The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Turbo Ether]

Understand that a tier list is a comparative list.

Everyone's position is in relation to everyone elses.

It's not a question of whether someone should be higher, but who should they be above.

That said, who do you think Mario should be above?

They'll ignore you, like they ignored me.

If you're gonna claim that a character is too low, don't just come in here listing strengths and matchups. That can be done for every character. Specifically tell us which characters shouldn't be above them, backed with solid reasoning.

 

[Matador]

The only thing really wrong is killing, but it's not even that bad. I rarely if ever have snakes living past 130%

I never knew Yoshi had trouble killing. His Uair's pretty amazing.

 

[Ryusuta]

What?

Somehow I knew you'd jump in on this.

This doesn't make the weakness a moot point because it very clearly points out that you're forcing yourselves to be playing around a known weakness - one that limits your options compared to the rest of the cast.

Tell that to Sonic players. People constantly tell them about their lack of killing power, but they consider it a moot point because they work around it in such a way that it's not a consideration.

The problem is when high or even mid-level players run anti-spotdodge tech. Then you get punished for spotdodging, but falling back on shield is hardly any better.

You can always be baited into doing things, regardless of the character. Yoshi's not the only character that can't fight out of shield (strictly speaking, he is, but many characters have such bad OoS attacks that using them isn't a viable option).

The problem is that you're making a mountain out of a molehill. I'm not saying that his shield isn't a problem. I'm saying it's not as big of a problem as it's made out to be, and I've never seen it single-handedly cost Yoshi a match-up.

I mean, check out Bwett's matches. Or Scat's. Tell me how much lacking OoS options has hurt them.

I'm just trying to keep this in perspective. Yes, lacking OoS reduces Yoshi's options under some circumstances. Likewise, lacking a projectile hinders the options of characters like Ike in some circumstances. That doesn't mean they're helpless children that are utterly crippled by something like that.

Yes, every little bit counts sometimes. But it's really a matter of proper perspective.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hope you enjoyed my read, I'm surely going to make a topic later on "Base Values" vs "Options" -> Which represents tournament viability?

I didn't want to quote the whole post but I'm glad you made it, because it summarizes ZSS quite well.

This post is why ZSS will be #6 or #7 in the whole cast by the end of things. Despite the fact that she seemed terrible at face value (when Brawl was released) her moves continue to get more useful and each of them has a dozen more applications than we thought they did a year and a half ago, and with no end in sight. Her matchups are getting better, her tourney results are getting better (Snakeee *****!), and her players are getting better with each discovery. ZSS can perform a walkoff with Dash Locking on every member of the cast, so last night when we confirmed that Dash Locks work on everyone but Kirby, we also confirmed that Castle Siege is probably one of her best stages whereas a year ago we hated the **** out of it because the second section nullified side b.

Face value can be deceivingly positive or negative.

 

[aeghrur]

No we don't.
I admit sonic has a killing problem.
We all know that. it's only a moot point on someone else who can't kill, like falco, but his lasers and CG and Bair still gives him an advantage T_T

 

[Zankoku]

Tell that to Sonic players. People constantly tell them about their lack of killing power, but they consider it a moot point because they work around it in such a way that it's not a consideration.

It's still not a moot point. If Sonic has so many options and mixups that he can keep landing hits as long as he outthinks his opponent, that's great, but it doesn't change the fact that he still has to land twice as many hits per stock. A high-level Sonic player might be amazing at the reading game but in the end that's what's going to give him trouble in the upper brackets - players who are just as good or even a little worse at predicting/reading/whatever, yet playing characters that need to win far fewer RPS situations to get the KO.

Similarly, if Yoshi players are sufficiently adjusted to work without a shield, it still doesn't make the fact that he cannot use his shield as effectively as a great deal of other characters.


The rest doesn't matter, I'm arguing against specific points brought up by you, not the overall placement of Yoshi.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The only things you listed that Meta Knight has way over Sheik in the matchup against Snake are disjointed range and strong recovery. For all intents and purposes against Snake, the relevant attacks that Sheik has are just as difficult to punish, and again, she can tack on guaranteed chunks of damage much more quickly than Meta Knight.

What really gives MK an edge is, in my opinion, his edgeguarding options. Sheik jumps high, but not that high. Stupid offscreen Cypher.

Well, and MK's anti-edgeguarding options (aka, edguard me? ha!)

But the point is that he has lots of results, which certainly prove that D3 is top tier material.
On paper D3 looks a bit worse than he is.
Mario looks like hes good (according to some people) but hes low on the tier list partially because he doesnt have the results to back him up.

I claim the opposite, he's worse then tournament results suggest he is because people aren't taking advantage of him.


Mario is actually a whole lot better then tournament results suggests, but he needs better mains, mains that are actually willing to put a good amount of work into him.

Perfect example, when I hear about Mario having this amazing AT, but nobody uses it because it's "too hard to time".

I'm not talking about requiring inhuman reflexes or needing an input a frame, I'm talking about a situation where you know what's coming a long time before, but the input window is very small, like only a few frames.

The technique is called "cape teleport", basically if you cape a person at the right time as they grab the ledge during what should be invincibility frames), they lose their invincibility frames and get frozen for a short period of time in addition to other interesting effects.

I'm going to reply to your points in order.

- Use Din's Fire to help coutner projectile camping (it's not as bad as you say it is, seriously...)

- Again, Din's Fire and attacks like FSmash and SH Naryu's Love

- Yes, his aerials are powerful, but they're so slow...

- She can edgeguard him back. Simple.

- What do you mean by 'manipulated' exactly?

No, unfortunately Din's fire IS as bad as we're saying, and every Zelda player has come to this conclusion. It only beats a few other projectiles (waddle-dees being the most notable) because of her inability to release control until it detonates. All it can function as is a punisher and to limit options off-stage except in very rare cases.

The SBR is like the electoral college FEDERAL SUPREME COURT in US government. It's supposed to be somewhat isolated, because then they (hopefully) won't have to deal with all the fanboyism slowing down the process and influencing opinions.

I do enjoy it when the SBR members come here and talk about what they do. But they shouldn't be required to. That will tend to create the above situation.

If certain SBR members are talking and are saying stupid **** about a character, it should be up to that character's reps to correct that person simple as that. So, every character needs representation, and I'm not sure if this is the case with some of the mid to lower characters.

IMO, if you want to see what's going on, get good enough to where you deserve to be there making decisions with them. Or, if you don't like their list, don't follow it. Make your own list based on your own experience and what you've learned from others. But just realize that your opinion will never have as much weight as a large group of people who have proven knowledgable of the game at the highest level.

Fixed

I made that analogy a LONG time ago, but basically the reasoning stands. SBR needs to be private because subjecting the decisionmaking process to scrutiny will destroy the organization's legitimacy in the eyes of the players, not as a result of a failure within the organization, but instead because of psychology and the community's own individual biases.

That said, I think they should follow SCOTUS' lead and release "decision", basically not just include the result but also include a something explaining the decision that's agreed on by the SBR.

I personally prefer croissants.

So do I, especially the ones filled with chocolate. But biscuits are awesome too.

That's because you just doesn't know what's good, Ankoku.

Nah, they're really quite good, try croissants sometime, they're delicious. The only person that doesn't like a croissant is somebody that hasn't tried one.

He doesn't deserve a bottom tier spot, he's good in skilled hands. In fact, he's mid-high tier in skilled hands.

No...

His good attributes are that of a mid-tier character, but his bad attributes are bad enough to bring him back to the bottom.

 

[Zankoku]

Well, and MK's anti-edgeguarding options (aka, edguard me? ha!)

I don't find those particularly relevant in the matchup against Snake, which is the only thing I was looking at when evaluating traits and options.

 

[bigman40]

The shield isn't that much of a problem. It takes a while to get used to what you CAN do to make the most of it. Even then, it wouldn't matter much since he can't jump out of shield anyway. So as long as we can get out of the shield with a little bit of space from the opponent, it's not even a problem.

As for killing, it's a little problem, but not immense. Most Yoshi's that play smart on their kill moves do fine and kill at about the amount most characters have trouble (imo, a tad better since he kills starting at 120), which is about 150%

And I'm not claiming that it's not a problem, but they're not THAT bad. It's more small to moderate problems (an accumulation of them) that really pull Yoshi, and the shield is the largest one.

 

[aeghrur]

I HATE YOU ADUMBRODEUS.
You just made me hungry.

 

[Shaya]

In simple terms,
Yoshi is still a character that is fought by "deal with this".
Rather than "deal with those".

i.e. singular vs plural.

Meta Knight vs Yoshi "deal with the grab".
Instead of "deal with the grab, deal with the great aerial mobility, deal with the projectile that cuts down these options..."
And yes, I'm saying that yoshi's bases with the mobility and projectile aren't considered as viable or in-depth options.

Yoshi fails to be a great character by design flaws.
Samus was bad in Smash 64 and now in Brawl. However Samus has pretty good character design, people can understand this... she just sucks.

Samus should have been the "more aerial based" Snake. Or actually, Snake should have been the more ground based Samus. They have noticable comparisons in design quirks, but it's obvious to see how BROKEN Snake's options are.

Kind of like Marth and Meta Knight. They follow a character design of a fast swordsman.
However they differ with
MK has transcended "attacks", whilst Marth has transcended "specials"
MK has low aerial mobility, whilst Marth has one of the better ones.
Marth has a bad dash grab, but great pivot grab - MK has a great (close to the best) dash attack but a pretty subpar pivot grab (including boosts)
Marth has the options of approaching with transcended priority in match ups, Meta Knight does not.
Marth has better vertical killing ability, whilst MK has better horizontal killing ability (Yes I'm aware Tipper fsmash is more powerful than all of mk's ****, that isn't killing ability!).
I can 'presume' that Marth was made to be stronger in the air, whilst MK being stronger on the ground (but look how 5 jumps, gliding, faster but weaker aerials, and transcended priority [hence wil always hit through peoples specials] is1).

I'm prone to argue that Marth has a better character design than Meta Knight. But we all know how ridiculous MK's options are (who cares about transcended priority, TORNADO!) Who cares about aerial mobility, my sh fair auto cancels and times itself so I'm on the ground with barely any 'lag time' between when the hitbox is over or not! Who cares about your priority, my sword is more disjointed than any other fast swordsman, and it's also transcended so I will ALWAYS WIN unless you outrange me!

Things like that are base choices...

 

[momochuu]

Shaya's posts are so good, haha.

 

[Nefarious B]

Which benefits are those?

You quoted me saying that I had already listed them. /hence you could have just looked up my previous post where I LISTED them.

I could have SWORN I already said that.

^^^^^^^ Funny how people don't read what you just wrote, eh?

However, since I'm in a good mood, quickly: so that the SBR doesn't have to spend time answering every noob who thinks their opinion matters, so that the SBR is less influenced by the fanboyism of said noobs, and finally because if the SBR has all characters represented (like it should) then it's up to that character's rep(s) to have a good enough knowledge of their character to call someone else out for their mistakes. The legions shouldn't be necessary to correct people, and only serve to slow the process down.

Umm... yeah. Except that happens anyway, so keeping conversations secret doesn't prevent this.

So just because it happens means we invite it to happen? Um, cars get stolen despite the law?

Self-moderation isn't the same as oversight. Oversight is in place because groups shouldn't be TRUSTED to moderate themselves.

So here is your first GOOD point, GOOD job. However, you yourself agreed that this tier list is pretty **** accurate, and considering there are infinite conflicting opinions, it's pretty cool that we go something that most people agree is a good list.

Groups can and do oversee themselves, it's just not common (and I agree that it proly shouldn't be allowed, but hey if it works...). The expectation to do the right thing is what keeps them in line and pushes them to "do the right thing". Think: Supreme Court.

What's the only counter to a Supreme Court (once the Justices are on it that is)? Oh that's right. If the President refuses to enforce their verdict, invalidating their opinions. Oh hey, why don't YOU try that if you don't like the way they run their ship.

You should work on coming up with an argument that wasn't run into the ground already before you worry about what words I'm emphasizing.

K

Edit:

I made that analogy a LONG time ago, but basically the reasoning stands. SBR needs to be private because subjecting the decisionmaking process to scrutiny will destroy the organization's legitimacy in the eyes of the players, not as a result of a failure within the organization, but instead because of psychology and the community's own individual biases.

Wow are you kidding me? I totally did not see this before I posted lol, good ****.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't find those particularly relevant in the matchup against Snake, which is the only thing I was looking at when evaluating traits and options.

So you find that he doesn't really get gimps against Shiek/punish Shiek's recovery.


Interesting, must be doing something wrong then (because it has come up for me enough for me to consider it relevant).

I HATE YOU ADUMBRODEUS.
You just made me hungry.

That was my goal, mwahaha!

 

[Shaya]

Shaya's posts are so good, haha.

I thank you for reading and getting something out of them.

 

[Red Arremer]

So do I, especially the ones filled with chocolate. But biscuits are awesome too.

Nah, they're really quite good, try croissants sometime, they're delicious. The only person that doesn't like a croissant is somebody that hasn't tried one.

I know croissants, my country is like the croissant country after (real) France. <.<

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yoshi has pretty good base values,
invincibility frames on a kill move
great aerial sped(THE BEST)
controllable projectile
heavy armor on second jump
etc etc

However, there's a lot of impedement due to how much Yoshi is restricted by having his shield (with shield options being unbelievably POTENT in brawl)
Sorry if I came off as saying Yoshi was completely worthless. He definitely has more depth to him than some characters above him; but they're not helping him to the point that a match up is considered
"60:40 against yoshi" BECAUSE
Yoshi's array of options aren't as good as the opponent's character in the match up.
It's more
"Yoshi just doesn't have an array of ability as his options can be grouped together [As in yoshi being able to do 10 things doesn't mean 10 options, when those 10 things only really have '1 result']."

I definitely do not know too much about Yoshi. Sorry for understating his abilities.

Fixed a few things

 

[Crizthakidd]

wait WHAT THE F***. i just noticed falco above DDD by two spots. that n** shoudlnt event be in the same tier as MK. lolz


we need more east coast rep in the SBR -_-

but seriously what made the decision to put mk and snake in the same tier as all those other guys.
having a top tier with 5-6 chars isnt that good of an idea to me. falco is not the 4rth best chr in the game because u can simply live long until a lazer to upsmash finally gets u. ddd has wayyy too many good results. hes def the 3rd best. then wario and diddy thennn maybe falco o.o

 

[Shaya]

I may be missing something but I only see the aerial speed thing :|

 

[Inui]

Falco is the most overrated character in the game. I haven't lost to a Falco since March 2008, and I've played against Keitaro many times since then, and I even beat Chillin's Falco in December. Falco just sucks if you ban FD and know how to deal with lasers and side b.

 

[Red Arremer]

But are they as fast as thsoe options listed above? (They might be, I hoenstly don't know.)

If you don't know, then why are you allowing yourself to judge this matchup like you knew? <_<

 

[fromundaman]

Falco is the most overrated character in the game. I haven't lost to a Falco since March 2008, and I've played against Keitaro many times since then, and I even beat Chillin's Falco in December. Falco just sucks if you ban FD and know how to deal with lasers and side b.

While I agree mostly with your point, shouldn't you be banning Japes vs Falco rather than FD for a large portion of the cast?

 

[Zankoku]

I think NJ bans Japes from stagelists period. But I understand your confusion, since you live in Ohio.

 

[fromundaman]

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Brinzy]

If you don't know, then why are you allowing yourself to judge this matchup like you knew? <_<

Because everyone is allowed to talk about everyone and everything because equality and progression and CHANGE.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Falco is the most overrated character in the game. I haven't lost to a Falco since March 2008, and I've played against Keitaro many times since then, and I even beat Chillin's Falco in December. Falco just sucks if you ban FD and know how to deal with lasers and side b.

Wasn't Falco rising up in tournament performance and doing well? Then the only Falco I can recall being active and doing stuff as of now is SK92 on the WC.

 

[Red Arremer]

If it hasn't changed, and I think it hasn't, DEHF is pretty active too. Not sure about Kismet.

Falco is underplayed in the States, though.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I got a question. If a character has like 1-2 people repping him/her and do well in tournies, how would that affect their placement on a tier list outside of voting?

 

[Red Arremer]

I got a question. If a character has like 1-2 people repping him/her and do well in tournies, how would that affect their placement on a tier list outside of voting?

Since the tournament results have to convince the voters, not the person who leads the current tier list project (except for casting their votes of course), their tournament placings would have no direct effect on a placing on the tier list.

If this character's top players constantly place using this character, I doubt anyone would just shun and ignore them.

 

[Inui]

While I agree mostly with your point, shouldn't you be banning Japes vs Falco rather than FD for a large portion of the cast?

Typical NJ/NY stagelist:

Neutrals (stage strike system used to determine first stage)
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Battlefield
Smashville

Counterpicks
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise (I think it should be banned)
Castle Seige (possibly bannable)
Frigate Orpheon (possibly bannable)


I think that's it, lol.

 

[Brinzy]

lol, NJ/NY...

 

[Morrigan]

Might as well copy the Japanese and play in only 3 stages.

 

[infomon]

scrubs.

10prematurebans

 

[Dark.Pch]

Since the tournament results have to convince the voters, not the person who leads the current tier list project (except for casting their votes of course), their tournament placings would have no direct effect on a placing on the tier list.

If this character's top players constantly place using this character, I doubt anyone would just shun and ignore them.

That's right, you boys voted to who should be on a list. If there was no need to vote, then I would assume a discussion about each character in the game would have been done. You all would have just discuss the characters in and out and then when on about thier match ups. From there, determind where they belong on the list. And to Me, I don't think that happened. Also that comment from a member in the SBR about high tiers also lead me to this assumption of mine. And I think how it should have went on and no need to vote.

if you guys are talking and trying to decide the best placements, even if it comes 2-3 spots off, You should have been able to talk about all characters, know all about them and then talk about their match ups fully as well. That's how I think it should have been doen and not even have a voting involed.

The only reason I would see you boys voting is cause you don't know all characters or match ups in there fully to just but your heads together and decide who goes where.

 

[Inui]

Might as well copy the Japanese and play in only 3 stages.

I wish.

That stage list is all about skill.

 

[Red Arremer]

And who of the SBR has ever claimed that they knew everything about all characters?

 

[Shaya]

Falco is pretty overrated, he's not an S tier character, in the least.
Like he could still be top 7 in the game, but he isn't in the same tier as MK, by a long shot.

Counters coming out of his every orafice.

 

[Dark.Pch]

And who of the SBR has ever claimed that they knew everything about all characters?

The SBR as one. Not just one person.

 

[da K.I.D.]

jesus DP, stop being such a whiny brat


on another note, im mildly sure, but i figure i should ask again, are there any sonic mainers (not players, mainers) in the sbr?

 

[Dark.Pch]

jesus DP, stop being such a whiny brat

Shut it. This has nothing to do with Peach or wanting her up if you think that is what I am getting at. I'm asking questions and stating my opinion on the SBR. No one is whinning. So enough. Read what I am saying and talking about before you assume stuff just to get on me.