The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[ShadowLink84]

AA made an amazing post, everyone should acknowledge it,

 

[Muro]

Infinite with Double Jump:

Bowser*, Yoshi*, Zelda*, Zero Suit Samus*, Pit, R.O.B., Fox, Falco, Wolf@

Infinite without Double Jump:

Diddy Kong, Meta Knight

*: Can force a jump break on Wario on flat ground.
@: Wario gets a chance to use his double jump, but he gets grabbed before he can ascend.

im certain wario can bike away from zss infinite, i dunno about the others (aside from bowser which btw gets chaingrabed by wario to kill percent) im surprised they are so many :S

 

[tocador]

Yeah, Zamus isnt a infinite :O, wario can bike away o/

 

[SilverDoc~]

Can I have some critique for my diddy, tell me what I did good or what I need to work on, Thanks guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FXJ8KV-OBc

Feel free to look at anything else by me, comment, critique, and yada yada, thanks.

 

[bigman40]

Can I have some critique for my diddy, tell me what I did good or what I need to work on, Thanks guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FXJ8KV-OBc

Feel free to look at anything else by me, comment, critique, and yada yada, thanks.

*points to the left* Diddy boards are that way son. This is about the tierlist, not about help on people's skills.

 

[Muro]

ok i went to check it:

on falco:
down throw x n > forward throw (52~130%)
from about 73%, down throw needs to be diminished
from about 120% falco can get out

on wolf
down throw x n > forward throw (20~230%)

on bowser
down throw x n > down B (0~180%+)
up to 168%, everything could be buffered
from 169%, wario can continue the chaingrab by walking (not recommended)
down B doesn't hit from about 140%? (not sure)


copy paste from aib, so 2 of those AA listed infinites are nullified bcause they get cg'd to kill percents anyway and wario has an easier time grabbing, on falco is not so bad but again wario has an easier time grabbing him

 

[Frown]

Excellent, Ampharos. Excellent.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Gah, too much misinfo in this topic, and the search function refuses to work on my computer. I keep getting a blank white screen when I try to use it, so someone else is going to have to look it up for me. I had it all nicely written out.

Ike's combos out of Bthrow: Dash Attack, QD.

Chases out of Uthrow/Dthrow if the opponent lands on a platform. Uair (outlasts spot dodges/AD, shield pokes, you are going to get hit vast majority of the time), Utilt, Aether, Nair, Fair, Bair, Eruption.

Combos into Jab 1: Nair, Jab 1

Ike's followu ups out of Jab 1: Jab 1 (true combo), Grab (1 frame in which the opponent can dodge if they jump and AD, ain't happening), Dsmash (true combo if opponent doesn't try to jump, 4-5 frames to dodge if they do), Utilt (3-4 frames to dodge, true combo with no jump), Dtilt (same as Utilt), Full Jab combo, Bair (mainly a mindgame. They do have 10ish frames to dodge due to jumping frames IIRC)

Even if you SDI, you are still in range of almost everything. SDI behind Ike, you will get hit by turn around jab. SDI up, you'll either be grabbed or Utilt'd. SDI away, you still get hit by jab and grab.

And with Ike, except Jab and Grab everything else is laggy (side b has fast start up but is easily punished if shielded).

Bair = frame 8 attack that hits like a smash attack. and it AC's. That isn't laggy. QD doesn't start up quickly AT ALL. Where the heck did you get that idea? Utilt hits frame 11 and KOs 1% later then an uncharged Usmash. Thats not bad either.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I'd be interested to know how long it took Ampharos to type up that whole post.

 

[Bowser King]

I am mind blown that there would be disagreement that Bowser is slow. Slow is a relative term to the rest of the cast. His sluggish moveset is only outsnailed by the likes of Ganondorf and Captain Falcon (yes, Captain Falcon has low attack speed),

What? Have you ever played bowser? His moves may be sorta slow but all most all of them are faster then or equal to snakes speed >_>

maybe a few other characters but I actually don't think so. His mobility is probably a little below average;

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145760&highlight=speed

Mario and Lucas are considered slow now. That's good to know....

his running speed is not bad and he falls at a decent rate, but his aerial mobility is bad

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952&highlight=speed

So 8th fastest aireal mobility is considered slow? That's also good to know...

and his jump takes a very long time to get off the ground.

Bowsers rarely get off the ground in the first place but still, I give you this one.

How is that not slow? It's definitely in the same league as Ike, probably overall a bit slower (though both are definitely slow).

Seriously?! Ike slow? Wow, you seriously need to turn on your wii and play brawl and tell me he's slower then ike...

I know there's a goofy stigma in the smash community where it's unacceptable to call anyone slow, but really about 1/3 of the cast HAS to be slow by definition (unless the majority of the cast is about the same speed which is obviously untrue). Contrary to the culture, I don't think being slow is a kiss of death to a character (I would call Snake slow, and I'm not suggesting he move down at all). 1/3 of Brawl's cast is 12 characters. Can you name a full 12 characters slower than Bowser? Be forewarned that I can and will gather frame data to discount such claims.

That makes a terrible argument. Overall speed is really hard to measure. There's air speed ground speed and move speed all to take into account. How can you make a chart of "overall speed" when it would be impossible, or take a really long time, to take all that info and group it together.


Plus, 1/3 doesn't have to be slow. In brawls case a lot of the chars have very similar speed. Just because they have a minor difference doesn't mean that the character should be classified as slow.

As per fortress and jab, well first fortress. I don't think Whirling Fortress is the best OOS in the game. That would definitely be Marth's Dolphin Slash. Dolphin Slash is more deadly and, much more importantly, has a lot of range.

Bowsers fortress covers a lot more area horizontally while marths covers vertically. Plus, bowsers fortress is extremely hard to punish, even if used at the wrong time you can get away with it sometimes. Marths on the other hand will get punished hard. Plus, bowser can retreat to the edge fairly safely, marth can only go one way. Bowsers can cancel out projectiles and auto-stops when hitting a projectile making it fairly useful in case you miss and the opponent decides to use projectile spam. It also allows for a decent approch and can kill fairly well (even though marth wins in that category).

It also auto-cancels when connecting to the edge allowing for a decent ledge game.

Also, you never mentioned jab after this

Like, I'm looking at this as Mr. Game & Watch. I turtle Bowser's shield with good spacing. He uses Whirling Fortress and doesn't hit me with the initial hit because the range is bad.

Not really. The range is fairly good and invincibility frames on startup help take care of turtle I would think.

He maybe is able to hit me with the later hit that does almost no damage, maybe not (I can air control away on reaction to a fortress which makes it tricky for Bowser).

The damage is fairly decent, I think it's 10% which isn't bad but not good either. However it gives good a decent knockback allowing us to space better or retreat to the edge if it's close.

On the other hand, Marth can hit me just about no matter what my spacing (I think I can pixel perfect outspace him, but it's human infeasible). In other words, a skilled Marth utilizing his up special out of shield totally nullifies my shield pressure game. With Bowser and his up special, he only forces me to utilize it more carefully.

Hmm...I dont know much about marth to comment on this so I guess it goes.

It's not just G&W's turtle either. What if a Meta Knight is using dair on your shield? Marth's Dolphin Slash jumps up and catches him; he'll just jump over Whirling Fortress.

No he wouldn't, the fortress, if he makes contact with my shield or is close enough it will connect without him being able to jump.

Any number of characters could land a strong hit on a shield (Snake ftilt, G&W dsmash, MK dsmash, etc.). Marth will probably tippered Dolphin Slash to punish that (remembr shield pushback!). Your initial hit of Whirling Fortress is very likely to miss (if the attack is disjointed or if you don't throw it out right before your shield gets hit, which is much more limiting), and you only get the exceptionally weak later hit.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the initial hit lands very often. Just watch some videos and you'll see what I mean.

I should stress that the later hit of your fortress is so weak that if I'm a character with a good shield pressure game, I'm willing to eat that to do shield damage to you. Like, fortress is still good, including OOS. I just don't think it's some magical gift from the heavens for Bowser. Most of the cast has something just as good (though usually not specifically for OOS).

Again, if your in range we can fortress and with bowsers huge shield a lot of hits can be taken. Fortress will very likely get the first hit, a lot of the times it usually does and even the 2nd hit gives enough knockback to launch far enough to space (depending on the character and how far we are in the game but this usually applies to most chars).

It's still not the main reason I just can't see Ike as below Bowser. The most important things are Ike's range and the fact that he doesn't have nearly autolose matchups (Bowser has two: King Dedede and Ice Climbers; these are really huge and really bad and won't go away). The range is so huge. Just think about me as Mr. Game & Watch or Meta Knight or Marth with those nice disjointed attacks trying to bully the poor low tiers. Bowser can try to Whirling Fortress OOS but will run into trouble with its range; he can't fundamentally change my game plan. Ike, on the other hand, can outspace me and challenge me with moves such as his forward aerial that outrange everything I have. I can still use my other tools to play differently and exploit Ike's weaknesses of course, but Ike forces me to fundamentally change my game plan away from my baseline "beat low tier" plan. That's a really amazing thing to claim.

His matchups are bad against 2 chars, I agree. However, fortress does have good range and can be retreated as well.

That's all I got, I missed some things but got most of it.

-Bowser King

 

[Flayl]

I am mind blown that there would be disagreement that Bowser is slow. Slow is a relative term to the rest of the cast. His sluggish moveset is only outsnailed by the likes of Ganondorf and Captain Falcon (yes, Captain Falcon has low attack speed), maybe a few other characters but I actually don't think so. His mobility is probably a little below average; his running speed is not bad and he falls at a decent rate, but his aerial mobility is bad and his jump takes a very long time to get off the ground. How is that not slow? It's definitely in the same league as Ike, probably overall a bit slower (though both are definitely slow). I know there's a goofy stigma in the smash community where it's unacceptable to call anyone slow, but really about 1/3 of the cast HAS to be slow by definition (unless the majority of the cast is about the same speed which is obviously untrue). Contrary to the culture, I don't think being slow is a kiss of death to a character (I would call Snake slow, and I'm not suggesting he move down at all). 1/3 of Brawl's cast is 12 characters. Can you name a full 12 characters slower than Bowser? Be forewarned that I can and will gather frame data to discount such claims.

Both of the statements in bold are false. Bowser's has the 13th best aerial mobility in the game.

Ike's moves are overall a lot slower than Bowser's.

As it turns out, you didn't do the research before you tried to explain why Bowser is slow. Seems like you're just part of the majority.

 

[pure_awesome]

Bowser has a decently slow attack speed. The rest of him is surprisingly fast.

 

[Bowser King]

Both of the statements in bold are false. Bowser's has the 13th best aerial mobility in the game.

Ike's moves are overall a lot slower than Bowser's.

As it turns out, you didn't do the research before you tried to explain why Bowser is slow. Seems like you're just part of the majority.

No, no, no you didn't do your research. It's 9th not 13 >:|

even though I myself thought it was 8th.....

-Bowser King

 

[Collective of Bears]

I personally don't think Bowser is as bad as he is thought to be. The thing about Bowser is he is made mostly of bad MUs. The flipside of that, they're not completely horrible, the only two being Dedede and ICs. Bowser obviously takes skill to use well, but if said skill would ever be repped (COME BACK GIMPY!!!), he will definitely go up.

 

[Flayl]

No, no, no you didn't do your research. It's 9th not 13 >:|

even though I myself thought it was 8th.....

-Bowser King

Hahaha, I was thinking of 13 for something else and it somehow made it into my post.

 

[adumbrodeus]

As per fortress and jab, well first fortress. I don't think Whirling Fortress is the best OOS in the game. That would definitely be Marth's Dolphin Slash. Dolphin Slash is more deadly and, much more importantly, has a lot of range. Like, I'm looking at this as Mr. Game & Watch. I turtle Bowser's shield with good spacing. He uses Whirling Fortress and doesn't hit me with the initial hit because the range is bad. He maybe is able to hit me with the later hit that does almost no damage, maybe not (I can air control away on reaction to a fortress which makes it tricky for Bowser). On the other hand, Marth can hit me just about no matter what my spacing (I think I can pixel perfect outspace him, but it's human infeasible). In other words, a skilled Marth utilizing his up special out of shield totally nullifies my shield pressure game. With Bowser and his up special, he only forces me to utilize it more carefully.

It's not just G&W's turtle either. What if a Meta Knight is using dair on your shield? Marth's Dolphin Slash jumps up and catches him; he'll just jump over Whirling Fortress. Any number of characters could land a strong hit on a shield (Snake ftilt, G&W dsmash, MK dsmash, etc.). Marth will probably tippered Dolphin Slash to punish that (remembr shield pushback!). Your initial hit of Whirling Fortress is very likely to miss (if the attack is disjointed or if you don't throw it out right before your shield gets hit, which is much more limiting), and you only get the exceptionally weak later hit. I should stress that the later hit of your fortress is so weak that if I'm a character with a good shield pressure game, I'm willing to eat that to do shield damage to you. Like, fortress is still good, including OOS. I just don't think it's some magical gift from the heavens for Bowser. Most of the cast has something just as good (though usually not specifically for OOS).

Ok, Marth has a better OOS game overall, but it's not because Dolphin Slash is better.

1 Word, "safety".

Marth's Dolphin Slash is more powerful in a lot of ways, but it's nowhere near as safe as Bowser's fortress, you've got landing lag plus the lag to actually get to the ground, if you mess up, there are so many ways to punish it, it's not even funny.

Bowser's Fortress might not have the range with the initial hit (which definitely does factor into a few match-ups, but he can still maneuver into many characters to punish), but the added safely is enough to make it a cut above.

Ike's jab combo is just amazing. It's good for jab cancels, has nice range/priority on all hits, and if done as a full jab combo does 16% and puts the enemy at a positional disadvantage. 16% is the same thing as landing a smash with most characters, and remember that Ike kills super low. It strikes fear into everyone from Meta Knight to Ganon.

Yes they are, but Fortress has an amazing protective effect on Bowser as a combo breaker, OOS option to discourage pokes, and a simple punisher. Also, it's ability to move (and ledge-cancel overall psuhes it above any other OOS option, and IMO above any jab in the game.

It's still not the main reason I just can't see Ike as below Bowser. The most important things are Ike's range and the fact that he doesn't have nearly autolose matchups (Bowser has two: King Dedede and Ice Climbers; these are really huge and really bad and won't go away). The range is so huge. Just think about me as Mr. Game & Watch or Meta Knight or Marth with those nice disjointed attacks trying to bully the poor low tiers. Bowser can try to Whirling Fortress OOS but will run into trouble with its range; he can't fundamentally change my game plan. Ike, on the other hand, can outspace me and challenge me with moves such as his forward aerial that outrange everything I have. I can still use my other tools to play differently and exploit Ike's weaknesses of course, but Ike forces me to fundamentally change my game plan away from my baseline "beat low tier" plan. That's a really amazing thing to claim.

That's because you're G&W, he does it for a lot of characters (hence the slew of small disadvantages), but not G&W.

Matador, as far as I know, EIDI doesn't really exist and it really is a true infinite. Lucas, however, can escape. Ness cannot.

Read the end of the thread, I think Ref admitted he lied or something.

No, it's 100% true, you still get the guaranteed f-smash/dsmash. Basically everyone thought he lied, but BengalsRZ tested it (a Marth main, I trust his research a great deal more then the Ness boards now, because their mod purposefully withheld information) and he confirmed it. With pivot grabbing it might still be a true infinite, he was testing that, I dunoo how it worked out.

Yeah, Zamus isnt a infinite :O, wario can bike away o/

ZSS against Wario: Bait the bike.

 

[Red Arremer]

Bowser is terrible. I never denied that. I just wanted to point out what Amazing Ampharos was wrong in his first post about him.
That said, he definitely is perfect where he is now - in between Mid and Low Tier.

 

[B!squick]

Hahaha, I was thinking of 13 for something else and it somehow made it into my post.

Technically, he's tied for 8th.

 

[Bowser King]

Technically, he's tied for 8th.

Yeah, I forgot it was a tie :|

Wow, a lot of bowser boarders/ex-boarders here

*Gets MreH to come*

-Bowser King

 

[Nanaki]

Yeah, I forgot it was a tie :|

Wow, a lot of bowser boarders/ex-boarders here

*Gets MreH to come*

-Bowser King

I don't know why, but your avatar creeps me out. Like, a lot.

I've been fooling around with Bowser lately...he's not as bad as I would have thought. I thought his tier placing was high at first, but it's pretty close to right. Does he do OK against DDD without the infinite?

I'm going to have to agree though, he plays faster than Ike. His overall mobility is pretty high for a big dude.

 

[B!squick]

If 40/60 in DeDeDe's favor is okay, then yeah.

 

[Bowser King]

I don't know why, but your avatar creeps me out. Like, a lot.

Ki shi shi shi! That was all part of my plan ....

I've been fooling around with Bowser lately...he's not as bad as I would have thought. I thought his tier placing was high at first, but it's pretty close to right. Does he do OK against DDD without the infinite?

I'm going to have to agree though, he plays faster than Ike. His overall mobility is pretty high for a big dude.

It's pretty decent. Its 60-40 so it's an advantage for D3 but not that bad.

-Gecko Moria

 

[PhantomX]

Just thought I'd point out that grab release infinites are terrible. Not only can you risk a ground break if you are pummeling, most of them save for Ganon and Bowser (who Wario can kinda wreck anyway w/ combos), plus Yoshi, who has to pivot grab to avoid getting *****, involve a pivot grab with almost no room for error. Considering the grabbed Wario can force the jump break at different times via his mashing, you will have to do all of that on reaction for a measly amount of damage, while sacrificing better grab release options and increasing the chance of error. All this of course while hoping you're at the right location so that you are not ****ed up by the stage.

Add to this the fact that grabbing Wario is hard as hell and you have pretty inconsequential infinites (not to mention Wario moves forward as well a little bit, so they end eventually). Also, Wario ****s on Zelda. The nature of her moves means Wario will NEVER be in grab range unless he's ****** her in the face.

 

[pure_awesome]

...Falco has an infinite on Wario?

I didn't even know that.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Neither did I?

The Falco boards suck

 

[Brinzy]

Define "the nature of her [Zelda's] moves."

 

[aeghrur]

Random info about bowser.
16th fastest running speed.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152360

And without the infinite, bowser would be pretty legit.
Sonic should move down 2-3 spots.

 

[PhantomX]

Her moves are brickwalls that Wario can't get through, meaning he has to be far enough away to not get hit by her hitboxes, which places her outside of grab range.

Also... I don't know how Falco has an infinite when he can't even grab release Wario...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Her moves are brickwalls that Wario can't get through, meaning he has to be far enough away to not get hit by her hitboxes, which places her outside of grab range.

Also... I don't know how Falco has an infinite when he can't even grab release Wario...

Its like Sonic.
If he has no second jump and is being held off the stage, then he can be infinited.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

I actually find it quite disheartening seeing as how the internet has no 'tone of voice', what people say can be understood in ten different ways. Dark.Pch keeps getting replied to, but most of what people say sounds like trolling, even if it's not meant to sound that way.

People should word their replies better and be aware of the internet's tone. Shorter is never better when writing.

I am completely objective about this discussion, I jsut thought I would add something in. There CAN be tone in just text.

The way to determine the tone of writing is the acronym I learned in my High School Language and Composition class: DIDLS.

Diction
Imagery
Details
Language
Syntax

Based on those 5 factors, one can determine someone's tone merely from text.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Your name is disturbing.

 

[Pughead]

That sort of happens when you have a completely metagame defining character.

Hmmm...... MK's meta game spam A neutral, spam B neutral, rinse and repeat.


Let the angry comments flow!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

......Neutral A.......

Are you flipping serious?

 

[Pughead]

......Neutral A.......

Are you flipping serious?

whatever that one is when he has a seizure with his sword in 27 different places at once.

 

[pure_awesome]

......Neutral A.......

Are you flipping serious?

Now, now, he's clearly a newbie. He doesn't know any better.

Also... I don't know how Falco has an infinite when he can't even grab release Wario...

I'm like 90% sure we don't have an infinite on Wario.

I'd be pretty happy to find out I was wrong, though.

 

[Pughead]

Now, now, he's clearly a newbie. He doesn't know any better.

Hmmmm..... joke?

Duh not even I'm THAT dumb

Edit: I only come here to see the fights that break out over tiers anyway.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm like 90% sure we don't have an infinite on Wario.

I'd be pretty happy to find out I was wrong, though.

The good news: You're wrong

The bad news: It only works over edge, if he's lost his double jump.


Can you say, "incredibly situational?

 

[deepseadiva]

It doesn't mean your dumb - it just means you lack a lot of current information.

Like the fact no one spams neutral a.

 

[pure_awesome]

So this wrong then?

these are the characters who can infinite Wario:

Infinite with Double Jump:

Bowser*, Yoshi*, Zelda*, Zero Suit Samus*, Pit, R.O.B., Fox, Falco, Wolf@

Infinite without Double Jump:

Diddy Kong, Meta Knight

*: Can force a jump break on Wario on flat ground.
@: Wario gets a chance to use his double jump, but he gets grabbed before he can ascend.

Ah well. Maybe if we catch him out of his bike, or something...


Though question (I don't know much about Wario...): If he has to have lost his double jump, I'm assuming it's because he can double jump away (duh). But if that's the case, then couldn't he Bike/Airdodge/Bite out of it, too?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Nope. He neds the double jump since it activates on frame 1 an places him just out of reach.

Biting and biking dont work iirc.
I dont think he can airdodge it either.