ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
AA made an amazing post, everyone should acknowledge it,
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im certain wario can bike away from zss infinite, i dunno about the others (aside from bowser which btw gets chaingrabed by wario to kill percent) im surprised they are so many :SInfinite with Double Jump:
Bowser*, Yoshi*, Zelda*, Zero Suit Samus*, Pit, R.O.B., Fox, Falco, Wolf@
Infinite without Double Jump:
Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
*: Can force a jump break on Wario on flat ground.
@: Wario gets a chance to use his double jump, but he gets grabbed before he can ascend.
*points to the left* Diddy boards are that way son. This is about the tierlist, not about help on people's skills.Can I have some critique for my diddy, tell me what I did good or what I need to work on, Thanks guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FXJ8KV-OBc
Feel free to look at anything else by me, comment, critique, and yada yada, thanks.
Bair = frame 8 attack that hits like a smash attack. and it AC's. That isn't laggy. QD doesn't start up quickly AT ALL. Where the heck did you get that idea? Utilt hits frame 11 and KOs 1% later then an uncharged Usmash. Thats not bad either.And with Ike, except Jab and Grab everything else is laggy (side b has fast start up but is easily punished if shielded).
I am mind blown that there would be disagreement that Bowser is slow. Slow is a relative term to the rest of the cast. His sluggish moveset is only outsnailed by the likes of Ganondorf and Captain Falcon (yes, Captain Falcon has low attack speed),
maybe a few other characters but I actually don't think so. His mobility is probably a little below average;
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952&highlight=speedhis running speed is not bad and he falls at a decent rate, but his aerial mobility is bad
and his jump takes a very long time to get off the ground.
How is that not slow? It's definitely in the same league as Ike, probably overall a bit slower (though both are definitely slow).
I know there's a goofy stigma in the smash community where it's unacceptable to call anyone slow, but really about 1/3 of the cast HAS to be slow by definition (unless the majority of the cast is about the same speed which is obviously untrue). Contrary to the culture, I don't think being slow is a kiss of death to a character (I would call Snake slow, and I'm not suggesting he move down at all). 1/3 of Brawl's cast is 12 characters. Can you name a full 12 characters slower than Bowser? Be forewarned that I can and will gather frame data to discount such claims.
As per fortress and jab, well first fortress. I don't think Whirling Fortress is the best OOS in the game. That would definitely be Marth's Dolphin Slash. Dolphin Slash is more deadly and, much more importantly, has a lot of range.
Not really. The range is fairly good and invincibility frames on startup help take care of turtle I would think.Like, I'm looking at this as Mr. Game & Watch. I turtle Bowser's shield with good spacing. He uses Whirling Fortress and doesn't hit me with the initial hit because the range is bad.
The damage is fairly decent, I think it's 10% which isn't bad but not good either. However it gives good a decent knockback allowing us to space better or retreat to the edge if it's close.He maybe is able to hit me with the later hit that does almost no damage, maybe not (I can air control away on reaction to a fortress which makes it tricky for Bowser).
On the other hand, Marth can hit me just about no matter what my spacing (I think I can pixel perfect outspace him, but it's human infeasible). In other words, a skilled Marth utilizing his up special out of shield totally nullifies my shield pressure game. With Bowser and his up special, he only forces me to utilize it more carefully.
No he wouldn't, the fortress, if he makes contact with my shield or is close enough it will connect without him being able to jump.It's not just G&W's turtle either. What if a Meta Knight is using dair on your shield? Marth's Dolphin Slash jumps up and catches him; he'll just jump over Whirling Fortress.
Again, if your in range we can fortress and with bowsers huge shield a lot of hits can be taken. Fortress will very likely get the first hit, a lot of the times it usually does and even the 2nd hit gives enough knockback to launch far enough to space (depending on the character and how far we are in the game but this usually applies to most chars).I should stress that the later hit of your fortress is so weak that if I'm a character with a good shield pressure game, I'm willing to eat that to do shield damage to you. Like, fortress is still good, including OOS. I just don't think it's some magical gift from the heavens for Bowser. Most of the cast has something just as good (though usually not specifically for OOS).
His matchups are bad against 2 chars, I agree. However, fortress does have good range and can be retreated as well.It's still not the main reason I just can't see Ike as below Bowser. The most important things are Ike's range and the fact that he doesn't have nearly autolose matchups (Bowser has two: King Dedede and Ice Climbers; these are really huge and really bad and won't go away). The range is so huge. Just think about me as Mr. Game & Watch or Meta Knight or Marth with those nice disjointed attacks trying to bully the poor low tiers. Bowser can try to Whirling Fortress OOS but will run into trouble with its range; he can't fundamentally change my game plan. Ike, on the other hand, can outspace me and challenge me with moves such as his forward aerial that outrange everything I have. I can still use my other tools to play differently and exploit Ike's weaknesses of course, but Ike forces me to fundamentally change my game plan away from my baseline "beat low tier" plan. That's a really amazing thing to claim.
Both of the statements in bold are false. Bowser's has the 13th best aerial mobility in the game.I am mind blown that there would be disagreement that Bowser is slow. Slow is a relative term to the rest of the cast. His sluggish moveset is only outsnailed by the likes of Ganondorf and Captain Falcon (yes, Captain Falcon has low attack speed), maybe a few other characters but I actually don't think so. His mobility is probably a little below average; his running speed is not bad and he falls at a decent rate, but his aerial mobility is bad and his jump takes a very long time to get off the ground. How is that not slow? It's definitely in the same league as Ike, probably overall a bit slower (though both are definitely slow). I know there's a goofy stigma in the smash community where it's unacceptable to call anyone slow, but really about 1/3 of the cast HAS to be slow by definition (unless the majority of the cast is about the same speed which is obviously untrue). Contrary to the culture, I don't think being slow is a kiss of death to a character (I would call Snake slow, and I'm not suggesting he move down at all). 1/3 of Brawl's cast is 12 characters. Can you name a full 12 characters slower than Bowser? Be forewarned that I can and will gather frame data to discount such claims.
No, no, no you didn't do your research. It's 9th not 13 >:|Both of the statements in bold are false. Bowser's has the 13th best aerial mobility in the game.
Ike's moves are overall a lot slower than Bowser's.
As it turns out, you didn't do the research before you tried to explain why Bowser is slow. Seems like you're just part of the majority.
Hahaha, I was thinking of 13 for something else and it somehow made it into my post.No, no, no you didn't do your research. It's 9th not 13 >:|
even though I myself thought it was 8th.....
-Bowser King
Ok, Marth has a better OOS game overall, but it's not because Dolphin Slash is better.As per fortress and jab, well first fortress. I don't think Whirling Fortress is the best OOS in the game. That would definitely be Marth's Dolphin Slash. Dolphin Slash is more deadly and, much more importantly, has a lot of range. Like, I'm looking at this as Mr. Game & Watch. I turtle Bowser's shield with good spacing. He uses Whirling Fortress and doesn't hit me with the initial hit because the range is bad. He maybe is able to hit me with the later hit that does almost no damage, maybe not (I can air control away on reaction to a fortress which makes it tricky for Bowser). On the other hand, Marth can hit me just about no matter what my spacing (I think I can pixel perfect outspace him, but it's human infeasible). In other words, a skilled Marth utilizing his up special out of shield totally nullifies my shield pressure game. With Bowser and his up special, he only forces me to utilize it more carefully.
It's not just G&W's turtle either. What if a Meta Knight is using dair on your shield? Marth's Dolphin Slash jumps up and catches him; he'll just jump over Whirling Fortress. Any number of characters could land a strong hit on a shield (Snake ftilt, G&W dsmash, MK dsmash, etc.). Marth will probably tippered Dolphin Slash to punish that (remembr shield pushback!). Your initial hit of Whirling Fortress is very likely to miss (if the attack is disjointed or if you don't throw it out right before your shield gets hit, which is much more limiting), and you only get the exceptionally weak later hit. I should stress that the later hit of your fortress is so weak that if I'm a character with a good shield pressure game, I'm willing to eat that to do shield damage to you. Like, fortress is still good, including OOS. I just don't think it's some magical gift from the heavens for Bowser. Most of the cast has something just as good (though usually not specifically for OOS).
Yes they are, but Fortress has an amazing protective effect on Bowser as a combo breaker, OOS option to discourage pokes, and a simple punisher. Also, it's ability to move (and ledge-cancel overall psuhes it above any other OOS option, and IMO above any jab in the game.Ike's jab combo is just amazing. It's good for jab cancels, has nice range/priority on all hits, and if done as a full jab combo does 16% and puts the enemy at a positional disadvantage. 16% is the same thing as landing a smash with most characters, and remember that Ike kills super low. It strikes fear into everyone from Meta Knight to Ganon.
That's because you're G&W, he does it for a lot of characters (hence the slew of small disadvantages), but not G&W.It's still not the main reason I just can't see Ike as below Bowser. The most important things are Ike's range and the fact that he doesn't have nearly autolose matchups (Bowser has two: King Dedede and Ice Climbers; these are really huge and really bad and won't go away). The range is so huge. Just think about me as Mr. Game & Watch or Meta Knight or Marth with those nice disjointed attacks trying to bully the poor low tiers. Bowser can try to Whirling Fortress OOS but will run into trouble with its range; he can't fundamentally change my game plan. Ike, on the other hand, can outspace me and challenge me with moves such as his forward aerial that outrange everything I have. I can still use my other tools to play differently and exploit Ike's weaknesses of course, but Ike forces me to fundamentally change my game plan away from my baseline "beat low tier" plan. That's a really amazing thing to claim.
No, it's 100% true, you still get the guaranteed f-smash/dsmash. Basically everyone thought he lied, but BengalsRZ tested it (a Marth main, I trust his research a great deal more then the Ness boards now, because their mod purposefully withheld information) and he confirmed it. With pivot grabbing it might still be a true infinite, he was testing that, I dunoo how it worked out.Matador, as far as I know, EIDI doesn't really exist and it really is a true infinite. Lucas, however, can escape. Ness cannot.
Read the end of the thread, I think Ref admitted he lied or something.
ZSS against Wario: Bait the bike.Yeah, Zamus isnt a infinite :O, wario can bike away o/
Technically, he's tied for 8th.Hahaha, I was thinking of 13 for something else and it somehow made it into my post.
Yeah, I forgot it was a tie :|Technically, he's tied for 8th.
I don't know why, but your avatar creeps me out. Like, a lot.Yeah, I forgot it was a tie :|
Wow, a lot of bowser boarders/ex-boarders here
*Gets MreH to come*
-Bowser King
Ki shi shi shi! That was all part of my plan ....I don't know why, but your avatar creeps me out. Like, a lot.
It's pretty decent. Its 60-40 so it's an advantage for D3 but not that bad.I've been fooling around with Bowser lately...he's not as bad as I would have thought. I thought his tier placing was high at first, but it's pretty close to right. Does he do OK against DDD without the infinite?
I'm going to have to agree though, he plays faster than Ike. His overall mobility is pretty high for a big dude.
Its like Sonic.Her moves are brickwalls that Wario can't get through, meaning he has to be far enough away to not get hit by her hitboxes, which places her outside of grab range.
Also... I don't know how Falco has an infinite when he can't even grab release Wario...
I am completely objective about this discussion, I jsut thought I would add something in. There CAN be tone in just text.I actually find it quite disheartening seeing as how the internet has no 'tone of voice', what people say can be understood in ten different ways. Dark.Pch keeps getting replied to, but most of what people say sounds like trolling, even if it's not meant to sound that way.
People should word their replies better and be aware of the internet's tone. Shorter is never better when writing.
Hmmm...... MK's meta game spam A neutral, spam B neutral, rinse and repeat.That sort of happens when you have a completely metagame defining character.
whatever that one is when he has a seizure with his sword in 27 different places at once.......Neutral A.......
Are you flipping serious?
Now, now, he's clearly a newbie. He doesn't know any better.......Neutral A.......
Are you flipping serious?
I'm like 90% sure we don't have an infinite on Wario.Also... I don't know how Falco has an infinite when he can't even grab release Wario...
Hmmmm..... joke?Now, now, he's clearly a newbie. He doesn't know any better.
The good news: You're wrongI'm like 90% sure we don't have an infinite on Wario.
I'd be pretty happy to find out I was wrong, though.
Ah well. Maybe if we catch him out of his bike, or something...these are the characters who can infinite Wario:
Infinite with Double Jump:
Bowser*, Yoshi*, Zelda*, Zero Suit Samus*, Pit, R.O.B., Fox, Falco, Wolf@
Infinite without Double Jump:
Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
*: Can force a jump break on Wario on flat ground.
@: Wario gets a chance to use his double jump, but he gets grabbed before he can ascend.