The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Veggi]

I wouldn't describe mario as being all-round. He's slow and his recovery is awful

Mario's attack speed is fast, he runs at an average speed, his air movement is a bit above average, and his aerial acceleration is good. How is he slow?

 

[DoonKoon]

When I think about characters I only think about their pros. For example, the first pro that comes to mind when I think of Meta Knight is Mew2King.

What about the time you were talking about Ganon and Falcon?

Who were you thinking of?

lol, probably some ganon/falcon guy who you fought which then you automatically assumed is the best of it's kind

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

And how can Kirby lower, but still remain in high tier? He's at the lowest position in high tier, lowering even one spot means he'll be in mid tier, and he's definitely a character that belongs in high tier. : |

Kirby does not and never did belong in high tier.

I found it kind of hilarious that you talked about Pit being "telegraphed" as a reason he'll never be high tier and then you say this.

 

[Kewkky]

When I think about characters I only think about their pros. For example, the first pro that comes to mind when I think of Meta Knight is Mew2King.

I should've seen that coming.

Kirby does not and never did belong in high tier.

Uh-huh... What's the reason behind your statement? So far you have me believing nothing. If you're to counter an argument, make sure to actually have something to counter it with.

I found it kind of hilarious that you talked about Pit being "telegraphed" as a reason he'll never be high tier and then you say this.

So, I take it you believe Pit should be in A tier.

I don't see him doing better than Kirby in theory, nor in tourneys, and Pit has no tricks up his sleeve either. I have no idea how you're getting to the conclusion that Pit should be high tier and Kirby shouldn't, enlighten me with your knowledge.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Uh-huh... What's the reason behind your statement? So far you have me believing nothing. If you're to counter an argument, make sure to actually have something to counter it with.


So, I take it you believe Pit should be in A tier.

I don't see him doing better than Kirby in theory, nor in tourneys, and Pit has no tricks up his sleeve either. I have no idea you you're getting to the conclusion that Pit should be high tier and Kirby shouldn't, enlighten me with your knowledge.

I gave as much as you did saying Kirby "definitely belongs in high tier."

And funny, I don't recall saying anything about where I think Pit should be placed or who he should be above.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Pit gets results when played well and Kirby does not, in the current meta. Kirby has a lot of bad matchups in high and top and Pit does not. Isn't he 4/6 or worse with much of A tier?

Also please don't link ankoku's results thread, it isn't statistically relevant at all.

 

[Magik0722]

Also please don't link ankoku's results thread, it isn't statistically relevant at all.

wait what?

 

[adumbrodeus]

wait what?

Search "cardiovascular disease" on this thread.


Probably in general on this site but you're sure to find it quickly by searching on this thread, you will find a post that explains everything.


Edit: Last couple of posts don't have a direct link, but you can check the earliest search result.

 

[Magik0722]

i dont get what that analogy has to do with tournament results

 

[adumbrodeus]

i dont get what that analogy has to do with tournament results

Because by the same statistical logic, you should take up smoking to avoid cardiovascular disease.


It's not an analogy, it's reductio ad absurdum, which means applying the exact same logic to circumstances to another issue which is comparable in terms of the input (tracking smoking status for a relationship with cardiovascular disease vs. checking character choice for a relationship with tournament results).


Since in both cases it is modeled in terms of raw numbers, the results are that there is a correlation between being a non-smoker and having cardiovascular disease. Using the same statistical reasoning there is a correlation between using a particular character and getting certain results.


I guess that's fine, until we look a little more closely and see that there are significantly fewer smokers then non-smokers, furthermore, a much higher percentage of smokers get the disease then non-smokers.


So, there's a statistically significant relationship with being a smoker and getting cardiovascular disease, yet using raw numbers showed the opposite, why?


Because raw numbers are irrelevant, statistics can only show the difference between two populations in terms of a factor when the populations are taken into account, in other words a ratio measure.



That means that tournament results tracks CURRENT centralization (relevant spots taken in tournaments), not power in the metagame.

 

[Magik0722]

i stil dont understand, the results thread isnt being run in percentages

 

[Tien2500]

Long detailed explanation

Not that that isn't a good explanation but for a simpler one... Ankoku's tournament thread just adds up total wins not accounting for certain facts such as for instance the much greater number of MK users as opposed to other characters.

 

[Snakeee]

ignore this post

 

[Magik0722]

But cant you still see the difference in the number of each character based on how many placings they get, and not how high they place?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Do you boys take into account that the difficulty of the tourny also plays a role for placement and ranks in his thread? Using that thread to reflect how good a character really is is not totally legit.

 

[adumbrodeus]

i stil dont understand, the results thread isnt being run in percentages

That's the PROBLEM.


If it isn't run in terms of percentages then it becomes statistically irrelevant, at least for measuring character power in the metagame, as I illustrated before.

Not that that isn't a good explanation but for a simpler one... Ankoku's tournament thread just adds up total wins not accounting for certain facts such as for instance the much greater number of MK users as opposed to other characters.

That's what I did earlier in this post.

But cant you still see the difference in the number of each character based on how many placings they get, and not how high they place?

Not really, because they don't necessarily represent unique individuals, and we can't track the lower placements in the tournaments.

Furthermore, only the top of the metagame is relevant.

 

[~Lady Luck~]

The tourney itself...its difficulty is determined by what players are available to play in that area.

I need to watch for people in Washington. At least I don't have to worry about you, Dark.Pch, lol...unless you feel like coming here. o_O

The exact area of Washington I live in though doesn't get very high levels of competitional play at all.

 

[Goldenadept]

where do you live in washington? i live in monroe :/ can't get anymore lame than that XD there's NO tournies around me at all... unless i want to drive for two hours to lynwood F that!

 

[~Lady Luck~]

Poulsbo. Quite boring here. Closest to getting a "Tourney" that we can get is with our Video Game Club...and there's no prizes or anything anyway.

It's sad. A lot of them don't even know about how moves stale if overused. *Facepalm*

 

[Goldenadept]

wow i don't even know where that is XD i feel bad for you now, at least we have local ones where i work and i can mop the floor with nubs all day for money :3 move to Everett or something :D

 

[adumbrodeus]

Do you boys take into account that the difficulty of the tourny also plays a role for placement and ranks in his thread? Using that thread to reflect how good a character really is is not totally legit.

That's a good point, the only valuation of difficulty of tournament that is taken into account in Ankoku's thread is the number of people.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I still think using Ankoku's thread is better then relying on character boards for the info, or random people.

I'd rather have a solid list with at least some sort of regulations built in and somesort of weighting system for the importance of the tournament, then nothing at all.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's a good point, the only valuation of difficulty of tournament is the number of people.

Double post, but incorrect: entrance fee also plays a roll.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The tourney itself...its difficulty is determined by what players are available to play in that area.

I need to watch for people in Washington. At least I don't have to worry about you, Dark.Pch, lol...unless you feel like coming here. o_O

The exact area of Washington I live in though doesn't get very high levels of competitional play at all.

Sounds likes someone wants me to go out there. Don't think I have a reason to go out there.

That's a good point, the only valuation of difficulty of tournament is the number of people.

The number of players at a tourny dont mean difficult. The number of GOOD players from that is what matter. a tourny can have 100 people but only three or them are pros, and the rest just started the game last week or not very good at this game.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Double post, but incorrect: entrance fee also plays a roll.

The number of players at a tourny dont mean difficult. The number of GOOD players from that is what matter. a tourny can have 100 people but only three or them are pros, and the rest just started the game last week or not very good at this game.

You both misunderstood, I was agreeing with you Dark.Pch in that it's the only valuation ACCOUNTED for in the thread, I thought that was implicit based on the post that I was quoting and saying that it was a good point. I'm certainly not saying it's the only valuation.



Nidtendofreak, those both account for average difficulty, but region also plays a massive role here, also TO is extremely plays a role. Overall, without a list of every player it's difficult to value exactly how difficult the tournament is.


edit: Also, you could've edited it in instead of double posting.

 

[Magik0722]

tell me of a tournament that had 100 players and only 3 pros showed up

 

[Zankoku]

Several anime convention tournaments involved entrants bordering or over 100 yet no pro players. Luckily those seem to have dwindled down since late 2008/early 2009.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Washinton ppl. move to spokane pls.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I have a question. Why name the tiers.... S, A, B...

Can't they get rid of the "S" in tier, and make it more numerical or alphabetical. Making an "S" tier makes it confusing.

Why not order the tiers in this order...
Tier 1
Tier 2
Tier 3
Tier 4
Tier 5

or...
A Tier
B Tier
C Tier
D Tier

Its much more sensible. I know the japanese included "S" in their tier lists. But this is america! Screw what the japanese smash players think.

 

[Player-1]

I have a question. Why name the tiers.... S, A, B...

Can't they get rid of the "S" in tier, and make it more numerical or alphabetical. Making an "S" tier makes it confusing.

Why not order the tiers in this order...
Tier 1
Tier 2
Tier 3
Tier 4
Tier 5

or...
A Tier
B Tier
C Tier
D Tier

Its much more sensible. I know the japanese included "S" in their tier lists. But this is america! Screw what the japanese smash players think.

Adding an S in front of the alphabet confuses you?

 

[Ripple]

Adding an S in front of the alphabet confuses you?

its like those people who don't understand match up charts. Its as if they've never seen a chart or numbers before

I don't understand people who can't read charts

 

[Nidtendofreak]

S is often used in front of A dude. Or in front of numbers.

Heck, look at the MegaMan Battle Network series. Your virus busting level ranges from 1-10, and then S for best. In MegaMan Battle Chip Challenge, you start in E class, work your way up to A class, and then have the "final" battles in S class. The tournaments that happen afterwards are X, Y, and Z.

In Custom Robo's bonus campaign mode, you need to build back up your Custom Robo License. You start at D, work up to A, and then unlock S.

It's how it always is.

 

[deepseadiva]

Why though...?

I never got that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why though...?

I never got that.

D-A is self evident.

S probably started off standing for "Special". SS probably came around as "Super Special", and it just stuck.

Why not anyways?

 

[Flayl]

It's in Advance Wars as well, to unlock Sturm in AW2 you have to get an average rating of S in the campaign.

I always thought it stood for either Super or Supreme.

Either way it makes sense to have MK and Snake in S tier, simply because the characters that are in (the current) A tier aren't below "good" level, they're simply not as broken as S tier characters.

 

[Kewkky]

Pit isn't A tier no matter how much you people wish it to be. Wishes don't grant a character a better position on the tier list, not even tourney results (I was not going to link the tourney results page, I never do). Knowing Pit's limitations and how good he does at the maximum height of his metagame should be something anyone can imagine: he doesn't do as good as everyone else who is in A tier. He's decent, but not good enough to be in A tier. Geez.

/revives_dead_discussion_because_he_was_picked_up_to_go_to__a_smashfest_as_soon_as_he_started_writing_a_reply_to_Stauffy

 

[Ripple]

pit isn't A tier in the american metagame.

he's S tier in the the japanese metagame however

 

[<π]

japan does their teir list like every other fighting game comunity they take an average of teh characters match ups and go in order of highest to lowest.
We don't do ours like that. we try and use all of these crazy things, tourney results, Match ups, and it is voted upon by a much smaller sub set of the whole community. Sheik is way higher on any other countries lists too I believe than she is in america.

 

[Kewkky]

S tier on a place where the metagame revolves around characters with projectiles (excluding MK, although his sword and tornado pretty much make up for it)... I really don't see how Pit would ever go that high (or Fox in their tier lists) if characters are playing with the "play to win" mindset, they would use their hardest MUs against them and learn to outplay the top players of those characters with said hardest MUs.

 

[<π]

that not how most teir lists work though. it's strictly about who has the best match ups over all not who is the easiest to counter pick.