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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

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Falco is pretty overrated, he's not an S tier character, in the least.
Like he could still be top 7 in the game, but he isn't in the same tier as MK, by a long shot.

Counters coming out of his every orafice.
Describe those counters. Falco's matches up are pretty much even across the board. He hardly hard counters anyone or gets hard countered. The only hard counter he has is the ICs (70:30). The people that soft countered him were pretty much overrated themselves. Kirby and G&W isn't seen as a (65:35) anymore. It's more seen as a 60:40 or 55:45. There is roughly 2-3 more people that soft counter him at 60:40 at most. All the rest of the match-ups falco has are even (55:45/50:50/45:50) or Falco soft counters a some.

The other things Falco has is the few faults he has. The only major problems he has are killing people and recovery. But he makes up for that with excellent form of being able to combat various challenges presented with him such as a transistion from offensive to defensive. He also has a CG against pretty much everyone that can be applied to a possible CG > death or CG > 60%-70% from there you only need 50%-60% more on most people to get them into KO range. And adding 50% from laser set-ups isn't too difficult.

You mentioned you don't see Falco as S tier material, but top 7. That pretty much means he would be top of A tier, but how does he not fit in with the abilities that the rest have.
 

Turbo Ether

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Falco is easily top 5. The only character beneath him that is arguably better, is Diddy. If anything, Falco is underrated. He has extremely lackluster representation, and for some reason, a ton of people thought he was going to drop more than he did.
 

Red Arremer

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Falco is easily top 5. The only character beneath him that is arguably better, is Diddy. If anything, Falco is underrated. He has extremely lackluster representation, and for some reason, a ton of people thought he was going to drop more than he did.
You're a smart man. I like you. :3
 

Gindler

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In simple terms,
Yoshi is still a character that is fought by "deal with this".
Rather than "deal with those".

i.e. singular vs plural.

Meta Knight vs Yoshi "deal with the grab".
Instead of "deal with the grab, deal with the great aerial mobility, deal with the projectile that cuts down these options..."
And yes, I'm saying that yoshi's bases with the mobility and projectile aren't considered as viable or in-depth options.

Yoshi fails to be a great character by design flaws.
Samus was bad in Smash 64 and now in Brawl. However Samus has pretty good character design, people can understand this... she just sucks.

Samus should have been the "more aerial based" Snake. Or actually, Snake should have been the more ground based Samus. They have noticable comparisons in design quirks, but it's obvious to see how BROKEN Snake's options are.

Kind of like Marth and Meta Knight. They follow a character design of a fast swordsman.
However they differ with
MK has transcended "attacks", whilst Marth has transcended "specials"
MK has low aerial mobility, whilst Marth has one of the better ones.
Marth has a bad dash grab, but great pivot grab - MK has a great (close to the best) dash attack but a pretty subpar pivot grab (including boosts)
Marth has the options of approaching with transcended priority in match ups, Meta Knight does not.
Marth has better vertical killing ability, whilst MK has better horizontal killing ability (Yes I'm aware Tipper fsmash is more powerful than all of mk's ****, that isn't killing ability!).
I can 'presume' that Marth was made to be stronger in the air, whilst MK being stronger on the ground (but look how 5 jumps, gliding, faster but weaker aerials, and transcended priority [hence wil always hit through peoples specials] is1).

I'm prone to argue that Marth has a better character design than Meta Knight. But we all know how ridiculous MK's options are (who cares about transcended priority, TORNADO!) Who cares about aerial mobility, my sh fair auto cancels and times itself so I'm on the ground with barely any 'lag time' between when the hitbox is over or not! Who cares about your priority, my sword is more disjointed than any other fast swordsman, and it's also transcended so I will ALWAYS WIN unless you outrange me!

Things like that are base choices...
I don't understand...we have to out range MK to beat him? What about wario he has nothing that can outrange wario so it should be a 0:100. Unless you're talking about MK vs Marth, in which point he doesn't always have to outrange MK either to win.
 

Dark.Pch

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Falco is easily top 5. The only character beneath him that is arguably better, is Diddy. If anything, Falco is underrated. He has extremely lackluster representation, and for some reason, a ton of people thought he was going to drop more than he did.
That's how I feel. Thus I asked my question to see why people would think he is overratted.
 

da K.I.D.

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Describe those counters. Falco's matches up are pretty much even across the board. He hardly hard counters anyone or gets hard countered.
What?
falco has some of the easiest matchups in the game
characters that get hard countered by falco.
Ganon
Link
CF
Ness
Lucas
Ivysaur
Ike
Charisard?
Wolf
KING DEDEDE
 

Red Arremer

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I don't understand...we have to out range MK to beat him? What about wario he has nothing that can outrange wario so it should be a 0:100. Unless you're talking about MK vs Marth, in which point he doesn't always have to outrange MK either to win.
I think you don't understand what he means.

He means that Yoshi has severe flaws that outweigh his merits. He was drawing the line to Marth in comparison to Meta Knight to show how their design was supposed to give them a certain playstyle, but Meta Knight outweighing his disadvantages with so many good points that these weaknesses are moot. That has nothing to do with the Meta Knight vs. Marth matchup per se.

Edit:
@da KID:
Bowser is 60:40 Falco's advantage.
 
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What?
falco has some of the easiest matchups in the game
characters that get hard countered by falco.
Ganon
Link
CF
Ness
Lucas
Ivysaur
Ike
Bowser?
Charisard?
Wolf
KING DEDEDE
Bowers and wolf are not hard counters. At least the last time the Falco boards discussed the match up on Wolf. Bowser has decent options against Falco and edgeguards him like crazy (fire breath > Falco's recovery). For Wolf, people thought that the match up was fairly even because they thought that Wolf had an easier time killing and a better ground game. But things sort of depended upon the the CG. With it Falco could get a good lead percent wise maybe even KO.

DDD and Ike are the only ones I know for sure that are hard counters. Chaizard, Lucas and Ness I believe were soft counters. We just determined that Lucas was 60:40 falco's favor. Ness I am unsure of. And Charizard I am also unsure about, but I think it's a soft counter for Charizard can beat falco's recovery like bowser can with the fire breath thing, he has excellet range on tilts, and takes for every to kill. Plus, can one really include Charizard as a solo counter as he is part of PT, you sort of have to look at all three. Ganon, Link and CF I think are hardly even worth mentioning. They pretty much get hard countered by a ton of people. So if one excludes Ganon, Link and CF, Falco still has very few hard counters against people.
 

Red Arremer

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Bowser's Fire > Charizard's Fire. As far as I remember, Charizard's Fire doesn't go through Phantasm, Bowser's does tho.
 
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Bowser's Fire > Charizard's Fire. As far as I remember, Charizard's Fire doesn't go through Phantasm, Bowser's does tho.
Depends on what part of phantasm the flames hit. Phantasm has 3 points at which falco can get hit by. The beginning where the start up is, middle and end. And it's only a single frame between beginning to middle, and another frame from middle to end. The rest of it is purely hitbox. And if I recall, the hitbox is always in behind of Falco. But I do think that's Bowser's flames are better than Charizards because it has a bigger hitbox, and doesn't diminish in size nearly as quickly.
 

Vermy

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Bowser's Fire > Charizard's Fire. As far as I remember, Charizard's Fire doesn't go through Phantasm, Bowser's does tho.
Bowser's fire is "wider" and has more priority, while Charizard's has a little more range to it.
 

Ryusuta

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Hope you guys don't jump on me for answering this post. I just sort of HAVE to... ^^;

You quoted me saying that I had already listed them. /hence you could have just looked up my previous post where I LISTED them.
If they're really so obvious to you, you shouldn't mind restating them for the benefit of clarifying your points.

However, since I'm in a good mood, quickly: so that the SBR doesn't have to spend time answering every noob who thinks their opinion matters
They don't HAVE to, but it would better the community as a whole and give them more credibility if they did.

so that the SBR is less influenced by the fanboyism of said noobs
If they can't hear contrasting opinions while still forming their own conclusions, they shouldn't be in the position they're in. This isn't even an issue worth BRIEFLY considering.

and finally because if the SBR has all characters represented (like it should) then it's up to that character's rep(s) to have a good enough knowledge of their character to call someone else out for their mistakes.
The representatives INSIDE of SBRB? How does THAT help anything? I sure as hell wouldn't trust some of the character reps in there to portray the characters they use most often accurately. And I don't know any major reps for a handful of characters IN the SBRB.

If you mean character reps OUTSIDE of SBRB, then they would need the forum to be viewable so those mistakes CAN be corrected.

The legions shouldn't be necessary to correct people, and only serve to slow the process down.
Bull****. There is nothing to lose from getting more perspective and everything to lose from getting as little perspective as possible.

So just because it happens means we invite it to happen?
In a word, yes. Or more accurately, we stop pretending like arbitrarily hiding one set of discussions is going to have any influence over this fact whatsoever. That's like dismantling a gun and expecting it to lower the amount of murders that take place in your town. It's absurd.

However, you yourself agreed that this tier list is pretty **** accurate, and considering there are infinite conflicting opinions, it's pretty cool that we go something that most people agree is a good list.
It's true. I think this list was very good. I also think that their previous two lists were absolute garbage. Should I suddenly consider them to be authoritative because they finally happened upon a reasonably sensible conclusion after three tries? And even if I did, it still doesn't answer why I shouldn't have some knowledge of how their authoritative consensus was reached.

Groups can and do oversee themselves, it's just not common (and I agree that it proly shouldn't be allowed, but hey if it works...).
It DOESN'T work.

The expectation to do the right thing is what keeps them in line and pushes them to "do the right thing". Think: Supreme Court.

What's the only counter to a Supreme Court (once the Justices are on it that is)? Oh that's right. If the President refuses to enforce their verdict, invalidating their opinions. Oh hey, why don't YOU try that if you don't like the way they run their ship.
Are you really asking that, or are you being facetious? I just want to know how hard I should facepalm from that question.

Let's look at this again, at a glance.

Keeping SBRB secret does the following...

-Creates disputable results
-Cultivates ignorance
-Encourages a caste system of social status
-Allows for no oversights
-Creates dubious membership selection processes
-Allows its members to make any claim they'd like without any accountability
-Allows flawed assumptions and conclusions to go unchecked

Keeping SBRB secret does not do any of the following...

-Prevent any "stupid" arguments from taking place about stages/characters/rules/etc.
-Create a more balanced consensus than would otherwise be achieved
-Help the community in any way, shape, or form

We now return you to our regularly-scheduled programming.
 

Fatmanonice

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I agree with the above. I too think the SBR keeping the discussions about character placement a secret kind of hurts everyone because matchups are then decided by the individual boards and, unfortunately, that's when character bias comes into play and people pretty much form their opinions around the views of like 2-3 of the top posters on each board. The whole conversation doesn't need to be posted, just a summary of the main points.

For example, I still can't put my finger on why Wario rose so much. Have things really gotten that much better for him? Are Marth and King Dedede no longer big threats? Surely a lot of the grab releases issues haven't simply disappeared and it was recently discovered that Sheik has an infinite on Wario, making it now 9 characters who can do the same. I've been following his tournament results and they don't seem to have drastically improved since the beginning of this year so, like I said, I'm kind of in the dark with all this.

Personally, I hate feeling like I have to change my opinion everytime the tier list is changed which is why I'd honestly like to know WHY it has changed. How much is weighted on match ups and how much is weighted purely on tournament results? When you consider this, we're all kind of in the dark. Really, when I'm talking about matchups, I'd like to be up to date and not feel like I'm unintentionally stuck in the past.
 

mountain_tiger

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Bowser's Fire > Charizard's Fire. As far as I remember, Charizard's Fire doesn't go through Phantasm, Bowser's does tho.
Really? Well, I learnt something new today.

But yeah, Falco's matchups are far from even across the board. He hard counters most everyone E Tier and below, as well as a lot of C and D Tier characters too. Likewise, he also gets hard countered by Kirby, Ice Climbers and Mr. Game and Watch, which matters more because you see a lot more of them in tourneys. If you're looking for someone with even matchups across the board, then check out Peach.
 

Red Arremer

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@FMOI:
Wario is an extremely versatile and good character. His tournament rankings haven't skyrocketed, but the people representing him in tournaments (Reflex, DMG, Fiction and PhantomX, mainly) constantly place high and well, showing that he is capable of winning.

The Grab Releases are not that much of a problem because grabbing a Wario is extremely hard to pull off, making this an annoyance, nothing more. He has no real hard counters, as well, only a few slightly disadvantaged matchups. The Sheik thing, by the way, was discovered after the tier list was released, so using it as an argument is moot and "unfair", if you know what I mean with it. Not to mention it's pretty situational in any case.

He is one of the heavier characters in the game, has incredibly good momentum cancel as well as an amazing recovery, making him one of the longest living opponents in the whole game. He has good killing moves and his offstage game is great. His aerial mobility combined with his floatiness and strong aerial moves make him easily control the air.

Wario has the tools to beat even his harder matchups with a bit of smartness and patience. His only real downsides are a lack of range and a few grab releases, which a good Wario usually can avoid without much trouble. Wario is one of those characters that can play the "Don't get grabbed" card the best.

Oh, sorry, I actually posted something useful. My bad. *goes back to sipping brandy*
 

Shaya

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I don't understand...we have to out range MK to beat him? What about wario he has nothing that can outrange wario so it should be a 0:100. Unless you're talking about MK vs Marth, in which point he doesn't always have to outrange MK either to win.
1. Yeah, you have to outrange Meta Knight to have a form of advantage.
As Meta Knight's priority/sword give him the form of an amazing defensive wall.

2. Wario does not have range, but he does have something over Meta Knight, in the form of Meta Knight's only real 'option weakness' in the entire game:

-> Outside of MK's tilt range, any move that either outranges or out prioritises MK's "subpar" (understand that these things aren't really subpar but they still form a minor weakness in the sense that aren't GOD TIER like the rest of him) walls of fairs and or bad approach options (dash attack, dash grab, tornado...) will do better against him than other members of the cast.

MK's option shortfall (which most other characters can't overcome) really only means the following:
A character who can outdo his tilt range sh fair and tornado forces MK to either 'stay put', push forward but be in DANGER (as his real approach options aren't long ranged nor transcended priority), or... against some characters... lose. MK's design flaw is that he can't overcome a literal stale mate against some characters as easily as he'd wish.

Some characters such as Marth can force this stale mate. HOWEVER, Marth still loses badly because EVENTUALLY MK WILL GET PAST THE STALE MATE, AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN AWESOME RECOVERY YOU'RE GOING TO DIE.

Snake comes close to even due to awesome range on forward tilt, and the explosion radius of his grenades. Without these two tools to cover MK's 'weakness' the match would be severely in MK's favour. Snake has no reliable aerial options against MK, and without ftilt he wouldn't have the range to stand reliably in an advantageous position.

Wario has such an outstanding aerial mobility that he can weave in and out of MK's "wall" efficiently, whilst combining himself with a super armor high damage/kill move (fsmash) and other high damage punishment options (uair, waft...). As Wario has a reliable move to cover MK's subpar (read above what I mean by subpar here) approaching options and can overcome the wall, he is equipped to handle MK.

Diddy has bananas. They're amazing things that completely out do MK's approach options. Hence MK struggles.

Falco has lasers, similar to nanas but faster and always plentiful. As long as Falco is outside the wall range, MK struggles. And to overcome his bad recovery (i.e. avoiding the eventual death) he has side b to reset situations.

Out of all these characters Snake is the only one who can firmly be in the advantageous position (outranges/prios the wall); Falco and Wario force stale mates (by wandering and out manouvering the moving wall), whilst Diddy actually has an item that lets HIM get through the wall.

Imagine if MK had either better aerial mobility or a faster/higher jump! If only more characters could exploit MK's weaknesses effectively (heh it's just about the only real one).

MK can only really lose if you camp him.
 

Nanaki

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Imagine if MK had either better aerial mobility or a faster/higher jump! If only more characters could exploit MK's weaknesses effectively (heh it's just about the only real one).

MK can only really lose if you camp him.
Let's just throw in a projectile and heavy weight and make him perfect in ALL aspects!

But really, good post.

@FMOI:
Wario is an extremely versatile and good character. His tournament rankings haven't skyrocketed, but the people representing him in tournaments (Reflex, DMG and PhantomX, mainly) constantly place high and well, showing that he is capable of winning.

The Grab Releases are not that much of a problem because grabbing a Wario is extremely hard to pull off, making this an annoyance, nothing more. He has no real hard counters, as well, only a few slightly disadvantaged matchups. The Sheik thing, by the way, was discovered after the tier list was released, so using it as an argument is moot and "unfair", if you know what I mean with it. Not to mention it's pretty situational in any case.

He is one of the heavier characters in the game, has incredibly good momentum cancel as well as an amazing recovery, making him one of the longest living opponents in the whole game. He has good killing moves and his offstage game is great. His aerial mobility combined with his floatiness and strong aerial moves make him easily control the air.

Wario has the tools to beat even his harder matchups with a bit of smartness and patience. His only real downsides are a lack of range and a few grab releases, which a good Wario usually can avoid without much trouble. Wario is one of those characters that can play the "Don't get grabbed" card the best.

Oh, sorry, I actually posted something useful. My bad. *goes back to sipping brandy*
Nice Wario summary. You left out that his 'combo' potential is also very high, but that somewhat goes without saying.

I think Falco would still place well if he had more rep. People always seem to leave out that his jab game is ridiculously good.
 

Nefarious B

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They don't HAVE to, but it would better the community as a whole and give them more credibility if they did.
I think many people would disagree with you here; I do at least. The more outside influence there is the less credibility they will have, because it will push further towards "people pleasing". Like I said, I appreciate when Spadefox, DMG and others come in here and try to explain their positions, but by no means should they have to.


If they can't hear contrasting opinions while still forming their own conclusions, they shouldn't be in the position they're in. This isn't even an issue worth BRIEFLY considering.
You're pretty fast to try and throw out any argument that you disagree with. Now, imagine the thousands of scrubs who would do the same thing to any argument the SBR gives for moving a character down. HUGE time sink.

The representatives INSIDE of SBRB? How does THAT help anything? I sure as hell wouldn't trust some of the character reps in there to portray the characters they use most often accurately. And I don't know any major reps for a handful of characters IN the SBRB.

If you mean character reps OUTSIDE of SBRB, then they would need the forum to be viewable so those mistakes CAN be corrected.
So because they're inside the SBR they are suddenly unable to rep their characters. Right.

There should be reps for each character, if that's not the case it needs fixing, simple as that.

Bull****. There is nothing to lose from getting more perspective and everything to lose from getting as little perspective as possible.
Not if those perspectives are uninformed. If there are people outside the SBR who are as informed and as experienced in the tournie scene as those inside of it, then THEY should be inside of it. That doesn't mean an open door for everyone.

In a word, yes. Or more accurately, we stop pretending like arbitrarily hiding one set of discussions is going to have any influence over this fact whatsoever. That's like dismantling a gun and expecting it to lower the amount of murders that take place in your town. It's absurd.
This entire notion is absurd

It's true. I think this list was very good. I also think that their previous two lists were absolute garbage. Should I suddenly consider them to be authoritative because they finally happened upon a reasonably sensible conclusion after three tries?
Did you ever think this was due to all that self moderation we were talking about earlier? Hm...

It DOESN'T work.
But didn't you just indirectly say it did?

And even if I did, it still doesn't answer why I shouldn't have some knowledge of how their authoritative consensus was reached.
I agree that it would be nice if they did release a paragraph or so explanation for each character explaining the changes. That is something the SBR can do without all of the SWFs monitoring their every move.




responses in bold
Are you really asking that, or are you being facetious? I just want to know how hard I should facepalm from that question. facepalm as hard as you want, believe me I have been

Let's look at this again, at a glance.

Keeping SBRB secret does the following...

-Creates disputable results responded to this above
-Cultivates ignorance maybe. add in a paragraph about the decision and this is dealt with
-Encourages a caste system of social status this is a joke. are you mad about being left out of the cool kids club or something? I'm sure those biscuits are tasty but comon
-Allows for no oversights if it has shown it can effectively manage itself with this last tier list, why does it need more red tape to slow the process
-Creates dubious membership selection processes give me 3 names that shouldn't be in the list
-Allows its members to make any claim they'd like without any accountability in a group of the best players in the game do you really think people will be spouting random **** without getting called for it?
-Allows flawed assumptions and conclusions to go unchecked people who know more and have more experience then the SBR members should be in the SBR

Keeping SBRB secret does not do any of the following...

-Prevent any "stupid" arguments from taking place about stages/characters/rules/etc.wrong, but i can see we wont change either of each other's opinions so im done with this
-Create a more balanced consensus than would otherwise be achieved people who know more and have more experience then the SBR members should be in the SBR. if this isn't you, tell me why your opinion should matter
-Help the community in any way, shape, or form right
 
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Good post shaya :)

I hate to get in a yoshi debate, cuz yoshi is terrible, but the main reason he gets beat by MK imo isnt on the ground or in normal, mostly neutral situations (Yoshi can "combo" MK reallly easily if you use a little creativity, and landing back airs against meta knight isnt too difficult), but when MK finally gets yoshi above him, yoshi simply cant do anything if the MK player is reaally good( i lost to tyrant like this). Yoshi has good movement speed, but none of his aerials beat MKs uair, and yoshi is reallly floaty, with slow aerial movement changes, so hes basically stuck in the air, until they misread an airdodge. This happens when recovering too, because there are times when recovering where MK basically forces you to airdodge or else you get down aired, so lots of times i take 30+ damage from taht :(

Ish makes me sad.

Btw, they should make a thread for arguing if the backroom should be kept private, its irrelevant from tier list discussion.
 

Red Arremer

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Inui went offline before I was able to post his one (since he asked me for one). lol. But he already has one made. Just wait until he returns. XD
 

Ryusuta

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I think many people would disagree with you here; I do at least. The more outside influence there is the less credibility they will have, because it will push further towards "people pleasing".
This is patently false. They don't have to give two solitary ****s about people pleasing.

Like I said, I appreciate when Spadefox, DMG and others come in here and try to explain their positions, but by no means should they have to.
Why?

And if they don't explain them, why should their positions matter to anyone else? This is even MORE important.

You're pretty fast to try and throw out any argument that you disagree with.
Correction: I'm very fast at dismantling your terrible logic. It's very simple: if you can't hear public opinion without being able to make your own decisions, you should not be in a position of public influence. It means you're a poor decision maker, and history has proven this time and time again. I wasn't aware that this REALLY needed repeating.

Now, imagine the thousands of scrubs who would do the same thing to any argument the SBR gives for moving a character down. HUGE time sink.
Who are these "thousands of scrubs" that you keep making up to add to your arguments? What the hell, do you think there are all these people just lurking in the wilderness, waiting for SBRB to become public so they can pounce on anything they say? The people that give a **** about SBRB and what they say are already HERE. They're here RIGHT NOW. They're here ARGUING ABOUT THINGS right now. Get real, man.

So because they're inside the SBR they are suddenly unable to rep their characters. Right.
That's a nice strawan you've constructed, there. Now, why don't you actually read what I said instead of making stuff up.

Not if those perspectives are uninformed. If there are people outside the SBR who are as informed and as experienced in the tournie scene as those inside of it, then THEY should be inside of it. That doesn't mean an open door for everyone.
Umm... we're talking about the RULE, here. Not the exception. It's not like one or two people, but literally DOZENS of people with more impressive credentials than those of SBRB members.

On the flip side of that coin, I've spoken to SBRB members that really don't know WHY they were invited to become members in the first place. There's no set criteria for joining SBRB. It's entirely selective.

This entire notion is absurd
So long as you admit it.


Did you ever think this was due to all that self moderation we were talking about earlier? Hm...
So, let's see... they drop the ball in a huge way two different times, and it takes them over 10 months total to correct themselves. This is your ADVERTISEMENT for self-moderation? Are you serious, man?


But didn't you just indirectly say it did?
No, I didn't. Someone can have the completely wrong approach to solving an algebraic formula, yet accidentally stumble upon the right answer to an algebra problem. That doesn't mean their method was any less flawed, or that it would necessarily work again.

I agree that it would be nice if they did release a paragraph or so explanation for each character explaining the changes. That is something the SBR can do without all of the SWFs monitoring their every move.
But don't you see? That doesn't solve things. That's just a P.R. release. That's just them putting a public face of the synopses of their discussions, when the actual PROCESS is what matters.
 

mountain_tiger

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Messages
2,444
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Dorset, UK
3DS FC
4441-8987-6303
Ultimately, the solution to the SBR problem is to become good enough and well respected enough to be invited to join. Unfortunately, I'll probably never be in that position because:

a) I'm not very popular at the moment, especially with the Zelda boards....

and

b) I never, ever back down from an argument, no matter how much evidence they may seem to be against me. If I thinka character should be higher/lower, I'll argue it to the death.
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,002
Location
Frisco you know
They don't have to give two solitary ****s about people pleasing.
As well they shouldn't. People who aren't necessary to the process should no be in it, plain and simple. If you want people to care what you think, then demand their respect. You won't get that by arguing with me, go out and do something that impacts players, like winning tournies or discovering something useful.

And if they don't explain them, why should their positions matter to anyone else? This is even MORE important.
Why do they matter in the first place? Because they know what they're talking about, more than most people. That's why we give them credit, and if you feel they don't know what they're talking about, then don't give them credit in anything they say. It's really not difficult to understand.

That's a nice strawan you've constructed, there. Now, why don't you actually read what I said instead of making stuff up.
Straw man argument is one of the most effective kinds for a reason; it points out how weak your own argument was. If you don't like it, then don't leave your argument vulnerable to it. Here's what you said:

The representatives INSIDE of SBRB? How does THAT help anything? I sure as hell wouldn't trust some of the character reps in there to portray the characters they use most often accurately.
So, either you're saying the SBR is what has made them not worth trusting, which if that's true this argument is done, or you're saying that there are people out there better suited to rep those characters than the SBR members. Now maybe that's true, which is why I asked for an example of who you would replace:
give me 3 names that shouldn't be in the list
and you answer with

Umm... we're talking about the RULE, here. Not the exception. It's not like one or two people, but literally DOZENS of people with more impressive credentials than those of SBRB members.
Who are these dozens of people you're using to support your argument with in the first place? If they truly are better informed, and have more experience in the highest levels of play, then they should be there with the SBR. No one would argue that.

Then you come up with this:
So, let's see... they drop the ball in a huge way two different times, and it takes them over 10 months total to correct themselves.
This is your argument that self moderation is bad? For 10 monthes they didn't do it, and the result was lackluster. Then they start to do it, and... wow a tier list people agree is actually good. This shouldn't be so hard to understand.

And follow up with this:
Someone can have the completely wrong approach to solving an algebraic formula, yet accidentally stumble upon the right answer to an algebra problem. That doesn't mean their method was any less flawed, or that it would necessarily work again.
If you actually think they came up with a tier list by chance, and then to have that list, which is naturally going to have character bias, agreed upon for the most part, I really don't know what to say to you.

But don't you see? That doesn't solve things. That's just a P.R. release. That's just them putting a public face of the synopses of their discussions, when the actual PROCESS is what matters.
Finally another good point. So basically, what do people want from the SBR, besides a list, because there seem to be two separate things: knowledge of the proceedings, and actual participation.

Being able to see the discussions would actually be really cool, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that. In that way, I think the SBR could do better.

Being able to participate just brings us to the argument we've had already, whether you believe it's good or bad, I don't really care, but it won't happen because the SBR doesn't want to deal with uninformed opinions, and yes while allowing everyone to participate will bring more knowledge to the table, it will bring substantially more stupidity, and much more time for everyone involved.
 
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