The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Nanaki]

Nope. He neds the double jump since it activates on frame 1 an places him just out of reach.

Biting and biking dont work iirc.
I dont think he can airdodge it either.

I swear, the more you post, the more knowledgeable you seem. How the hell do you know everything? Shadowlink4SBR-B!

With all the Ness hype, it invariably makes me think of Lucas. He always seems like a character with good combo potential, good smashes (Usmash is slow, but hits like a truck), good specials, solid recovery...what's holding him back? He does well in Europe (at least one Lucas main did for awhile, that's probably a stupid statement to make based on only that...).

I can seriously see him in top of C tier, maybe even into bottom of B tier if he gets some rep. Am I totally out of line here?

 

[Deathcarter]

I swear, the more you post, the more knowledgeable you seem. How the hell do you know everything? Shadowlink4SBR-B!

With all the Ness hype, it invariably makes me think of Lucas. He always seems like a character with good combo potential, good smashes (Usmash is slow, but hits like a truck), good specials, solid recovery...what's holding him back? He does well in Europe (at least one Lucas main did for awhile, that's probably a stupid statement to make based on only that...).

I can seriously see him in top of C tier, maybe even into bottom of B tier if he gets some rep. Am I totally out of line here?

I would not beleive that. Maybe middle of D tier, but NOT top of C tier.

For one thing, all of the characters in C tier have better matchups than Lucas. I know Peach, Luigi, and Shiek have one or 2 advantaged matchups in the high tiers. Diddy and Wario for Peach, Olimar and Wario for Luigi, and Olimar and maybe Wario and Falco for Shiek; all of them may be 55:45 at best, but to possibly have the advantage against one or two top tiers is huge, something Lucas can only dream about. Can you give me two truly neutral matchups Lucas has against any of the top 13 characters?

Not to mention Lucas having four really bad matchups, three of them being in the top 8 of the list. Lucas has to work rediculously hard to make it into the top 8 of a tournament, more than almost every character above him and even some below him.


Also, Lucas's moveset is not that good.

-He has no relatively safe kill moves NOR any RELIABLE set-ups into his kill moves.
-None of his moves are particually spammable AND good; the only one that comes close is PK fire and it is easily dealt with a good aerial.
-Zelda and Bowser are the only two characters above him he definitively racks up damage better than.


These are the only things I am aware of when it comes to Lucas. I don't main the kid so what I know of him can be called to scrutiny if wrong. I do beleive he is better than Ike, Bowser, and Zelda, but the top of C tier is only a pipe dream for the blond boy.

 

[B!squick]

I do beleive he is better than Bowser.

No. If DeDeDe didn't exist Bowser would be in C tier, easily.

 

[pure_awesome]

Technically that's true, since the removal of one character would imply that everyone moved one spot up, which would put Bowser in C tier automatically.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Technically that's true, since the removal of one character would imply that everyone moved one spot up, which would put Bowser in C tier automatically.

Not really, they're ordered within discrete categories, everyone below the person within the categories would automatically move up a spot, but there'd be no corss-over so other categories would be unaffected.

 

[Deathcarter]

No. If DeDeDe didn't exist Bowser would be in C tier, easily.

He would still have to contend with Ice Climbers and a lack of a neutral matchup with the top half of the cast (though Lucas can't really brag in this regard either).

 

[B!squick]

The Climbers counter several characters hard. The thing that makes DeDeDe's infinite stand out is how easy it is to perform. The Ice Climbers have a certain art to them.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315

45/55 verse Meta Knight, Wario, Falco, and Lucario.
Many 40/60s.
The only blights are D3 and IC with Diddy just being quite difficult.

 

[Nanaki]

I would not beleive that. Maybe middle of D tier, but NOT top of C tier.

For one thing, all of the characters in C tier have better matchups than Lucas. I know Peach, Luigi, and Shiek have one or 2 advantaged matchups in the high tiers. Diddy and Wario for Peach, Olimar and Wario for Luigi, and Olimar and maybe Wario and Falco for Shiek; all of them may be 55:45 at best, but to possibly have the advantage against one or two top tiers is huge, something Lucas can only dream about. Can you give me two truly neutral matchups Lucas has against any of the top 13 characters?

Not to mention Lucas having four really bad matchups, three of them being in the top 8 of the list. Lucas has to work rediculously hard to make it into the top 8 of a tournament, more than almost every character above him and even some below him.


Also, Lucas's moveset is not that good.

-He has no relatively safe kill moves NOR any RELIABLE set-ups into his kill moves.
-None of his moves are particually spammable AND good; the only one that comes close is PK fire and it is easily dealt with a good aerial.
-Zelda and Bowser are the only two characters above him he definitively racks up damage better than.


These are the only things I am aware of when it comes to Lucas. I don't main the kid so what I know of him can be called to scrutiny if wrong. I do beleive he is better than Ike, Bowser, and Zelda, but the top of C tier is only a pipe dream for the blond boy.

The matchups I will certainly concede - he gets totally destroyed by a few top tiers (Marth and MK being the most prime examples, I'd say). He does OK against some higher tiers, but you're right, only maybe Pikachu is truly even (and that's pretty debatable).

I'll argue against the moveset a little, but it's hard, as I don't know all that much about him. He just seems decent at first glance to me, I guess (despite the fact that I initially hated him for no good reason).

-His kill moves may not be entirely safe, but I can see an argument for them having SOME setups. Dair -> Dtilt spam -> fsmash is di-able, but it's still a decent setup and works fairly often, mostly because nobody plays against him. His Fsmash comes out pretty fast, but it's certainly not safe unless there's an opening for it. His pivot grab is pretty decent too, and his dthrow can kill at decent percentages out of it.
-You sure can't spam with Lucas and really get away with it against good competition, I'll give you that.
-I'm unsure about this, you could make the argument that Bowser racks damage better than he does. I'm so unfamiliar with Lucas, it's hard for me to say.

I certainly wasn't saying I think he's going to shoot up in the list anytime soon, just that I thought he seemed like he had potential to rise. Hell, nobody thought PT would make it out of F tier until Reflex pulled his 'winning a decent tournament' nonsense with him.

 

[Tenki]

iirc you can possibly SDI away from the shoryuken. Don't remember though.

And yeah, jab -> upB for Luigi isn't guaranteed; none of his options are. I suppose that's one solid thing that Ike has over Luigi's jab game. However, if you're adding SDI into the mix, why can't you just SDI Ike's jabs?

Nah, just hold shield lol. It fails to link by like, 1 frame and gets pshielded, pretty sure.

However, I know a certain Luigi that will do it when you're either in the air (landing lag/frenzy --> death) or near the edge of platforms, so DI away isn't much of an option.

.. :[

 

[ShadowLink84]

Every character has around two to three frames of lag regardless if they attack or not.
During those three frames you can land ANYTHING provide the attack box is out at that moment.

Hence when a Sonic springs then Dairs in the wrong spot, even a Warlock punch will hit when timed correctly.
Hence why Sonics low aerial mobility hurts him and why Wario's high aerial mobility is such an incredible tool.

Wario can avoid that lag so its much harder to take advantage of him,

 

[adumbrodeus]

I certainly wasn't saying I think he's going to shoot up in the list anytime soon, just that I thought he seemed like he had potential to rise. Hell, nobody thought PT would make it out of F tier until Reflex pulled his 'winning a decent tournament' nonsense with him.

I still dion't think PT should be out of E tier (I never thought he was F tier equivalent), and I think that he needs more then just reflex winning to establish him as that.

At this point, all it prove is that reflex is amazing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Pt is amazing because he has a woman that listens to him. *shot*

 

[Red Arremer]

Hmmm...... MK's meta game spam A neutral, spam B neutral, rinse and repeat.


Let the angry comments flow!

I never lol'd so hard in this thread. Never. This takes the cake in terms of hilarity.

 

[zac attack]

woo go diddy kong! only just started playing him tho but i find him easy to use and funny to play
love meta knight also.

 

[gm jack]

Her moves are brickwalls that Wario can't get through, meaning he has to be far enough away to not get hit by her hitboxes, which places her outside of grab range.

She does have the 3rd longest grab range outside of the tethers though, so the margin isn't that great. Considering how slow her attacks are though, I would not say it is a good tactic against Wario.

I believe Sheik also has the pivot grab infinite on Wario, and I think the margin of error is pretty big (considering this sort of combo). However, it is also very situational, and Wario can just air camp as he pleases and punish when he is approached.

 

[Kinzer]

So I just wanna know:

She does have the 3rd longest grab range outside of the tethers though

Where did you get THIS from?

 

[MysticKenji]

So I just wanna know:



Where did you get THIS from?

This thread has her as 3rd best

This one has her in a 4-way tie for 2nd

that's only for standing grabs though

 

[Brinzy]

So I just wanna know:



Where did you get THIS from?

What, you didn't know?

 

[gm jack]

She has great grab range and considering her vertical options, Uthrow puts them in a really bad position. Her grab is just hilariously slow.

 

[Kinzer]

What, you didn't know?

No, I did not.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

woo go diddy kong! only just started playing him tho but i find him easy to use and funny to play
love meta knight also.

you also have the best signature here lol

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I still dion't think PT should be out of E tier (I never thought he was F tier equivalent), and I think that he needs more then just reflex winning to establish him as that.

At this point, all it prove is that reflex is amazing.

This wise man speaks great truths. You should all listen to him.

With the logic shown in Reflex winning a tournament = sudden jump upwards, M2K could bump up any lower tier character he wishes. Or anyone else that's amazing at Brawl and can win with lesser characters.

 

[hotgarbage]

oop, just noticed that there was a jab discussion a few pages back. To contribute to that here's some FrAmE dAtA from a (neglected ;___; ) thread of mine:

*note*
no action- advantage when your opponent doesn't perform an aerial action
aerial action- advantage when your opponent DOES perform an aerial action at the first possible frame. Yes, most characters can do this.
air time- how long your opponent will be air able to perform an action

these jabs were performed on mario

Luigi

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: +5
- aerial action: -1
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1:
- no action +1
- aerial action: -4
- air time: 1 frame

Second Jab after First Jab
- no action: +5
- air time: 5 frames


Captain Falcon

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: +6
- aerial action: 0
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1:
- no action: +5
- aerial action: -1
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab after First Jab
- no action: +8
- air time: 5 frames


Snake

First Jab
HB1:+3
HB2:
- no action: +6
- aerial action: 0
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1: -8

1st hit of grounded ftilt
HB1: +2


Ike

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: +16
- aerial action: +7
- air time: 5 frames
HB2:
- no action: +10
- aerial action: +5
- air time: 2 frames
HB3:
- no action: +8
- aerial action: +2
- air time: 2 frames

Second Jab
HB1:
- no action: +6
- aerial action: 0
- air time: (forgot to get :V)

Strictly looking at the frame data Ike > Captain Falcon = Snake > Luigi.

Of course determining which jab is "better" isn't that simple, as you have to consider viable mixup options, how good the standard combo is, etc. But that was probably discussed in some of the posts I didn't bother to read ^_____>.

.....ike's first jab is just abnormally good lol


On a related topic, when looking at jabs it's important to remember variable knockback jabs like wario's:

First Jab
Wario

0%:
- no action: 0
- aerial action: -5
- air time: 1 frame
30%:
- no action: +4
- aerial action: -2
- air time: 2 frames
60%:
- no action: +8
- aerial action: +2
- air time: 2 frames
90%:
- no action: +12
- aerial action: +5
- air time: 3 frames
120%:
- no action: +18
- aerial action: +9
- air time: 5 frames
150%:
- no action: +24
- aerial action: +12
- air time: 10 frames

Typical of variable knockback jabs it's pretty mediocre at low percents.... but gets very, very good later on.



And lastly:

Sonic
First Jab:
HB1: -7

Second Jab:
HB1:-10

lol

 

[Vermy]

This wise man speaks great truths. You should all listen to him.

With the logic shown in Reflex winning a tournament = sudden jump upwards, M2K could bump up any lower tier character he wishes. Or anyone else that's amazing at Brawl and can win with lesser characters.

I've seen you post all over threads about how much you hate PT. Are you just pissy that PT is above Ike or do you have genuine reasoning behind why you believe PT should be lower? Reflex's tournament results may be the most recognised, but TCranter, an Australian smasher consistently places top 8 with PT in tournaments. Squirtle's metagame alone has soared in the past few months. PT deserves the spot it has, its just a big hurdle to get over using 3 mains in 1. For example, you need to know over 100 matchups, so to know how to CP properly you need to know who works best in that situation.

PT has a high learning curve, and fatigue, having to adjust your playing style after every stock loss/switch and being forced to play all 3 pokemon turns a lot of people away from taking it as a main.

But back to my initial question.....

What do you have against PT as evidence that we need to be lower on the list?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

With the logic shown in Reflex winning a tournament = sudden jump upwards, M2K could bump up any lower tier character he wishes. Or anyone else that's amazing at Brawl and can win with lesser characters.

I've been winning with Pokemon Trainer for months, though. He's not just a ****ty character backed by an excellent player.

That aside, this game is actually rather balanced, I'll give you that.

 

[tocador]

This wise man speaks great truths. You should all listen to him.

With the logic shown in Reflex winning a tournament = sudden jump upwards, M2K could bump up any lower tier character he wishes. Or anyone else that's amazing at Brawl and can win with lesser characters.

But then, if someone picked a low tier and started to beat other PROS a** with that char, it means 2 things:

1.The pro with low tier is MUCH, MUCH better then the others.

or

2.The low tier has pottencial and people are way too dumb/dont want recognize it.

And i think with PT is the option 2 ^^.

 

[Zigsta]

I've seen you post all over threads about how much you hate PT. Are you just pissy that PT is above Ike or do you have genuine reasoning behind why you believe PT should be lower? Reflex's tournament results may be the most recognised, but TCranter, an Australian smasher consistently places top 8 with PT in tournaments. Squirtle's metagame alone has soared in the past few months. PT deserves the spot it has, its just a big hurdle to get over using 3 mains in 1. For example, you need to know over 100 matchups, so to know how to CP properly you need to know who works best in that situation.

PT has a high learning curve, and fatigue, having to adjust your playing style after every stock loss/switch and being forced to play all 3 pokemon turns a lot of people away from taking it as a main.

But back to my initial question.....

What do you have against PT as evidence that we need to be lower on the list?

Yeah, PT isn't nearly as bad as people think. He just has a ridiculously high learning curve, so during earlier tier lists, PT "mains" got demolished at tournaments (for the most part, of course) because they either were only good with one Pokemon or they tried to play all of them equally and still needed more time to bring them up to snuff.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've seen you post all over threads about how much you hate PT. Are you just pissy that PT is above Ike or do you have genuine reasoning behind why you believe PT should be lower? Reflex's tournament results may be the most recognised, but TCranter, an Australian smasher consistently places top 8 with PT in tournaments. Squirtle's metagame alone has soared in the past few months. PT deserves the spot it has, its just a big hurdle to get over using 3 mains in 1. For example, you need to know over 100 matchups, so to know how to CP properly you need to know who works best in that situation.

PT has a high learning curve, and fatigue, having to adjust your playing style after every stock loss/switch and being forced to play all 3 pokemon turns a lot of people away from taking it as a main.

But back to my initial question.....

What do you have against PT as evidence that we need to be lower on the list?

1) Sure, others have placed top 8. I don't deny that at all. But how many actually win things? 1. When you think of PT, how many names come to mind? Reflex, and maybe Typh. Heck, I don't deny PT deserved to go up a few spots. But that maybe because one guy can win tournaments with him? Due to the guy that did basically the same thing with Lucas? No. I'm sorry, but that is hype, nothing more, nothing less. Reflex has proved that HE can win tournaments with odd characters, not that PT deserved to jump that high. There would have had to been several others winning big tournaments to warrant a jump that big. If there had been 3 or 4 people suddenly winning tournaments, PT would have been undoubtably deserving of moving that high in my mind.

If only one guy can do it, it's an anomaly. A fluke. A special case. If multiple people can do it consistently, it's fact. Going by what happened with PT, M2K could decide to go solo with Falcon, win a tournament, and expect him to move up 5 spots all of a sudden next tier list. Because apparently anomaly = fact around here.

2) Denying that fatigue is a fatal flaw is like Ness/Lucas denying that grab releases seriously screw them over. Or Link/Ganondorf/Ike/Olimar denying that their recoveries hurt their game a lot. It.Screw.Them.Over.Harshly. And quiet frankly, the fatigue flaw is the biggest flaw in the game. It's almost like a reverse Aura effect, except you can restart it every time you die/get a chance to switch out. Yes you can work around it, but it still keeps a character down. It keeps Lucas/Ness down, there is no reason why a harsher flaw wouldn't keep PT down.

3) What's Squirtle's big metagame advancement? Everyone has heard about Pikachu's new CGs. Everyone found out about Bowser's/Ike's/D3's grab release shenanigans when they were discovered. Everyone heard about the ZSS combo on ROB, which lead to another footstool combo on ROB already. I haven't heard anything about PT outside of Reflex being able to win tournaments with him for a LONG time. I'm doubting it's actually that big.



Until I see proof of it otherwise: PT's rise was solely on the Reflex hype. It's sad that the tier list can be affected by such things, but it's apparently true. Prove to me that it's not just Reflex. If Reflex hadn't picked up PT, would PT have risen as high?

And I won't be responding today, as I have tournament johns.

 

[da K.I.D.]

hot garbage's post reaffirmes my thought that if sonic EVER pulls off jab to ANYTHING thats not the rest of the jab combo, the person they are playing against sucks

 

[Kinzer]

This post.

Pardon me, but what is HB1?

Also nice to know that Sonic is, yet again, giving his opponent a freebie when he doesn't complete his already crappy jab.

 

[Camalange]

hot garbage's post reaffirmes my thought that if sonic EVER pulls off jab to ANYTHING thats not the rest of the jab combo, the person they are playing against sucks

lolololol

or super pressure mindgame *****, but wow...I always knew Sonic's jab was bad but that's just terribad.

 

[hotgarbage]

hot garbage's post reaffirmes my thought that if sonic EVER pulls off jab to ANYTHING thats not the rest of the jab combo, the person they are playing against sucks

Pretty much lol. I could actually see it working sometimes though considering how compulsive shielding isn't exactly uncommon. Shielding at minimum is a 14 frame endeavor, so jab-> grabbing would work >_____>.


Also I just pointed out Sonic because he's fun to pick on~. Olimar gets the coveted "worst jab mixup in the game" award:

Olimar[/SIZE][/B][/U]

First Jab
HB1: -18 LOL

Also also here's the thread if anyone is curious/bored enough to be interested in how character's jab mixup games compare: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236603


EDIT:

Pardon me, but what is HB1?

Also nice to know that Sonic is, yet again, giving his opponent a freebie when he doesn't complete his already crappy jab.

My bad, forgot to point that out.

It's short for "hitbox 1". Yes I'm too lazy to write it out. Oddly enough quite a few jabs have multiple hitboxes with different properties. This is easy to see with Snake; if he hits with the part of the jab closest to him his opponent won't leave the ground. If he hits with the tip of it his opponent will be popped up in the air.

....oh yeah, and green=pops person in the air; red=they don't leave the ground.

 

[smashkng]

Ike and Ganondorf are the only 2 that can be considered slowest in terms of attack speed. Both are at the same time the 2 "pure power" characters.
Ike has clearly the slowest overall attack speed start-up in the game along Ganondorf or slightly faster and most overall punishable moves (only thing false is jab). That's clear. All his aerials have terrible end lag and except neutral air they're slow. Ganondorf has 2 lag-free aerials though all of them have terrible land lag.

Ganondorf has better aerials, is heavier, has slightly more KO moves and faster smashes but Ike has better range, (though Ganondorf has good range), decent mobility and better recovery (though Ike's one is still bad).

If in high level play no one would ever make a misstake Ike would probably be around 34-35 in tier list as it's possible to completely avoid his overpowered attacks Ganondorf would probably be last.

 

[gm jack]

@Nidtendofreak

All characters have weaknesses. PT mains are just learning how to get around fatigue. The biggest problem is that it takes time to learn all the characters well enough that one doesn't let you down while the others refresh. Sheik/Zelda also has potentially in the same way, because the flexibility allows them to avoid horrible individual matchups while forcing the opponent to adapt.

PT isn't not deserving of going up, if that makes sense.

 

[typh]

If only one guy can do it, it's an anomaly. A fluke. A special case. If multiple people can do it consistently, it's fact. Going by what happened with PT, M2K could decide to go solo with Falcon, win a tournament, and expect him to move up 5 spots all of a sudden next tier list. Because apparently anomaly = fact around here.

I'd make the argument that Reflex and I are pretty much the ONLY pokemon trainer mains, not that we're the only ones doing good in tournaments with him.

Here in Socal, one of if not the largest smash community in the United States, I am literally (and I use that word by it's dictionary definition, not as hyperbole or exaggeration) the only Pokemon Trainer player. I'm sure if other people started playing Pokemon Trainer as well, they would also get top 8. But a lack of players = a lack of results. PT is an intimidating character to pick up, you have to learn 3 characters and deal with fatigue, so no one wants to play him.

Pokemon trainer is a decent character, and the SBR recognized that. Nothing more.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

One of the things I've wanted to ask the PT mains for a while:

Have ya'll come up with a way to mitigate fatigue mid-match? Do ya'll swap out at particular intervals in a match? If you don't want to answer the question(s) directly for the sake of the character's (or should it be characters'?) meta-game I can understand; I just wanted to know the general strats.

Smooth Criminal

 

[typh]

One of the things I've wanted to ask the PT mains for a while:

Have ya'll come up with a way to mitigate fatigue mid-match? Do ya'll swap out at particular intervals in a match? If you don't want to answer the question(s) directly for the sake of the character's (or should it be characters'?) meta-game I can understand; I just wanted to know the general strats.

Smooth Criminal

i can't speak for other PT mains but i rarely switch out in the middle of a stock, except as ivysaur

the only reason i'll switch is if i'm fatigued AND i want a KO. if i'm fatigued and just racking up damage the fatigue isn't such a big deal

everyone plays him differently though, that's the beauty of PT :3

 

[mountain_tiger]

Ike and Ganondorf are the only 2 that can be considered slowest in terms of attack speed. Both are at the same time the 2 "pure power" characters.
Ike has clearly the slowest overall attack speed start-up in the game along Ganondorf or slightly faster and most overall punishable moves (only thing false is jab). That's clear. All his aerials have terrible end lag and except neutral air they're slow.

Bair would like a word with you.

 

[M.K]

One of the things I've wanted to ask the PT mains for a while:

Have ya'll come up with a way to mitigate fatigue mid-match? Do ya'll swap out at particular intervals in a match? If you don't want to answer the question(s) directly for the sake of the character's (or should it be characters'?) meta-game I can understand; I just wanted to know the general strats.

Smooth Criminal

If the opponent isn't killing you fast enough for the fatigue to reset, is there really a problem to worry about? Usually the fatigue resets on KOs, but if the opponent can't kill you, then there is no problem, it's just a way to rack up damage.
Edit: Oh, snap Typh >_> Totally didn't see your post.

 

[Nitrix]

Ike and Ganondorf are the only 2 that can be considered slowest in terms of attack speed. Both are at the same time the 2 "pure power" characters.
Ike has clearly the slowest overall attack speed start-up in the game along Ganondorf or slightly faster and most overall punishable moves (only thing false is jab). That's clear. All his aerials have terrible end lag and except neutral air they're slow. Ganondorf has 2 lag-free aerials though all of them have terrible land lag.

Ganondorf has better aerials, is heavier, has slightly more KO moves and faster smashes but Ike has better range, (though Ganondorf has good range), decent mobility and better recovery (though Ike's one is still bad).

You really don't know Ike. His jab is definately not slow, and can easily wreck some characters. Check the 1st hit of his jab combo, I guarantee you that it isn't slow.

Ike also has better aerials than Ganondorf, and this isn't up for debate. Ike's F-Air has incredible range and can be spaced nicely while his N-Air lets him land with a suprisingly small amount of lag. I've faced Ike's that only use Jab combo and spaced F-Airs, and it is much tougher than you'd expect.

When I think of Ganondorf's aerials all I think of is his U-Air and D-Air, none of which seem to compare to Ike's.

Ike also has better KO options than Ganondorf, and is better at edgeguarding.

If in high level play no one would ever make a misstake Ike would probably be around 34-35 in tier list as it's possible to completely avoid his overpowered attacks Ganondorf would probably be last.

This arguement is pretty terrible, since people make mistakes even in high-level play. The nice thing about Ike is that if you can stay 1 step ahead of your oponent then you decimate them. Thus in high-level play all you have to do is stay 1 step ahead, and then winning with Ike is possible. Of course this is MUCH easier said than done, but saying "people don't make mistakes" is just not true.

Of course Ike is held back by things like his recovery but his Jab combo, Smashes and aerials make him an excellent pocket character.