The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Espy Rose]

And one question. Some one already kind of mentioned this but does the HA stall still work if the opponent is outside a certain range, causing Sonic's HA to move downward?

No. No matter where the opponent is, as long as Sonic is hugging the ceiling prior to a homing attack, he will bounce off of the ceiling. The direction he goes is most likely influenced by the opponents position onstage, but that still requires testing.

Glad to see that HA legalization under the levels is being considered. It's really not as strong like so many people think. Good thing someone brought up HA to begin with, or it'd still be discriminated.

I also agree with everything Lux has said.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Even Ganon can reliably beat HA stall (except on FD, the stage is too large for him, but with Picto gone that would probably be his ban anyways). That should say something about it.

 

[Tin Man]

There seems to be a reasonable amount of stages where HA stall isn't even possible. Stages without a solid floor like brinstar, delfino (and when you land, you can't go under), and Halberd (same with the landing part). Castle Siege and Yoshi's also nulls this tactic but who beats Sonic on Yoshi's... Rainbow Cruise when your not on the boat.

Frigate but not really. Only the flip will expose Sonic.

Pictochat even didn't allow for this but not sure who beats sonic on Pictochat anyways.

Anyways that's 5 stages where HA stall is impossible out of 13 Legal stages. There might be more tho, iunno.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

If I am not dead from working my second job tonight and have the time to sift through which is about 16 pages worth of arguments about HA stalling (probably 20-something by the time I get home), I'll post my two cents later.

Sorry for the lack of response from me lately. I had a tournament to run Saturday, I was busy with personal stuff Sunday, worked 15 hours, Monday and was sick yesterday so I haven't had the time to stay on the boards for extended periods of time.

 

[Ghostbone]

While Marth has to stand in place, the chain grab moves him forward due to the distance Ness ground releases at.

I know one of them can hold away when ground released, which increases the distance enough that Marth has to dashgrab.
The trade-off of DIing away is he gets a Tippered down-smash iirc.

 

[BSP]

Let's try it again: Can people PLEASE stop bringing MK to stage discussion?

He being good has nothing to do with stages -read as it's not stage fault-. If he's the only problem with legality, if he breaks the stage or even the system, is not because the stage/system is broken, but because character is.
However, considering metagame does not overcentralize upon him, I wouldn't consider it deserves a ban -trying not to start a MK ban discussion-.

have people ever wondered what could happen if instead of making rules randomly trying to fit, we can build a ruleset globally good (for most characters), and then start limiting/changing certain issues with it?

Meta knight is everything...

but seriously, yeah, we shouldn't consider things he brings against the stage that much since he can break a lot of places.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

ummm..... i don't know what game you all are playing but the everything we do in this game from the rules we make to the stages we pick to limits we set to the tier list we have is all heavily influenced by metaknight. i mean is all of it 100% based solely on metaknight, absolutely not. however his influence always has and always will have a powerful influence on everything that is done. no matter how much you try to take him out of consideration, i guarantee that people who say they won't take him into consideration will always have him in mind when they make a decision. it's brawl, that's how it works

 

[ぱみゅ]

ummm..... i don't know what game you all are playing but the everything we do in this game from the rules we make to the stages we pick to limits we set to the tier list we have is all heavily influenced by metaknight. i mean is all of it 100% based solely on metaknight, absolutely not. however his influence always has and always will have a powerful influence on everything that is done. no matter how much you try to take him out of consideration, i guarantee that people who say they won't take him into consideration will always have him in mind when they make a decision. it's brawl, that's how it works

I've been playing SUPER SMASH BROTHERS: BRAWL, the game straight from the box.
I've made a criteria based on the whole game and not the standarized game most people have been on. So, stages has their own behavior, sometimes they're interactive with players' actions sometimes are not, but all of them treat every character JUST THE SAME WAY.

Basically my instance is: stages are or are not suited for comtetitive play because of themselves, only certain actions or layouts are banworthy. Characters shouldn't be involved with stage legalization.


Yet, -almost- everyone else seems to base their stance on standards, benefits and abuses...
When two different schools collide, there's no way to get a agreement.

 

[Nike.]

I know one of them can hold away when ground released, which increases the distance enough that Marth has to dashgrab.
The trade-off of DIing away is he gets a Tippered down-smash iirc.

It's not tippered.

 

[Tin Man]

japes only benefits fox for camping purposes. his killing sucks there though.

Japes is good for fox against other characters that rely on vertical kill power. His Usmash apparently multiplies in knock back as the damage of the opponent gets higher, while others just add in knock back.

ummm..... i don't know what game you all are playing but the everything we do in this game from the rules we make to the stages we pick to limits we set to the tier list we have is all heavily influenced by metaknight. i mean is all of it 100% based solely on metaknight, absolutely not. however his influence always has and always will have a powerful influence on everything that is done. no matter how much you try to take him out of consideration, i guarantee that people who say they won't take him into consideration will always have him in mind when they make a decision. it's brawl, that's how it works

There are some decisions that are not influenced at all by the characters in this game. Stages is one.

 

[KoozyK]

soooo unity ruleset effed me over saturday. someone cp'd marth against my lucas. good job.
way to make 3 chars. playable

 

[Tesh]

Norfair is the best stage for:
-Jiggs
-Link
-Ganon
...Seriously, that's 3 of the 4 worst chars in the game.

just wanted to point out that Ganondorf sucks on Norfair. He has a couple of cool gimmicks, but its nothing compared to how big the stage is and how he has almost 0 chance of catching ANYONE on this stage. He is actually much better on smaller stages that force you to be near him, like Brinstar or Battlefield.

soooo unity ruleset effed me over saturday. someone cp'd marth against my lucas. good job.
way to make 3 chars. playable

Sorry bro, should have gone metaknight.

 

[KoozyK]

Sorry bro, should have gone metaknight.

.....i hope u were joking.

 

[WindMajor]

You should've gone not-Lucas.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

way to make 3 chars. playable

When I read this, I immediately thought:

.....i hope u were joking.

How ironic.


I'm going to bed now. I'll post again in the morning. I don't have the attention span after working 2 jobs again to post about the other argument.

 

[KoozyK]

You should've gone not-Lucas.

soooo lets seee. ummm if ur main had a gr infinite onem u wouldnt be pissed that ur opponet abused that ****?

When I read this, I immediately thought:



How ironic.
.

.....1st off. if ur sig and brawl char. main thing is correct. u main d3. sooo this rule makes u a beast as it is. all u have to do against and dk is just stand there and grab......really. a ****ing child that could do that **** it takes skill out of the game.

 

[T-block]

Koozy, stop whining.

Lucas is not entitled to anything. He gets wrecked by one grab from Marth - too bad. Why do you think he should be arbitrarily buffed just because the technique that hurts him takes no skill? This ruleset does not make Lucas "unplayable". He was always "unplayable", and this ruleset does nothing to change that.

 

[Tesh]

Honestly, Marth and Yoshi's grab releases on Squirtle should have been banned as well. Kind of ***** them. Alot of grab release stuff *****. Alot of stuff ***** alot of characters in alot of ways. Banning it just because it was a grab is stupid. Do you really think it takes alot of skill to beat a Ganondorf with Metaknight? You picked a character you KNEW had those weaknesses and you payed the price.

 

[WindMajor]

soooo lets seee. ummm if ur main had a gr infinite onem u wouldnt be pissed that ur opponet abused that ****?

I would be mad at myself because I picked Lucas of all characters against Marth and didn't switch out.

Remember, as competitive players, we're supposed to be good at this game within all aspects of gameplay, which includes learning your basic techniques, learning stages, and learning characters. We shouldn't be placing rules to make the game easier for anyone. That's the challenge. The limit is what's on the disc. If you want to only use Lucas, then that's fine by me, but Lucas isn't perfect. He has flaws, and in a competitive environment, people ARE going to abuse those flaws, which means that you have to work hard and find a way around his character flaws within the realms of the disc to stay on top. If you don't have a plan around it (pick another character would be one of them), then get wrecked by your character's flaws. You as a competitive player should have known better and should have been prepared with a pocket main to fight Marth, instead of complaining about rules that you agreed to when you entered the tournament so the game could be easier for you.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I was about to turn this laptop off but I'll engage you before I go to bed.

.....1st off. if ur sig and brawl char. main thing is correct. u main d3. sooo this rule makes u a beast as it is.

Yes, I main King Dedede and I am proud of it. However, I don't advocate the infinite nor was I on this committee when this rule was revived.

And this rule makes my character a beast? No, I'm sorry that is incorrect. That rule DOES give me a a heavy advantage against characters that my character already beats, minus Luigi...and the DDD ditto *shudders*

sooo this rule makes u a beast as it is. all u have to do against and dk is just stand there and grab

So what you're saying is the Donkey Kong player is going to float in my arms and allow me to infinite him because of that rule. Okay that's definitely how it works. (Yes, that was sarcasm btw)

really. a ****ing child that could do that **** it takes skill out of the game.

This is the most ignorant part of your post. Yes, the level of technical ability needed to perform this technique is lower than most. But I would REALLY like to know how, this one infinite that works on 6 characters in the game "takes skill" out of the game.

PLEASE refrain from making statements like this. I understand that losing to a Marth because of the infinite would be frustrating. I won't argue that. But Lucas is low tier character for reasons outside of that infinite. Select a secondary and move on. It's that simple.

Lucas is not entitled to anything. He gets wrecked by one grab from Marth - too bad. Why do you think he should be arbitrarily buffed just because the technique that hurts him takes no skill? This ruleset does not make Lucas "unplayable". He was always "unplayable", and this ruleset does nothing to change that.

+ 1 for this statement.

 

[KoozyK]

t-block, ill whine. But not just because it lucas because other chars. are getting ***** too becuase of this

1. with mlg rules we actually kinda stood a chance. if u called them over the refs would call any gr infininte on nes or lucas illegal. and the dk on was effing stated.

2. i wasnt just talking about lucas. DKs a playable char.....so that argument was ****

3. Everyone seems to think this is a fair ruleset because they main Characters that ARE NOT EFFECTED BY IT.

4. lucas isnt getting buffed. that mu is still ****ing hard. even when the person is using dk, who also has the gr on ness and lucas(o wait i can just go D3 and make it fair i guess.) but GR just turns the mu to impossible.

there are copious reason to why allowing infinites to be legal should not be allowed.

And this rule makes my character a beast? No, I'm sorry that is incorrect. That rule DOES give me a a heavy advantage against characters that my character already beats, minus Luigi...and the DDD ditto *shudders*
okay i was too vague and need to rephase. if the person that has the gr intends to use it, the mu changes drastically


So what you're saying is the Donkey Kong player is going to float in my arms and allow me to infinite him because of that rule. Okay that's definitely how it works. (Yes, that was sarcasm btw)
no ignorance, its kinda impossible to not get grabbed all match



This is the most ignorant part of your post. Yes, the level of technical ability needed to perform this technique is lower than most. But I would REALLY like to know how, this one infinite that works on 6 characters in the game "takes skill" out of the game.

its not something u have 2 practice. u grab pummple let go, grab pummle let go. where does the skill come in?

 

[WindMajor]

3. Everyone seems to think this is a fair ruleset because they main Characters that ARE NOT EFFECTED BY IT.

This ruleset still has Metaknight in it, which means that Toon Link still gets screwed over by the most popular character in the game. As a competitive player, I don't sidestep the problem, I fight it.

 

[T-block]

lol...your mindset is so selfish it's clouding your logic.

1) MLG banned infinites, but it's only DK that has a grab release infinite on Lucas. The whole situation was handled messily, but I think in the end the rules had no mention of the Lucas-Marth at all. In any case, a big reason behind banning infinites was to make the game more exciting for the spectator, which is understandable because they have a financial interest in that. Unity has no such motivation.

2) I would say the same thing to a DK main. He's not entitled to anything either - if he loses a stock to Dedede's grab, so be it.

3) The ruleset affects all characters no matter what it is. You seem to have this idea of a "proper" ruleset in your head and are comparing this ruleset to that. Realize that no such ruleset exists. If the Marth-Lucas grab release were banned, I could easily say Marth would then be affected negatively by that ruleset.

4) Going from very very hard to very hard is still a buff.

Skill is irrelevant. Are you okay with Ice Climbers grabs then? What about Diddy Kong's single banana lock? These things can be done easily and consistently by anyone who puts in the time to practice. Why does it matter how hard it is? It doesn't make any difference from the victim's perspective - it just makes the player feel better about it.

 

[Tin Man]

This is not directed at anyone specifically, just a general statement.

Is it really fair to tell someone to just use a better character? It seems to me like learning the match up is a far superior statement.

"Pick up a better character" has been an argument that is used in here quite often. I'm wondering why certain people think this is the answer.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

4. lucas isnt getting buffed. that mu is still ****ing hard. even when the person is using dk, who also has the gr on ness and lucas(o wait i can just go D3 and make it fair i guess.) but GR just turns the mu to impossible.

actually you should second DDD, he beats both marth and dk. there, your problems are solved.

 

[stingers]

there is a difference between diddy kong's single nanner lock and IC infinites, and GR infinites on ness and lucas. for the former, there is a PRERESIQUITE that needs to be completed for the infinite to be completed - for diddy they need to have a banana, and for IC they need to have nana. these can both be reasonably stopped by the opponent, which is why it is not a huge issue.

for GR infinites/DDD dthrow infinites, the only thing you need to do is get a grab, and there is no mechanic in the game that can remove the ability to grab from your opponent. this is what makes it broken/overcentralizing imo, so I really dont think they should be legal =/

 

[Blacknight99923]

I saw sonics homing attack brought up

100% fact. Falco can shoot a laser while falling and still recover, I tested this myself.

Yes on FD

 

[WindMajor]

there is a difference between diddy kong's single nanner lock and IC infinites, and GR infinites on ness and lucas. for the former, there is a PRERESIQUITE that needs to be completed for the infinite to be completed - for diddy they need to have a banana, and for IC they need to have nana. these can both be reasonably stopped by the opponent, which is why it is not a huge issue.

for GR infinites/DDD dthrow infinites, the only thing you need to do is get a grab, and there is no mechanic in the game that can remove the ability to grab from your opponent. this is what makes it broken/overcentralizing imo, so I really dont think they should be legal =/

If ICs are allowed to land one grab and get the kill, why shouldn't Dedede be allowed to land one grab and get the kill?

It's basically the same thing, one grab = one stock. Same cause, same effect. There's no reason throw a line of bias between them and say one is acceptable and one is not. Just cause one is easier than the other doesn't mean anything.

This is not directed at anyone specifically, just a general statement.

Is it really fair to tell someone to just use a better character? It seems to me like learning the match up is a far superior statement.

"Pick up a better character" has been an argument that is used in here quite often. I'm wondering why certain people think this is the answer.

The game allows us to, and if we want to become the best at this game, there's no reason why we should limit ourselves to one character. Every character has their flaws, and some matchups allow for those flaws to be exploited more than others. If for example, Lucas can't do anything because Marth has the infinite, well maybe picking Lucas isn't the smartest decision you could make. If you want to win, the obvious choice would be to make decisions that maximize your probability of winning, and that isn't limited to gameplay. Decisions start at the character select screen, and all characters are available to select.

If one doesn't want to pick a better character to avoid having his flaws exploited, then he shouldn't be complaining. The options are there, he's just not using them.

 

[stingers]

twinkie, u literally ignored everything I said in my post lol. I'll respond when u go back and read it again, then respond to what I actually said.

 

[Tesh]

I saw sonics homing attack brought up

100% fact. Falco can shoot a laser while falling and still recover, I tested this myself.

Yes on FD

People knew this, which is why everyone refered to Sonic getting a stock lead then camping.

 

[T-block]

stingers, setups are setups. How do we decide where to draw the arbitrary line between "too easy" and "hard enough of a setup to be allowed"?

The prerequisite to DK's infinite on Lucas is to land a grab. You'll say this is too easy, so I'll ask how easy is too easy?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC, we can't have transparency because all threads will then be scrutinizing what we are doing. Let's say we are talking about Distant Planet. Somebody will then make a thread either here or in stage discussion saying why we are wrong/bashing us, which will happen REGARDLESS of the stance we are on in anything (Because there are always nay-sayers)

That's kind of the idea. If you are wrong, the people bashing you will have a point. If you aren't they can be ignored.

You remember the reasoning that Chibo brought to the table that explained why he thought that 9-starter was a waste of time? Imagine if everyone in the BBRRC went along with that reasoning, and nobody thought it was necessary to explain why. It would've been a catastrophe; a catastrophe caused entirely by misinformation and ridiculously bad logic.

Like I said. If the committee consisted of Inui, Jebus, and Grim Tuesday, wouldn't you be scared of what happened behind closed doors? Not to hate on those three, but come on-I've seen the "logic" sometimes spewed by them.

Now, it's not quite that bad, but it's always a danger. Things that aren't open to scrutiny by an intelligent, engaged community are almost always going to be worse-off than those that are in the same way the government monopolies are.

I understand that you guys don't want to see constant criticism from ****, Jane, and Derpo over the things in the ruleset, but that's a small price to pay IMO.

BPC, I do think you're rigid and sometimes "rage-possessed". It doesn't make me think of of you in a negative way however. You're just passionate about what you believe in and I can respect that. However what you need to realize is that we ARE paying attention to these things..EVERYTHING. That's why there's 12 of us. In fact are discussing several stages for a possible Pictochat replacement. We are discussing the possibility of a 7 stage starter system as well. We have multiple discussions every single day about every aspect of the ruleset. ( I can't tell you specifics/quote anyone but I can at least let you we ARE discussing this stuff now) You just need to give us time. Its unrealistic to believe that changes that affect quite literally the entire country, will manifest overnight. We just made changes and we'll continue to do so. Just be patient

This latest update just has us (the stages forum) scared ****less.


Remember back when the MLG stagelist was announced? Remember how it was called out by most as stupid? "OMG NORFAIR! OMG GG!"

Then the tournament came around and nothing bad happened.

This is the kind of experimentation the community has always needed more of. We're so ****ing quick to slap a ban on anything we find even remotely objectionable when it comes to stages, and after a stage is banned, it's not getting unbanned.

Now, look at the stagelist right now. Does it seem like a legitimate stagelist? Almost anyone on the east coast would probably say "Yes". Because it is the average AN ruleset. I'm scared ****less that a number of the BBRRC (Bizkit, Chibo, Xyro?) will look at this and say, "Hey, we're good, this is legit, let's leave it here. For as long as possible.". Maybe this fear is unjustified. But somehow I don't think so. Like, picto was the last big complaint. Not replacing it with something is not a good sign. I'm glad you guys are still discussing it though.

Also, please don't play the victim role here. You may not have the best reputation with Chibo or ESAM but that's between you guys. If you, Overswarm/anyone from your "rage-posse" (lol...) ever want to get on Skype and talk to me personally , I invite you to. I consider all angles. I'm the one who proposed your "Controversial Stages Side Event" to the group and some members loved the idea.

I don't know why I do that tbh, I don't even live in the states.

 

[stingers]

stingers, setups are setups. How do we decide where to draw the arbitrary line between "too easy" and "hard enough of a setup to be allowed"?

The prerequisite to DK's infinite on Lucas is to land a grab. You'll say this is too easy, so I'll ask how easy is too easy?

...its not a question of easiness. its a question of whether there is a way to stop it from happening. if you kill nana, you have eliminated the possibility of you getting infinited for that stock. if you throw a banana offstage, you have eliminated the possibility of you getting infinited by that banana. but there is no way to remove the ability of a marth or DK to GR infinite ness/lucas, or a way to remove the ability for DDD to dthrow infinite dk/mario/etc. there is no arbitrary line being drawn, unless you want to argue that the line between "stoppable" and "unstoppable" is too arbitrary for you, but if that was the logic used then it's a miracle any rules have ever been made in the first place.

 

[WindMajor]

there is a difference between diddy kong's single nanner lock and IC infinites, and GR infinites on ness and lucas. for the former, there is a PRERESIQUITE that needs to be completed for the infinite to be completed

(...)

this is what makes it broken/overcentralizing imo, so I really dont think they should be legal =/

You were arguing prerequisites, and how the lack of prerequisites turns things from "acceptable" to "broken/over-centralizing", right? If so, then I already answered it.

Just cause one is easier than the other doesn't mean anything.

And when I say easier, I include your argument on setups/prerequisites. Just because one is easier to setup for doesn't mean anything when the cause and effect are exactly the same.

If I'm not getting it right, then please re-write your argument as clear as possible so I can respond to it.


Edit: Ninja'd. That's much clearer. Will respond in just a sec.

...its not a question of easiness. its a question of whether there is a way to stop it from happening. if you kill nana, you have eliminated the possibility of you getting infinited for that stock. if you throw a banana offstage, you have eliminated the possibility of you getting infinited by that banana. but there is no way to remove the ability of a marth or DK to GR infinite ness/lucas, or a way to remove the ability for DDD to dthrow infinite dk/mario/etc. there is no arbitrary line being drawn, unless you want to argue that the line between "stoppable" and "unstoppable" is too arbitrary for you, but if that was the logic used then it's a miracle any rules have ever been made in the first place.

Tell you the truth, I'm just simply not convinced. Whether it can be stopped temporarily or not during gameplay doesn't really change things enough for me. It's still the same cause and effect, you still have to work to avoid it in gameplay whether it be at all times or not, and most importantly, the whole situation can be avoided at the character/stage selection screen.

 

[KoozyK]

lol...your mindset is clouding your logic. fixed
no such thing as true altruism imo

okay not annoyed anymore. i can think clearly.

after reading what stingers wrote i had hindsight bias.

i wasnt saying all infinites should be banned, it takes time to learn how to chain grab verychar in the game with ic's and it also takes time to learn the single nana lock with diddy. gr takes no time what so ever.

the setups/prerequisites....stingers said exactly what needs to be said about that.
Edit: actually ic's and diddy can both trip out of those infinites. so u still have some chance of living. a standing infinite u cant trip

im not sure if im even right about this so im not arguing this, but this ruleset was made by the BBR, they wont even allow a lucas main in there. (that was a selfish statement)

Tell you the truth, I'm just simply not convinced. Whether it can be stopped temporarily or not during gameplay doesn't really change things enough for me. It's still the same cause and effect, you still have to work to avoid it in gameplay whether it be at all times or not, and most importantly, the whole situation can be avoided at the character/stage selection screen.

can u honestly say uve never been grabbed in a match?

 

[stingers]

alright, well until someone points out something wrong with my logic, i officially decree that GR infinites and DDD's infinites are banned until further notice.

officially.

ur welcome kris

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

too bad you don't got that kind of power. then people would acknowledge rob

 

[WindMajor]

can u honestly say uve never been grabbed in a match?

I don't think there has ever been a match in which I haven't been grabbed. Then again, that's not the point.

 

[stingers]

too bad you don't got that kind of power. then people would acknowledge rob

i dont main rob anymore anyway.
peach (and diddy) now =]

 

[T-block]

I can say don't get grabbed in the same way you can say don't get into a position where Diddy can infinite you. What's the difference? It's harder to not get grabbed, sure.

Why are you saying "stoppable/unstoppable"?

Are you going to argue that it's completely impossible to not get grabbed?
Are you going to argue that it's completely possible to avoid Diddy's infinite?

I don't see how you can argue both at the same time.