The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[cheetacuz007]

how is PT ahead of Ike if they are both 1.29


EDIT: 100th post :D

 

[Collective of Bears]

One of the things I've wanted to ask the PT mains for a while:

Have ya'll come up with a way to mitigate fatigue mid-match? Do ya'll swap out at particular intervals in a match? If you don't want to answer the question(s) directly for the sake of the character's (or should it be characters'?) meta-game I can understand; I just wanted to know the general strats.

Smooth Criminal

I don't really worry about it. Fatigue really isn't so crippling that you can't use a fatigued Pokemon. I do it all the time.

 

[adumbrodeus]

When I think of Ganondorf's aerials all I think of is his U-Air and D-Air, none of which seem to compare to Ike's.

Actually not at all, Dair and uair compare very favorably with Ike's aerials. Uair is an amazing aerial, extremely good at covering him, it's high priority, can kill, and has powerful semi-spiking properties. It's one of the best uairs in the game.

Dair is not quite as amazing, but it's still very good considering it's rather disjointed (the sides), lagless, high priority, and combos well.


Really, Ganon's aerial problems are that he lacks a zoning moves (bair lacks the range, fair has WAY too much lag), as well as his overall character design.


Not that his aerials are actually bad in and of themselves.

 

[smashkng]

Back air of Ike has not as good range as his other attacks, though.

Ike has no fast smashes, maybe dsmash (but it's weak, poor range compared to his other attacks and punishable if missed) and fsmash is easily punished if missed as it is very slow, has predictable animation and if missed, he is a vulnerable target. Up smash has great range but is also has start-up and ending lag.

Ike is a character that relies in punish misstakes but himself is easily punished when using a move that isn't jab or grab without set up.

 

[Deathcarter]

Back air of Ike has not as good range as his other attacks, though.

Ike has no fast smashes, maybe dsmash (but it's weak, poor range compared to his other attacks and punishable if missed) and fsmash is easily punished if missed as it is very slow, has predictable animation and if missed, he is a vulnerable target. Up smash has great range but is also has start-up and ending lag.

Ike is a character that relies in punish misstakes but himself is easily punished when using a move that isn't jab or grab without set up.

Dude, the only thing slow about Fsmash is its horrendus start up time. The time inbetween the time you can charge up the smash and the actual hitbox coming out is actually not that bad; this means predicting a spot dodge is very difficult. Yes you can punish Fsmash if it is shielded, but the ending lag is small enough so that the opponent, assuming the attack hit the shield and they didn't powershield, cannot heavily punish Ike with the possible exception of Fox or Sheik with their top tier Usmash/DACUS.

Besides, if you are going to mention bad Smashes which aren't even the focal point of Ike's game, then DDD would like a word with you with his even worse smashes.

 

[Ussi]

Ike has no fast smashes, maybe dsmash (but it's weak, poor range compared to his other attacks and punishable if missed) and fsmash is easily punished if missed as it is very slow, has predictable animation and if missed, he is a vulnerable target. Up smash has great range but is also has start-up and ending lag.

Ike is not known for fast smashes but STRONG ones. And besides range, they are known for their lasting hitbox. Usmash lasts a good time making landing on the ground very hard for aerial opponents.

Dsmash sucks though lol.

Ike is a character that relies in punish misstakes but himself is easily punished when using a move that isn't jab or grab without set up.

What character doesn't rely on mistakes? Don't say projectile spammers, they are relying on their foe to make a mistake at PSing/Approaching.

 

[kingcobra9]

ike must be ripped to just wing that sword around with one hand

 

[aeghrur]

Why does it matter if ike's smashes are a little slow?
His tilts are strong as hell!

 

[Nanaki]

Why does it matter if ike's smashes are a little slow?
His tilts are strong as hell!

His tilts are slow too, though. I guess they're fast compared to his smashes, but they're still slow compared to most of the cast.

 

[Flayl]

What character doesn't rely on mistakes?

High tier characters mostly. You know, the ones with really good approaches.

 

[Esca]

Ike isn't that good, lol. All I have to do with Pit is mirror shield. If you just double jump when Ike is charging, you don't get hit by his smashes. Don't get inside and you won't get jabbed. Not hard.

 

[Nitrix]

Ike isn't that good, lol. All I have to do with Pit is mirror shield. If you just double jump when Ike is charging, you don't get hit by his smashes. Don't get inside and you won't get jabbed. Not hard.

Obviously Ike has weaknessess, just like Pit. The good thing about Ike is that his biggest weaknesses can be managed to an extent by picking the right stage.

Also, Ike can reverse his up-B so he recovers facing away from the stage, that way Mirror Shield isn't activated.

Your way of avoiding smashes and jabs is laughable.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Ike isn't that good, lol. All I have to do with Pit is mirror shield. If you just double jump when Ike is charging, you don't get hit by his smashes. Don't get inside and you won't get jabbed. Not hard.

Oh yeah, because of those methods blatantly work on a good Ike player, right? It doesn't matter waht skill level they are, these tactics will always screw them over. They should just give up right here and now, right?

BTW, who else thinks that Sheik should rise? She combos really well by Brawl standards, her needles work well at forcing approaches on a lot of characters, and also her biggest flaw, lack of killing power, can be solved through staled FTilt > USmash. I reckon around where Peach is now would be abotu right for her.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike isn't that good, lol. All I have to do with Pit is mirror shield. If you just double jump when Ike is charging, you don't get hit by his smashes. Don't get inside and you won't get jabbed. Not hard.

You live in Texas. Please take a trip to El Paso so A_B can rip you apart when you attempt to fight him that way.

 

[Nanaki]

Oh yeah, because of those methods blatantly work on a good Ike player, right? It doesn't matter waht skill level they are, these tactics will always screw them over. They should just give up right here and now, right?

BTW, who else thinks that Sheik should rise? She combos really well by Brawl standards, her needles work well at forcing approaches on a lot of characters, and also her biggest flaw, lack of killing power, can be solved through staled FTilt > USmash. I reckon around where Peach is now would be abotu right for her.

I personally love Sheik, I think she's awesome. However, her matchups at this point just aren't all that great. They're certainly not as good as Peach's. If I remember right, IC's hard counter Sheik pretty badly, and Diddy is debatably pretty hard too (I think?). Peach just has more matchups where she is working from a position of power, whereas Sheik (alone) is generally working from a disadvantage and trying to make up for it. Also, if you know that Sheik is going for ftilt->usmash, it's pretty easy to avoid it. If you stubbornly try to ONLY kill with Sheik, you can easily end up with your opponent at 200%+ before you kill them with a Bair/Fair, while they've built up a decent % on you in the meantime.

I think the thing that will advance Sheik fastest is incorporating Zelda (which I think Sheik mains are doing a good job of trying to do). Knowing which % you still have a good chance of killing with Sheik (and knowing how stale/unstale your combo/kill moves are) is key. If you are flexible and switch to Zelda (and have a GOOD Zelda), it makes your life much easier. The trick there is actually having a good Zelda to get the finish with. It also unstales your Sheik moves, so you might be able to land that USmash kill on the next stock without switching.

I think the Sheik/Zelda dynamic in this game is really interesting. I'm heavily leaning towards maining the combo. I'm looking forward to Ankoku's 'instructional video' to help up my Sheik/Zelda game, as well.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You guys act like the tier list actually matters. It's actually opinion. I don't care if the opinion is from elitists, pros, or what not. Humans are biased, prone to mistakes, etc. There's also the problem of popularity. Again, tier list = fail. I'm against tier lists, but I do believe one truly does exist. But our ability to find it as humans is so flawed it's hilarious.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

You guys act like the tier list actually matters. It's actually opinion. I don't care if the opinion is from elitists, pros, or what not. Humans are biased, prone to mistakes, etc. There's also the problem of popularity. Again, tier list = fail. I'm against tier lists, but I do believe one truly does exist. But our ability to find it as humans is so flawed it's hilarious.

u mad

10charsgohere

 

[adumbrodeus]

You guys act like the tier list actually matters.

You wanna know why?

It's actually opinion. I don't care if the opinion is from elitists, pros, or what not. Humans are biased, prone to mistakes, etc. There's also the problem of popularity. Again, tier list = fail. I'm against tier lists, but I do believe one truly does exist. But our ability to find it as humans is so flawed it's hilarious.

It's a problem, but that's why we rediscuss to hopefully arrive at an ever more correct tier list. For example, melee's tier list gives you a very good overall impression of the character's capabilities. Sure, it only took them 7 years to get it right but whatever.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I think the thing that will advance Sheik fastest is incorporating Zelda (which I think Sheik mains are doing a good job of trying to do). Knowing which % you still have a good chance of killing with Sheik (and knowing how stale/unstale your combo/kill moves are) is key. If you are flexible and switch to Zelda (and have a GOOD Zelda), it makes your life much easier. The trick there is actually having a good Zelda to get the finish with. It also unstales your Sheik moves, so you might be able to land that USmash kill on the next stock without switching.

Two things:

1) I thought that Sheik wanted stale moves (mainly FTilt) because it allows them to combo better.

2) Why would you use USmash ifyou aren't trying to kill with it?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

You wanna know why?





It's a problem, but that's why we rediscuss to hopefully arrive at an ever more correct tier list. For example, melee's tier list gives you a very good overall impression of the character's capabilities. Sure, it only took them 7 years to get it right but whatever.

thats because we cant figure out everything over night

Smash is like an enigma of mysteries, its our job as humans to sit down and figure out those mysteries--Not because we're initially flawed, but to try to become better humans and as smashers. So in researching, we iron out our flaws as humans and take much closer steps to perfecting our game as smashers.

The Tier list is a tentative title, it represents the "now". Not the future.

 

[Frown]

I thought we discussed tiers because it was fun.

 

[adumbrodeus]

thats because we cant figure out everything over night

Smash is like an enigma of mysteries, its our job as humans to sit down and figure out those mysteries--Not because we're initially flawed, but to try to become better humans and as smashers. So in researching, we iron out our flaws as humans and take much closer steps to perfecting our game as smashers.

The Tier list is a tentative title, it represents the "now". Not the future.

You seriously quoted the wrong person, the second paragraph of my post said basically what you said, except more succinctly and using melee as an example.

The picture dealt with why people talk about it so much.


You should quoted Kalm.

 

[Nanaki]

Two things:

1) I thought that Sheik wanted stale moves (mainly FTilt) because it allows them to combo better.

2) Why would you use USmash ifyou aren't trying to kill with it?

1) You want a stale ftilt at the END of a stock, not the beginning. At the beginning, you're counting on it to rack up a ton of damage if you get a lock. If it's stale, they'll DI out and you won't get as much damage (stale moves = lower damage).

2) You may be using it to try to kill with it and simply not get the kill for some reason(good DI by your opponent, for example - or you underestimate their weight factor). Once you've used it once and it's in your stale move list, it gets even harder to kill with.

 

[Zenthewanderer]

I've taken several looks at the latest list and I've come to a few- conclusions...

1. The most obvious one- seven of the original fighters from SSB are at the bottom. Pikachu and Kirby returned to their original, SSB grace. Donkey Kong, Luigi, and Fox are just sort of there.


2. Many of the complaints and beliefs from months ago are being addressed. I'm talking about Sonic being middle tier material, Lucas over Ness (not tied), Captain Falcon over Ganondorf, PT being underrated, Ike being too high, Diddy deserving better, Fox over Wolf, and Samus being borderline bottom. Things of that sort. I find it interesting that it wasn't until the third list that these early assertions were finally given credit.

Granted not everyone was saying these things, but they all had quite the followings. It makes you wonder if other such wide-spread beliefs and suspicions will turn out to be true... A.K.A- a rise for Yoshi, PT should be separated, a fall for Bowser & Peach, and Marth deserving an S rank. I won't give my opinions of these various popular beliefs, but I wonder how future tier lists will reflect them.

3. The last thing... More than ever tier lists, Smash, the players, and the tournament scene are like one giant mass of politics and faction-centered hysteria. Just my take on it all. Heh...

 

[Dark 3nergy]

You seriously quoted the wrong person, the second paragraph of my post said basically what you said, except more succinctly and using melee as an example.

The picture dealt with why people talk about it so much.


You should quoted Kalm.

welp usually when i quote other person i do it sometimes to reinforce what they say bb

not the other way around lol, chill bro it wasnt an insult i swear [not trolling]

 

[infomon]

3. The last thing... More than ever tier lists, Smash, the players, and the tournament scene are like one giant mass of politics and faction-centered hysteria. Just my take on it all. Heh...

Which is why it's so fun

 

[Red Arremer]

2. Many of the complaints and beliefs from months ago are being addressed. I'm talking about Sonic being middle tier material, Lucas over Ness (not tied), Captain Falcon over Ganondorf, PT being underrated, Ike being too high, Diddy deserving better, Fox over Wolf, and Samus being borderline bottom. Things of that sort. I find it interesting that it wasn't until the third list that these early assertions were finally given credit.

Because, uhm... these points were raised and proven during the second list? Perhaps?

Granted not everyone was saying these things, but they all had quite the followings. It makes you wonder if other such wide-spread beliefs and suspicions will turn out to be true... A.K.A- a rise for Yoshi, PT should be separated, a fall for Bowser & Peach, and Marth deserving an S rank. I won't give my opinions of these various popular beliefs, but I wonder how future tier lists will reflect them.

I doubt PT will be separated, Bowser and Peach will fall, and I highly doubt Marth will ever reach S rank. The most realistic of these points is that Yoshi would rise, and even that isn't definite.

 

[TP]

Nobody intelligent has ever said PT should be separated. It makes no sense. I am neutral about Zelda/Sheik being combined.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Forced switching is going to become less of a problem for Pokemon Trainer, which, in turn, will help deal with fatigue. The two biggest arguments about PT's viability will lessen in time--trust me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

welp usually when i quote other person i do it sometimes to reinforce what they say bb

not the other way around lol, chill bro it wasnt an insult i swear [not trolling]

Don't worry, totally chill, that was more of a confused tone then anything else.


Fair enough, but if you don't say you agree (implicitly or explicitly) with the post it seems like you're posting a counterpoint.

If you're reiterating imply or say "I agree" or don't quote, otherwise it's mad confusing. Yea text a lot of the attributes of speech is pretty frustrating.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Forced switching is going to become less of a problem for Pokemon Trainer, which, in turn, will help deal with fatigue. The two biggest arguments about PT's viability will lessen in time--trust me.

I agree with this. Really, fatigue is only a problem if you're trying to kill with the Pokemon in question; they can still rack up damage OK when fatigued.

And as nice as it would be to see them separated in the tier list, it's not going to happen. Period.

 

[Dingding123]

Yall SERIOUSLY underestimate Link. :\

 

[Kewkky]

Yall SERIOUSLY underestimate Link. :\

... Or you underestimate everyone else. That's also a possibility.

We'll see Link's position in the next tier list rise or fall, so just continue repping him at tourneys and taking high spots against renowned players, and I assure you he will rise.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yall SERIOUSLY underestimate Link. :\

No. No we don't.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Link isn't really very good, to be honest. His projectiles are decent, but nowhere near as good as the likes of Toon Link and Snake, and his sword has decent range and priority, but that comes at the cost of his attacks being very slow. His air game isn't exactly great, and as for his recovery, well, frankly it's awful. What's the point in being a heavy weight if your recovery means that you can't survive for longer?

Edit: Though I do agree that he's better than Captain Falcon.

 

[Snowstalker]

My tier list:

GOD

Meta Knight

TOP

Snake
Falco
Diddy Kong
Wario
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch

HIGH

Marth
Pikachu
Olimar
Ice Climbers
R.O.B
Kirby
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong
Peach

MIDDLE

Toon Link
Luigi
Pit
Wolf
Sheik
Bowser
Fox
Zelda
Sonic
Yoshi

LOW

Pokemon Trainer
Ness
Mario
Ike
Lucas
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link

FAIL

Ganondorf

 

[ShadowLink84]

No. No we don't.

I would have to agree if Link is being placed under Captain Falcon. =P

Falcon really has no business being above the elf boy who is much more capable than him.

The major drawback to him as character, being his terrible recovery which is easily the worst (if we do not count the Solo Ice Climber and NOlimar).
In spite of this thugh good DI certainly aids him in staying alive and once he's hit over 100 it becomes difficult to kill him in spite of his poor recovery due to DI placing him above the stage.

Certainly he cannot camp as strong as Snake or TL, but he does show himself capable of maintaining the spacing especially considering he has a very useful Zair tat can be used to combo into his Usmash , a grab, a bomb.

The ability to ZA his bombs also aids in his survival because it acts like Snake's grenade. If the opponent hits him the bomb will go off hurting his opponent and acting as a knockback reducer.

@Snowstalker: Link is the 5th worst character in the ame.
Falcon has NO business being above Link AT ALL.

Edit: Yoshi is too high

 

[Morrigan]

^You forgot the usual "Yoshi is too high."

 

[ShadowLink84]

I amended the aforementioned post.

 

[Red Arremer]

Ganondorf being in his own tier and the name "God Tier" = Instant fail.

I didn't even look at the contents.