the % that peach's moves induce tumble vs. the cast. The % is based on character weight. So the same move will cause Pichu to tumble at earlier % than Kirby, who in turn tumbles before Marth, etc.

Here's the order from lowest to highest % tumble inducing moves: [hitbox description, CC or not] (Pichu - Bowser, the chart will have all weight classes when its done though. ? means I didn't test bowser/Pichu yet, since I sorta do things in a scatterbrained way)

1. Golf Club [17 damage], d/b/u throw, up-smash [19 damage], Tennis racket [12 damage],
Fair, Down Tilt [vs. grounded opponents], and Dash Attack [12 damage]: ALL induce tumble at 0% against the entire cast. IIRC stitchface also induces tumble at 0 but I haven't confirmed yet.
2. Up-smash [15 damage] (?-6%)
3. Frying Pan [17 damage] (2-?%)
4. Up-Tilt [12 damage] (9-18%)
5. F-Tilt [13 damage] (13-24%)
6. Strong Nair [14 damage] (16-27%)
7. Golf Club [13 damage] (?-30%)
8. F-tilt [11 damage] (19-?%)
9. Up-air [14 damage] (20-34%)
10. Down-Tilt [12 damage, crouch canceled] (22-35%)
11. F-tilt [10 damage] (23-?%)
12. Down-Tilt [12 damage, 70° trajectory] (26-41%)
13. Up-Smash [8 damage] (28-?%)
14. Up-Air [12 damage] (27-47%)
15. Back-Air [14 damage] (29-?%)
16. Up-Air [11 damage] (31-?%)
17. Back-Air [10 damage] (46-?)
18. Nair [10 damage] (48-?%)
19. Nair [9 damage] (54-?%)
20. Jabx2 [5 damage total] (84-119%)
21. Neutral Tossed Normal Turnip [6 damage] (96-high%)

*Peach's Forward throw (when fresh) always induces tumble at 27% regardless of character thrown.
*1st jab never induces tumble. It can force a getup when used to Jab reset vs. MewTwo, Marth, Roy, Young Link, ICs, Peach, Zelda/Sheik, Ness, Mario and his clones, Link, CF, Yoshi, Ganon, Samus, DK and Bowser. Pichu, GW, Jiggs, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu and Falco are too light, and can roll, getup attack, etc.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I was asking about something similar to this a few weeks ago. Unless you start using your index finger to hold the jump/float buttons, there is literally no way for you to use the C-stick for floating aerials. By far the easiest option is for you to practice practice practice your floating aerials using only A. It sucks and requires a lot more precision and faith than the C-stick, but it's absolutely necessary unless you want to retrain your middle finger to shield and your index finger to jump (which I think would be more work).

I still do use the C-stick when I'm just short-hopping and falling from heights and stuff. You just have to be very aware of the sensitivities of the control stick, and how it's tilted exactly when you press A. An imperfect solution, yes.

Let me know if you figure anything useful out, please. I'd love to hear about it.

I always seem like the odd Peach out whenever people talk about FC'ing aerials, cause not only do I often jump to float with my index finger, but it was really natural for me to do so, so that I could FC all my aerials with the C-stick. Everyone says use A, and using A is probably the simpler method. =P

But I don't think he'd have to learn to shield with his middle finger, cause you don't need to shield when you're floating, do you?

 

[Veril]

The claw grip is where its at. Conservation of motion and all that good stuff. Use L to shield.

 

[kalamazhu]

Congrats to Stosur, but Serena will be back.

The Aussie wins the US tourny, but the American is gonna take the Australian Open for sure.

it's all about mens

 

[Palpi]

I dislike nadal and choke a bich..so idc who wins...I love tsonga and federer

 

[MacD]

talk about tennis in this thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262946

k thanks bye

 

[Rosedemon]

Ugh, people trying to copy me and go off topic is so last year.

Please invent your own personalities.

k thanks bye

 

[Veril]

This thread stopped being useful after VaNz first post lol

I feel like anything I put in here will just be lost.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I read what you post, Veril. It's just that numbers are hard to translate to gameplay, for me. =P

So, I'm having a problem. I've been steadily improving over the summer, I think, and I've started to notice when I play against others that my Peach is rather stale. Like, there are very predictable patterns that I see myself following as I play. Peach isn't the most dynamic character, and I feel like it's really easy to get into a comfortable play style that doesn't advance you anywhere? How can I break out of this "rut"?

Also, I've heard that it's a good idea in friendlies to use every move in every situation, so that you can get a feel for the amount of options you have in any particular moment. However, I find it hard to constantly keep in my mind, "What if I add this move here, instead of that?" or, "What if I buffer a roll instead of nair OoS?" Even in friendlies, which shouldn't be taken seriously, I'm focusing more on doing things that I know (or have a fair reason to believe) will work. I did an up-throw to FC nair on a Falco recently, and I think that's the move inventive thing I've done. So I guess I just want to figure out new ways to change it up, so that my Peach looks weird, and is difficult to figure out.

tl;dr: I need help being dynamic with Peach.

 

[Veril]

Knowing tumble % is like knowing combo ranges or KO%. IMO those are key values to understand with a given move. I mean, I'm still a noob at melee, but I like to know everything numerically relavent about a character. There's precious little of the data I'd like to see on Peach, so I'm collecting everything I think may be in any way useful... errrr... everything. Except Peach bomber. What a dumb move. Science has already done all that can be done for her side-b.

The point at which turnips induce tumble is very important because it drastically alters the followups due to how tumble limits options in the air, and forces bounce/tech on landing. It also means that the move has at least 31 frames of hitstun, which means you can extrapolate a range of possible advantages on hit.

A good portion of what I collect won't be immediately applicable. Some of it may lack any strategic merit. But I'm not really a good enough player to always judge when data is useful or not, so I just collect lots of it. I have a decent grasp of the melee mechanics now that Strong Bad and Magus have helped me catch up, and I sure do like testing stuff for reasons totally beyond me.

When I have a bunch of time to type up a wall of text, I'll use "F-Throw when fresh always induces tumble at 27% across the entire cast." to attempt to explain how to use my info.



Oh man, wall of numbers... its coming. I haven't produced a wall of data in like... at least a year. You'll see.

 

[crush]

Do you use AR to figure all this out veril?

 

[ShroudedOne]

And I suppose I should ask about that as well. I always just took for granted what tumble was, and I don't think I'm wrong about what it is, but Veril, please feel free to explain it in more detail, please?

 

[Rosedemon]

When it comes to numbers like that, I tend to already have a sense of them.

For example, when you talked about the KO %s of a fresh upair on the various cast, I had already figured this out. No, im not being pretentious, but this is something that my many matches had already taught my (especially when dealing with the fast fallers).

Now its true I didnt know these EXACT %s, but I had my thresholds. My thought process was mainly when X character is over ~Y%, my uair would kill them.

I agree with shrouded's statement about how its very hard to translate numbers into the game. While it may not be true for you, it is for others. ESPECIALLY when someones drive isnt there. Its really and effort vs reward thing.

 

[Cia]

This thread stopped being useful after VaNz first post lol

I feel like anything I put in here will just be lost.

NOT. AT. ALL.

It just needs to be archived somewhere that's easy to access because no one is gonna say "oh yeah veril posted info about that on page 94357349 of xxxxxxxxx's thread post # 48539485937."

Acutally alot of that stuff you posted would fit very nicely in your Data thread.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Except Peach bomber. What a dumb move. Science has already done all that can be done for her side-b.

I've seen people land it when they read someone is going to move off a platform without an attack and they can't reach it by floating forward or backward. But it's inherently gimmicky and I doubt it'll work more than once (if once at all). MacD is amazing.

You can also combo it off d-tilt sometimes, but honestly there are much better things to hit if you land something precious like a d-tilt.

Also, I'm the number man so I do appreciate Veril's efforts. I agree with VaNz in that his data thread is probably a better place for it, though. This thread is more for general strategy discussion, IMHO. Matchups, edgeguarding, stage specifics, etc. But maybe that's just how I see the various threads and categorize them.

 

[MacD]

as much as i'd like to take credit for being amazing, it's like 95% of the time an accident when i do one

especially those random times when they hit

 

[KirbyKaze]

I tried. Peach Bomber can never be good.

 

[choknater]

i like when peaches hit usmash shoulder hits

 

[DoH]

Bomber is fun as a read when people roll, tech in place, or jab reset

 

[john!]

i'm starting to get people with toad over 50% of the time. hugely underrated move.

 

[crush]

i'm starting to get people with toad over 50% of the time. hugely underrated move.

yeah thats what i was saying a while back. the toad is peaches best move imo outside of up-b oos.

 

[john!]

thanks for sharing, crush.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I still want to jab reset > Fox does get-up attack > Toad.

 

[john!]

I still want to jab reset > Fox does get-up attack > Toad.

and then he does another get-up attack and it hits while you are lagging from the toad

 

[ShroudedOne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_fS4qLT78g&#t=5m03s

MacD uses the parasol to shield poke Jman, and then ftilts him. Innovation at it's finest. :D

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_fS4qLT78g&#t=5m15s

And then he gets super duper waveshined.