VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[darkatma]

Hey guys
i recently lost to a samus and i'm trying to get more matchup knowledge on it.
Basically I approached with FH turnip throw to fc Fair but she would just shield it and Up B OOS or WD back to punish. it was kind of hard to approach him with anything near the ground because of the missiles and the ftilt outranges everything. I can kind of edgeguard and stuff. So if you guys can tell me anything you know about this matchup that would be great!! thanks!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gquhja3c4M&t=3m26s
Don't always approach with the same thing and you'll be fine

 

[Wake]

I feel like I always get punished for FC Nair---> Dtilt on someone's shield which I saw you do on Duck... Should it work, but I'm just messing up on spacing or something? Or is it pretty punishable with shield grabs (which is usually what happens to me)?

 

[mers]

I feel like I always get punished for FC Nair---> Dtilt on someone's shield which I saw you do on Duck... Should it work, but I'm just messing up on spacing or something? Or is it pretty punishable with shield grabs (which is usually what happens to me)?

Depending on the character, you should definitely be able to space around shield grabs. Both fair and dtilt have pretty insane range.

My question: What the **** do I do against Jigglypuff? Like seriously, I don't understand. I have no idea what kind of mindset I should be approaching the match with.

A few of my disconnected thoughts on the matchup:

I can't keep pressure on her because she flies away. Turnips seem good, but I rarely get a chance to pull them. Dash attack is wonderful when she's in the air and in range. She forces me to shield with ease, and none of my OoS options are useful. Spaced bair pressure seems unbeatable.

HELP

 

[darkatma]

I feel like I always get punished for FC Nair---> Dtilt on someone's shield which I saw you do on Duck... Should it work, but I'm just messing up on spacing or something? Or is it pretty punishable with shield grabs (which is usually what happens to me)?

You should only use the move as a mixup IMO. Fair->Dtilt is actually pretty bad shield pressure if they jump/some characters like samus can grab in time. You want to do it if you believe they're expecting fair->jabs or fair-any other attack, basically as long as they keep their shield up.

Also you should be able to space Fair->dtilt and dodge many grabs, such as sheik's or fox's.


edit: lol read Nair as Fair... but the same thoughts apply. FC Fair to dtilt probably works better than Nair.



@ mers:
Playing against jigglypuff is a huge test of spacing. You really have to understand puff's range (basically her bair distance) versus peach's range. Usually you want to attack later than puff after dodging an attack and then punish with one of your own. One way is to use peach's ability to change her momentum in the air with the double jump to help you do that. Turnips are good if they're in the mid range, but not if they're far away.(You want to be far away when pulling turnips) Try to kill puff off top whenever possible - upair comes to mind. Try to space with FC fairs, but usually defensively (retreating), not offensively as much.

You don't need to keep pressure on puff, just focus on tacking on damage for the kill. You should be happy with 2-3 hit combos loll. Also don't stay in your shield, or at least wavedash out of it often. You can use platforms better than puff as well because your first jump is faster.

 

[thesage]

Yea I just spam lots of turnips in the puff matchup until it's dead.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I got to play a Puff last Friday for the first time. I think Puff's moves are generally easier to space than ours, which makes it a lot harder for us than for her. I did learn that fairs are good defensively, and that her up tilt shield pokes a lot, so wd OoS is probably good. You don't want to be in shield that much.

Personally, I like staying close to the ground for this one, but knowing when to do both helps.

I'm also really bad at using turnip combos...

 

[Palpi]

Peach needs turnips against most floaties imo...

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah...Marth, Jiggs, Ganon, etc...

I've watched Genesis 1 GFs multiple times, but I can't seem to seamlessly connect turnips to aerials the way Armada does. Like turnip throw to nair, or fair. And that's kinda important.

 

[Wake]

You should only use the move as a mixup IMO. Fair->Dtilt is actually pretty bad shield pressure if they jump/some characters like samus can grab in time. You want to do it if you believe they're expecting fair->jabs or fair-any other attack, basically as long as they keep their shield up.

Also you should be able to space Fair->dtilt and dodge many grabs, such as sheik's or fox's.


edit: lol read Nair as Fair... but the same thoughts apply. FC Fair to dtilt probably works better than Nair.



@ mers:
Playing against jigglypuff is a huge test of spacing. You really have to understand puff's range (basically her bair distance) versus peach's range. Usually you want to attack later than puff after dodging an attack and then punish with one of your own. One way is to use peach's ability to change her momentum in the air with the double jump to help you do that. Turnips are good if they're in the mid range, but not if they're far away.(You want to be far away when pulling turnips) Try to kill puff off top whenever possible - upair comes to mind. Try to space with FC fairs, but usually defensively (retreating), not offensively as much.

You don't need to keep pressure on puff, just focus on tacking on damage for the kill. You should be happy with 2-3 hit combos loll. Also don't stay in your shield, or at least wavedash out of it often. You can use platforms better than puff as well because your first jump is faster.

I see I see. Tank ya

 

[baka4moé]

hey all,

i'm in need of help with the marth matchup. its been one of my hardest MUs for a long time, and i finally got a tourney set recorded. i thought really really hard this set >_<, so watching the whole set would mean a lot. please help, any comments would be wonderful, thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzkkJ6XvAzY&feature=related

 

[Rosedemon]

You're not patient enough. Force Marth to approach you, but dont spam turnips like you did at the very beginning. Pull one, see how he reacts, then throw it at him when appropriate (if he approaches unsafely or doesnt approach at all).

I see you try to read with grabs a lot, I recommend not to do this. Grabbing Marth doesnt lead to much, and getting punished for it is really painful. If you get hit by a badly spaced Fsmash, wavedash OoS with a grab (ONLY if you can land it), downsmash, or dash attack.

Also, always recover high against Marth. Dont let the best edgegaurder in the game guard your edge.

 

[Veril]

Everything below is assuming the opponent uses a normal shield, not a lightshield. I'm having trouble finding any data on those but have been told advantage permutations on lightshield are different.

I feel like I always get punished for FC Nair---> Dtilt on someone's shield... Should it work, but I'm just messing up on spacing or something? Or is it pretty punishable with shield grabs (which is usually what happens to me)?

Behold the magic of numbers! Best possible advantage on block for f/b/n-air is 4 (with a frame perfect float cancel from a ground float). D-tilt hits on frame 12. Most good grabs in this game hit frame 7. The worst standing grabs in the game hit frame 18 (Samus and Yoshi). On the other hand Samus can still WD OOS. Also worth noting is that grabs win vs any hitbox if a grabbable hurtbox is within range, and some moves extend Peach's hurtbox (this applies to many many moves for the whole cast, notably d-tilts).

So no, FC anything -> d-tilt is not "safe" on shield. At least not frame safe.

samus can grab in time.

Samus is one of the only characters who can't grab on time.

Tether grabs (also Zelda) are crap and will be beat out by the d-tilt. Many grabs which would win framewise are out of range following the fair. Nair not quite so great with the range.

A caveat is that Shield SDI is slowly being improved by players like S2J, Armada (I'm pretty sure I've seen him shield SDI vs. spacie shield pressure to get lolwut grabs), etc. Peach's aerials (other than dair) are not short on hitlag, so don't expect the space between her and the shielding opponent to be consistently out of grab range. Adderall son. Its like vitamins for fox.

Fair to d-tilt is cool as a mixup though. Just remember that you can aerial on shield and dash grab, and it will work far more consistently than d-tilt (having roughly half the startup lag).

Hope that excessively answers the question.


Do any of you know about partial CCing, lightshield adv or that in between lightshield and normal shield adv? I've noticed all of these things in testing and they don't seem to be common knowledge. Help?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Partial crouch cancelling? I wasn't even aware that something like that existed...

As far as light shielding vs normal shielding, all I could tell you is that shield stun in light shield seems to be slightly greater than shield stun in hard shield. But don't quote me on that...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Easiest way to prove the existence of partial crouch canceling (I always called it fake cc but w/e) and true crouch canceling:

Requires 2 controllers, a gamecube, SSBM, and a TV.
Need Puff unlocked.

Go to training mode. Set the CPU (P2) to Puff. Set the human player (P1) to Fox.
Calibrate the control stick for P2 to "down".
Set the CPU to human. Jigglypuff should start crouching.

True crouch cancel:
Walk up to her and up smash. You'll notice she still crouches.

Fake crouch cancel:
Refresh your up smash by killing yourself. Make Jigglypuff Rest (by pushing B). Walk up to her and up smash. She gets knocked over.

But what does this mean?!

All it means is there's two kinds of crouch cancel. True crouch cancel involves you crouching while you're not in another action. It is more powerful than fake crouch cancel, which is done by holding down while you're doing something or lagging from something. You can survive KO moves into higher percents with TCC than you could with FCC, avoid being knocked over for longer, etc.






Also, on the subject of the Puff MU, here's some stuff on it I wrote a while ago. I dunno if it's still up to date.

 

[DoH]

Isn't fake ccing just di-ing down?

 

[Strong Badam]

fake CCing is when ASDI down + regular trajectory DI down leaves you grounded. real crouch canceling multiplies knockback by 2/3 (causing the usual ASDI down + regular trajectory DI down to leave you grounded for longer, as well as multiplying hitstun by 2/3).

 

[baka4moé]

You're not patient enough. Force Marth to approach you, but dont spam turnips like you did at the very beginning. Pull one, see how he reacts, then throw it at him when appropriate (if he approaches unsafely or doesnt approach at all).

I see you try to read with grabs a lot, I recommend not to do this. Grabbing Marth doesnt lead to much, and getting punished for it is really painful. If you get hit by a badly spaced Fsmash, wavedash OoS with a grab (ONLY if you can land it), downsmash, or dash attack.

Also, always recover high against Marth. Dont let the best edgegaurder in the game guard your edge.

All right, thanks for the advice alan! As for recovering high, does this mean even when all i have left is my parasol? I'm guessing im gonna have to take a few hits either way, and recovering high should hopefully yield less damage done? idk jus trying to find a way to think about it.

Also, if anyone else has any input that would be wonderful. Here's the link again for convenience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzkkJ6XvAzY&feature=related

 

[ConnorTheKid]

VaNz, I just saw you vs Jman and you vs Eggm.

you're sooooo good

 

[Rosedemon]

All right, thanks for the advice alan! As for recovering high, does this mean even when all i have left is my parasol? I'm guessing im gonna have to take a few hits either way, and recovering high should hopefully yield less damage done? idk jus trying to find a way to think about it.

Also, if anyone else has any input that would be wonderful. Here's the link again for convenience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzkkJ6XvAzY&feature=related

Yes, ESPECIALLY when you only have your parasol left. Im pretty sure Marth can hit you even if you sweetspot the ledge, and even if he cant, you're still in a prime edgegaurd position.

 

[ShroudedOne]

fake CCing is when ASDI down + regular trajectory DI down leaves you grounded. real crouch canceling multiplies knockback by 2/3 (causing the usual ASDI down + regular trajectory DI down to leave you grounded for longer, as well as multiplying hitstun by 2/3).

So what I got from that is that fake crouch cancelling doesn't multiply knockback and hitstun by 2/3, while real crouch cancelling does?

All right, thanks for the advice alan! As for recovering high, does this mean even when all i have left is my parasol? I'm guessing im gonna have to take a few hits either way, and recovering high should hopefully yield less damage done? idk jus trying to find a way to think about it.

Also, if anyone else has any input that would be wonderful. Here's the link again for convenience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzkkJ6XvAzY&feature=related

I can add a few things that I noticed, if you'd like. In the first match, you like airdodging in to get back to the stage. But that stopped working after a while, cause he picked up on it and started waiting for it. I guess that ties into what Rosedemon was saying about recovering high, but be versatile in your recovery regardless.

As an added note, I think our parasol extends our hurtbox. What makes me think this is that I get tipper f-smashed whenever I try to sweetspot the ledge. So sweetspotting is not reliable in this matchup...

I think you try to challenge Marth too much when your in the air above him. Remember, you are where he wants you in that position, and it's important to get down as soon as possible. It looks like he expects you to down smash when you spot dodge. When you're not in control, don't panic.

When you're near the ledge, don't roll. But you already know that.

Yeah, just to reinforce Alan's point: stay patient. When you were more patient, you were good. I think this matchup is kind of a watch-and-wait kind of thing. Sorry that those aren't really MU specifics, though... I hope this helps regardless.

 

[Veril]

Thanks Strongbad+KirbyKaze. I learned a new term :D

What I had meant by "partial CC" was really just a true CC without the ASDI down. Basically a crouch cancel where you hold diagonally down and to the side. The CC reduction of knockback still occurs, but characters are launched at earlier % than with CC straight down. I don't know the term for it so I called it a partial CC.

"adds 'Fake CC' to lexicon"

 

[Cia]

VaNz, I just saw you vs Jman and you vs Eggm.

you're sooooo good

thanks :D

-----

Veril - do u think you can figure out why the frozen turnip glitch happens?

 

[Palpi]

Doesn't magus know?

 

[Teczer0]

Magus has a few ideas but doesn't really know why. It's like trying to solve the Riemann hypothesis in smash

 

[Cia]

Magus has a few ideas but doesn't really know why. It's like trying to solve the Riemann hypothesis in smash

who makes comparisons like that??!

NERD

Spoiler

<3

Also.. It's come to my attention that A LOT of Peach players have absolutely no idea what to do on Brinstar. I thought it was pretty straight forward, but if that were the case, no one would be losing with her there (See Teco vs Dr.Peepee )

I don't have much time right now, but a bit later on (possibly tomorrow) I will explain the stage in detail and why it can be used efficiently by almost ALL characters and how it relates to Peach.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Frozen turnip glitch? I'm not sure I know what this is.

Also, isn't Vanz like, super duper good on Brinstar? Time to get my notepad out.

 

[Wake]

That would help a lot because I suck on Brinstar sooooo much. It's my worst stage. I'd rather go to RC.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I would love to counterpick Brinstar more often so I look forward to this.

 

[MacD]

how do people suck on brinstar, like wtf????

and at apex, i remember seeing the frozen turnip glitch on someones tv and i totally like freaked out. the guys on the tv didn't seem to care, not even the one playing peach.

i was very upset because they couldn't even appreciate what just happened

speaking of being very upset, my sets from yesterday....

LJDFJ;KLASDJ;LFSAJKDGJKLSDJGOISENFIPGNSDFGNOPSDFHGSEFUIGO2345ANERIOGFNAFOGPIASDFPIUASNDHPOUFASNGIU6544SG89OKHJGAENGPUAIDGN2345ADIUFGNADSPUFIGANSDUGFIOANSUG3IOFASNDGOIASNDFASIO;DNFSA;IODDSAY458FAN;DGF;ALSKDNFOA876ISDF456NAL;JKSDFOAISDNFASOIDFJASDIOFASJRDOFIASNDOIFAE'RGEJR0ORHJIWHQ298H43T08I4NHUYHNREOHRHR

 

[Quaz]

Everytime I CP brinstar my foe switches to falcon and beats me every single time =(

 

[john!]

you mean chris?

 

[DoH]

I remember the days when people let me cp brinstar. LOL

 

[Wake]

I'm sorry MacD, maybe I'll learn to be good on that level some day.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I just never play it. I much prefer FD or KJ64 for counterpicking, just cause I like them. But I'd like to learn Brinstar, cause it's almost a requirement for Peaches to know how to play there.

I really do want Mute City reinstated, though none of my friends (Falcos, Falcons, etc.) would agree...

 

[Rosedemon]

Brinstar isnt legal where I come from.

BUT STADIUM WONT BE EITHER NEXT WEEK!!!!

Suck it.

 

[Cia]

My Brinstar post is gonna be a bit larger than I thought. I have it saved on Word so that add to it little by little til it's finish. just bare with me. it'll be up soon.

 

[Wake]

Brinstar should be illegal and Mute City should be legal. Mute City is sooo much fun.

PS illegal??? Niiiice.

 

[john!]

bare with me. it'll be up soon.

the peach boards might interpret this the wrong way.

 

[Rosedemon]

Vanz is about to go harder than an erection son!

 

[Wake]

haha Don't be mad Vanz. Love us.