The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[[FBC] ESAM]

If a really bad player who used to place next to last started taking games off of everybody (until people started banning the stage vs him) i'm pretty sure it would get people's attention.

 

[T-block]

That's a flawed line of thinking, and is really dangerous because it takes some definitions for granted.

If the legal stage list were just Brinstar, Norfair and Rainbow Cruise, Ice Climbers would have a tough time. Then we look at Final Destination, test it out, and all of a sudden this ICs player is taking games off everyone. Does that make Final Destination uncompetitive?

The phrase "really bad player", to some extent, assumes a stage list, and we don't have an absolute ideal stage list from which to make comparisons. The fact that this player can now take games off players he could not before means only that he is better with the stage in question legal, nothing more. It says nothing about the competitive value of the stage. What we need to look at is how these victories were achieved, and whether it still required adequate skill to win.

 

[Life]

The MM thing still holds, however. Just do the whole set on Japes. Best of five, ~$5 per game, one player (the anti-Japes one) uses Falco/DK and the other player (the pro-Japes one) uses a character other than Falco/DK (and ideally not one something like Pika/DDD either, so they can't pull the bad-matchup card). If the anti-Japes player refuses, they're admitting that it is not a sure win for their character--otherwise, why would they turn down ~$25? (And make sure the whole set is recorded, of course.)

 

[Espy Rose]

You're assuming that everyone plays for money, IC.
As silly as this might sound, that's not entirely the case.

 

[Life]

Not seeing how

"not playing for the money"
=
"I won't take what I believe will be a free $25 for five games of Super Smash Bros"

Like, seriously, assuming all five matches run to time, that's $25 for 45 minutes (given a little extra time since the matches aren't one-after-another), which works out to over $30 an hour. I don't think most Smashers make that kind of money at their jobs, let alone at their hobby. (Unless you're M2K, lol.)

If some random dude walks up to you and says "Hey, I'll give you $1000 if you'll play my Ganon for an hour or so", who's going to respond "No thanks, I don't play for the money"? <_____<

And I go by Incom. Cool?

 

[Espy Rose]

Well, I'm just using myself as an example.
I don't like money matches, and in pretty much any scenario, I'll deny a money match simply because I'd rather do something else.

Hell, I think I've only had three or four since '08.

Besides, you're just taking it to levels of absurdity in that last example, IC.

 

[Kuro~]

WHere's this so called stage analysis thread stuff? Sounds cool and i'd be willing to get in on that.

 

[Black Mantis]

Yo, Lucas main who's been whining for the last three pages:

1) Grammar and spelling. Learn what these two things are. 2 =/= to or too.

2) More that 3 characters are playable, so there was no point in that hyperbole.

3) Suck it up. Your character has a weakness, get used to it if you want to play Brawl without using MK. Either learn the Lucas vs Marth MU better, get a secondary, or get a new main. The rule isn't going to change just because you don't like the fact your character has a crippling weakness.

wow lol such a horrible rebuttal

1.Grammar Nazi

2.Its More than

3.Just so you know Snake and Dk have one on both Ness and Lucas too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
lucas has no way out of it and neither does ness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQSCDP0-DWU
this was banned at mlg (at least the marth one was).

 

[Life]

Well, I'm just using myself as an example.
I don't like money matches, and in pretty much any scenario, I'll deny a money match simply because I'd rather do something else.

...Huh. K then.

Besides, you're just taking it to levels of absurdity in that last example, IC.

That's where the fun is, Espy Kasrani.

Kuro: Try the Stage Discussion Forums. Our social thread has a lot of cool stuff and our other threads have a lot of cool stuff. /redundancy

Black Mantis: Notice how your first two points contradict each other.

 

[WindMajor]

WHere's this so called stage analysis thread stuff? Sounds cool and i'd be willing to get in on that.

If you're talkinga bout the BBR project, it's not out yet. Stage Discussion forum will have to do for now.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

wow lol such a horrible rebuttal

1.Grammar Nazi

2.Its More than

3.Just so you know Snake and Dk have one on both Ness and Lucas too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
lucas has no way out of it and neither does ness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQSCDP0-DWU
this was banned at mlg (at least the marth one was).

1. Nah, not really. There is a difference between making an attempt at it, and being too lazy to even type out a word, which in turn makes you look about twelve.

2. Obvious typo is obvious.

3. That's nice. MLG was already explained, these tournaments aren't about a company generating money. Sucks to be Lucas: he's low tier for a reason.

 

[Nike.]

Nidtendofreak, find a ride to my house tmrw, I'm having a smashfest

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I really think the URS should include a list of acceptable codes for tournament play and eliminate use of the rest of them. Yeah, I'm saying textures/models/stages/music should not be allowed in tournament play.

 

[Tin Man]

I'm sure it was only the non cosmetic changes that were the issue. This was kinda discussed a couple dozen pages prior to this post.

 

[Ghostbone]

3.Just so you know Snake and Dk have one on both Ness and Lucas too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
lucas has no way out of it and neither does ness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQSCDP0-DWU
this was banned at mlg (at least the marth one was).

Are you even paying attention to what anyone is saying?
First of all unless you can provide evidence otherwise, only DK can actually infinite Ness and Lucas, other characters just have a walking chain-grab on them.
So banning the re-grab is like banning D3's chaingrab, it's stupid.

Secondly having a bad ground-release is a character flaw, just like having bad priority is a character flaw in the case of CF, we don't make rules so that CF gets free hits on characters, so why make rules to make up for Lucas having a bad ground-release?

Lucas and Ness are bad characters and shouldn't be catered for.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

It's not just the infinites; ganon can't get past blizzard. Like, at all. It's seen as almost as bad as sheik, for the most part.

Actually, Sheik is better than Ice Climbers. Ice Climbers is easily Ganon's worst MU. Whereas you might be able to get an edge on Sheik depending on the stage, ICs is still unwinnable on Norfair and Rainbow Cruise because it isn't the chaingrab that makes the MU so bad, though it certainly seals his fate.

Lucas and Ness are bad characters and shouldn't be catered for.

Flawed reasoning. This implies we should cater specifically to high and top tiers. Which we shouldn't. We shouldn't place any more weight on Metaknight than we should on Ganondorf, unless something a character can do is proven to be "do this for an auto-win" against the majority of the cast.

Ness and Lucas are not the majority of the cast, they are 2/39 characters, or just over 5% of the playable characters in the game.



Dedede can infinite DK, Mario, Luigi, and Samus while standing still; King Dedede, Bowser, and Wolf can be ledge infinited; additionally, Snake, Ivysaur, and Charizard can be buffer pivot grab infinited. This totals to 10/39 characters, or just over 1/4 of the playable characters in the game.

That said, all characters who can be ledge infinited can play well on the ledge against Dedede. Mario, Luigi, and Samus can not be reliably infinited until past 50%, and even higher against an opponent who can mash well, since you MUST pummel between down-throws. Dedede is a ditto and is silly. Bowser is a poor MU no matter how you look at this, and already has a walking CG against him. Wolf has a very good keepaway game and although it's a pretty bad MU it is still plenty winnable. Donkey Kong can still be walking chaingrabbed even with the infinite banned. The buffer pivot grab infinite has never been proven to be a problem (although at CoT5 I intend to prove otherwise).

This shows that minimal depth is removed from the game by allowing Dedede's infinites. Evey MU except for Luigi is still highly advantaged for Dedede even without his infinites, and Luigi is still a slight advantage.

 

[Ghostbone]

Flawed reasoning. This implies we should cater specifically to high and top tiers. Which we shouldn't. We shouldn't place any more weight on Metaknight than we should on Ganondorf, unless something a character can do is proven to be "do this for an auto-win" against the majority of the cast.

Ness and Lucas are not the majority of the cast, they are 2/39 characters, or just over 5% of the playable characters in the game.



Dedede can infinite DK, Mario, Luigi, and Samus while standing still; King Dedede, Bowser, and Wolf can be ledge infinited; additionally, Snake, Ivysaur, and Charizard can be buffer pivot grab infinited. This totals to 10/39 characters, or just over 1/4 of the playable characters in the game.

That said, all characters who can be ledge infinited can play well on the ledge against Dedede. Mario, Luigi, and Samus can not be reliably infinited until past 50%, and even higher against an opponent who can mash well, since you MUST pummel between down-throws. Dedede is a ditto and is silly. Bowser is a poor MU no matter how you look at this, and already has a walking CG against him. Wolf has a very good keepaway game and although it's a pretty bad MU it is still plenty winnable. Donkey Kong can still be walking chaingrabbed even with the infinite banned. The buffer pivot grab infinite has never been proven to be a problem (although at CoT5 I intend to prove otherwise).

This shows that minimal depth is removed from the game by allowing Dedede's infinites. Evey MU except for Luigi is still highly advantaged for Dedede even without his infinites, and Luigi is still a slight advantage.

I never meant to imply we should cater to high tiers either >.>
Is
"The ruleset shouldn't cater to Ness, Lucas, or any other character,"
better? lol

 

[Tesh]

You're assuming that everyone plays for money, IC.
As silly as this might sound, that's not entirely the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjdgdqJ3TSM

 

[Alphicans]

I really think the URS should include a list of acceptable codes for tournament play and eliminate use of the rest of them. Yeah, I'm saying textures/models/stages/music should not be allowed in tournament play.

I definitely agree with this. I am not sure about music, but textures should be banned completely. Music and infinite replay only imo.

 

[Tin Man]

Tags in replay are also useful.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Forcing save replays is borderline, but most top players forget to save them...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Relevant japes info. Twinkie is awesome.

If anyone has something to add to that discussion (especially video proof!), I'd really appreciate you doing so.

 

[BluePeachy100]

This ruleset is, and will always be terrible.

 

[WindMajor]

Don't get ahead of me BPC, I'm still looking into Japes.

 

[MK26]

on the contrary, mr. bluepeachy100

this ruleset is quite professionally crafted and, for the most part, exquisitely correct

there are simply a few points of contention worth noting, and some members of the community take license in noting said points quite...vocally, as it were

we do so because we love the community and wish to see it grow, not out of spite or because we wish to see the initiative fail

i suggest that you adopt the mindset that with a little bit of lobbying the ruleset can become, in the words of your founding fathers, a 'more perfect document' that will better serve the people it is meant to serve

 

[Life]

This ruleset is, and will always be terrible.

Did part of your post get cut off? I missed the line where you said something constructive and helped try to change this inevitability. Or at least posted what is wrong with it.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I laugh at the fact that water camping is a point of contention on Japes as opposed to just camping on-stage.

 

[WindMajor]

I laugh at the fact that water camping is a point of contention on Japes as opposed to just camping on-stage.

ESAM knows what's up.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Seeing as there is a global LGL for this rule-set, I doubt stage camping is a problem.

 

[Tesh]

He said on stage. I personally feel the broken flooring makes it very easy to just shield camp with no risk of being grabbed or punished hard. It takes quite a commitment to move from the main platform to a side platform to actually perform any mix ups.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Wario is amazing on Japes for several reasons (just throwing it out, this isn't a reason for it not being on the list atm). First off...he can camp. He will survive longer on this stage than anybody besides D3, he can air camp, and he is one of the few characters that can approach campers due to his air grab. Air grabs are dumb @_@

 

[Reizilla]

So about that Ktar forfeiting and coaching. Any discussion on adding more specific rules as far as punishments?

 

[Life]

Wario is amazing on Japes for several reasons (just throwing it out, this isn't a reason for it not being on the list atm). First off...he can camp. He will survive longer on this stage than anybody besides D3, he can air camp, and he is one of the few characters that can approach campers due to his air grab. Air grabs are dumb @_@

Bolding that so y'all know I read it. But for the sake of discussion I do want to respond by bringing up MK+Brinstar. If it's not as OP as MK on Brinstar, it's legal, right?

 

[Luigi player]

Wario is amazing on Japes for several reasons (just throwing it out, this isn't a reason for it not being on the list atm). First off...he can camp. He will survive longer on this stage than anybody besides D3, he can air camp, and he is one of the few characters that can approach campers due to his air grab. Air grabs are dumb @_@

dk survives the longest on japes

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

He just gets hit back off though...so yeah.

The only reason MK is good on Brinstar is becuase of constant sharking. If somebody separates the middle they can traverse back and forth by using the upper platform to their advantage/any projectiles they have (I know Pika can get MK at bay by wavebouncing thunders in the gap)

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Idk I think the acid would limit the sharking imo. The reason why mk is good on Brinstar is because SL kills at like 0% imo

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

No...it's clearly because of the sharking. 80% of the game he can stay in a highly advantageous position. 20% is when the acid is there. SL won't kill there with good DI until at least 80-90%.

 

[John12346]

Huh?? How does ASL kill at 40-50 by the edges of Smashville but 80-90 by the edges of Brinstar?

 

[Tesh]

ESAM is obviously pointing out that you shouldn't be at the edges like a big dummy. If he is sharking, you can at least go anywhere on stage you want to take the hit.

 

[Trent]

Why Pictochat should be legal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9gYGZyhJsQ