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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
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I 'heard' so too... There's only one instance where Armada played Brawl in USA, and although his Sheik did very well in singles, we've yet to see him play against the rest of the top players in USA.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
I think armada sheik is overrated.
Neo better.
Neo better.
~Lady Luck~
Smash Cadet
Yes yes, people have godly uses of characters. The tier list is pretty much useless if people have a decent difference in skill.
But many pros use Meta Knight since their skill differences aren't that different.
The popularity of Meta Knight pretty much discourages finding weaknesses on him and ENcourages finding weaknesses on other characters, which will keep him top tier for, like, forever.
But many pros use Meta Knight since their skill differences aren't that different.
The popularity of Meta Knight pretty much discourages finding weaknesses on him and ENcourages finding weaknesses on other characters, which will keep him top tier for, like, forever.
uh, meta knight is meta knight's worst matchup, you think meta knight's aren't all trying to get a competitive edge by thinking about MK's weaknesses? a mostly MK metagame by definition CAN'T discourage attempts to find weaknesses with him, when we all have to try to make the ditto our most familiar matchup
~Lady Luck~
Smash Cadet
And so, more of my noobiness is revealed, lol. Allow me to facepalm myself for not thinking about mains thinking about the weaknesses of their own characters...:embarrass
You don't need to degrade yourself in the forums everytime you make a small error. After all, you're fairly new to the forums, right? Live and learn.
Well, if you dislike theorycraft (my assumption), then you should be at all the big tourneys trying to prove that Pit is A tier. Pound's a good place to start, are you registered there? (hasn't searched for specific people in pools)
Edit: Whoopsies, double post. My bad for multi-quoting without the multi-quote button.
~Lady Luck~
Smash Cadet
Speak for yourself!
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
That's like saying, "God's more powerful", comparing pretty much anyone to NEO is unfair.
RATED
Smash Lord
LOL that's no why: surely u are biased since u duh main him and maybe have beaten people who are unexperienced at the MU compared to others MUs most people play , but that doesnt improve the character placement.
and a question: how can u consider Pit at the lvl of : ICs? Marth? Pikachu? and the other chars in the A tier. LOL!
Masterchef1123
Smash Apprentice
I think toon link is A tier
He has a good wall of defense and a good recovery.
Plus he is fast and he has tremendous mind games.
With his b forward attack short hop invicibomb
or his safe dropped dair
He has a good wall of defense and a good recovery.
Plus he is fast and he has tremendous mind games.
With his b forward attack short hop invicibomb
or his safe dropped dair
RATED
Smash Lord
IMO , Maybe and I play against Tink A LOT , even if he has a good wall of defense and good recovery. the mindgame term is used for a person who can pull it off, every character has "mindgames" potential LOL. but IDK something about Tink is just that he has a bad problem to kill really his kill options are yet kinda predictable so predictable that most opponent will die at 150% if not a heavy weight , a heavy weight against TL willl die at 200ish since is so hard to hit his kill moves. also he have problem since he needs somethings that are punishable if the opponent knows what to do : two examples : boomerang and Zair. if u do it u can get punished easily , if u don' t do it , u cant camp that well. he's that weird.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I have no clue how this at all means anything.
Rules of smashboards.
If the character is too low. There will be the folowing reasons.
1.THe character's metagame hasn't evolved enough
2. under repped.
3. They SUCK.
Number 3, unusually enough, is the reason for number 2 which is the reason for number 1.
Yes, I did put it backwards on purpose since it made me giggle.
Oh and yes, for the matter, number 3 tends to be 99% of the time true.
My argument "Sheik sucks, she doesn't win any tournaments."
Your argument "some stuff about there are some top level players"
Now if you feel no reason to actually debate my statement, or even admit to Sheik sucking.
Stop quoting.
*watches etecoon quote anyway*
Tristan_win
Not dead.
SL has this odd tendency of making long, argumenative posts, that don't actually have any relevance to brawl, like he just dances around talking about the actual game as long as he can...it's like the debate equivalent of fighting DMG on brinstar D:
See, the thing about 'top-level character mainers' is that it doesn't necessarily mean 'top level player'... A top level mainer is a person who knows how to use the character to its full potential, whereas a top-level player is a person who wins tourneys with their characters by applying everything.
Now, let me rephrase the previous arguments... I don't see any top-level Sheik mainers winning against top-level players..
Now, let me rephrase the previous arguments... I don't see any top-level Sheik mainers winning against top-level players..
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Exegeration I know, but NEO is a pretty amazing player, saying Armada's sheik isn't as good as NEO's doesn't really say that much, you know what I mean....
Now, if you were saying his Sheik isn't as good as mine, he'd have problems, but I think that 99.9% of the Brawl community is ok with being described as "not as good as NEO" in general.
Not saying he's god almighty, but he's pretty amazing.
BlackSmoke
Smash Cadet
Wow, who is this NeO? Is it sad this is the first I'm hearing of him? I don't lurk alot, maybe that's why.
He's just some Marth player. *gets flamed*
I don't see what's so special about him though, maybe it's a Marth Boards' thing, like Sonic's steak.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
... He's extremely good, even though he rarely attends tournaments.
Either him or MikeHaze is the best Marth on the planet currently (no offense Mr. R, you're amazing too).
But he REALLY needs to show up to tournaments more.
JamietheAuraUser
Smash Lord
"Silly rabbit, queers are for tiers.
Wait that's not right..."
Wait that's not right..."
MysteriousSilver
Smash Ace
The disagreement has evolved far beyond the original point (I was never trying to prove he's A tier... just that he's not as telegraphed or shut down as you think he is), and I really don't think the quote wars are going anywhere.
At any rate, you play Pits who see the character differently than I do, and I DO think that Pit has a solid ground game. If nothing else, he has the tools to pop his opponent up into the air and do stuff from there. There are only a handful of characters who make me feel like I'm at a disadvantage close to them (Namely MK, Snake, GW... Can't get in there against Marth or Oli), I don't feel like the majority of the cast has any sort of major advantage over my ground game. And most of the time, I don't have to -be- there if I don't want to.
I'd put my money where my mouth is, but honestly, I'm pretty *** at brawl.
I kinda feel like you're just out to prove me wrong ._.
At any rate, you play Pits who see the character differently than I do, and I DO think that Pit has a solid ground game. If nothing else, he has the tools to pop his opponent up into the air and do stuff from there. There are only a handful of characters who make me feel like I'm at a disadvantage close to them (Namely MK, Snake, GW... Can't get in there against Marth or Oli), I don't feel like the majority of the cast has any sort of major advantage over my ground game. And most of the time, I don't have to -be- there if I don't want to.
I'd put my money where my mouth is, but honestly, I'm pretty *** at brawl.
Nah, I'm not. /disagrees
This is true, I probably play against Pit/use Pit/ think about Pit differently than you do, otherwise we would've never had a quote discussion.
Nah, don't worry, I don't need tourney results to debate against anyone. As long as they stand by their point and not make outrageous statements, they're cool in my book.
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
Sheik is good. She just takes an experienced player to play her well. Lots of her moves lead to h automatic, “what are they going to do next, jump or airdodge?” Her throws are really good set-ups by the way. F-throw is amazing vs Snake. Don't forget her grab realease DACUS shenanigans.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
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Oh common dude. You and I both know that's not always true.
It doesn't really apply to Sheik in this case. I'd argue very adamantly that she's under-repped mostly because she's so difficult to use effectively in comparison to the other characters around her level, among other less important reasons...
Like... she actually takes a good bit of technical skill to use if you want to take full advantage of ALL of her options- not technical in the sense of pushing a ton of buttons in a specific order as fast as you can, but technical as far as very precise spacing, timing, and movements go.
So few people want to put that much effort into this GOOD character simply (and sadly) because there are far easier characters to use higher up on the tier list.
This in turn effects her development like you pointed out, which I'm actually very fine with because using an underdeveloped character only leaves more to be discovered later on.
And that's just part of it. I don't care enough to get into much else at the moment. >.>
Sheik is an option rich character.
Characters like this will always have the most potential in the right hands.
Characters like this will always have the most potential in the right hands.
Browny
Smash Hater
SL i think its more simple than that
bad characters are bad because they suck
If people cant prove that character doesnt suck, its bad. Also applicable to attacks/techniques.
under-repped, under-developed metagame is merely a euphemism for being a bad character. There is no 'future' tier list. If no one can at this point in time, prove a character doesnt suck by actually winning a lot with them, then the character sucks. Do you know why MK dair doesnt suck in actual gameplay, not theory? because its not bad. Marios dtilt sucks because its bad in actual gameplay. No one proves it doesnt suck because it is indeed bad. Things that suck in actual gameplay are bad. Apply to characters/moves as neccesary.
bad characters are bad because they suck
If people cant prove that character doesnt suck, its bad. Also applicable to attacks/techniques.
under-repped, under-developed metagame is merely a euphemism for being a bad character. There is no 'future' tier list. If no one can at this point in time, prove a character doesnt suck by actually winning a lot with them, then the character sucks. Do you know why MK dair doesnt suck in actual gameplay, not theory? because its not bad. Marios dtilt sucks because its bad in actual gameplay. No one proves it doesnt suck because it is indeed bad. Things that suck in actual gameplay are bad. Apply to characters/moves as neccesary.
Wow an actual intelligent post about SheikOh common dude. You and I both know that's not always true.
It doesn't really apply to Sheik in this case. I'd argue very adamantly that she's under-repped mostly because she's so difficult to use effectively in comparison to the other characters around her level, among other less important reasons...
Like... she actually takes a good bit of technical skill to use if you want to take full advantage of ALL of her options- not technical in the sense of pushing a ton of buttons in a specific order as fast as you can, but technical as far as very precise spacing, timing, and movements go.
So few people want to put that much effort into this GOOD character simply (and sadly) because there are far easier characters to use higher up on the tier list.
This in turn effects her development like you pointed out, which I'm actually very fine with because using an underdeveloped character only leaves more to be discovered later on.
And that's just part of it. I don't care enough to get into much else at the moment. >.>
......didn't know that could happen in this thread.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I am sorry but I shall be rather blunt.
You.Are.An.Idiot.
okay now that we established that, let me explain it to you.
It does not matter that there are top level Sheik mainers, or that the best Sheik user does not actually main her. What matters is that they win tournaments. The top level Sheik players do not win tournaments, therefore, Sheik, sucks. I know it is hard to understand something that is rather simple, and basic in what is said, but do try to keep up.
Fact of the matter is, it is you who is going off on another tangent that has not at all contradicted my statement.
No one cares if there are top level Sheik users. Oh great, now we know the potential of a BAD character.
Bad characters DONT win.
Top level players using BAD characters dont win tournaments against top level players using GOOD characters. (Flukes are the exception that prove the rule.
Edit: missed Dan's post. Even worse, he actually addresses the statements placed before him.
I would say YAY AN INTELLECTUAL POST TO STOP MY TROLLING, but I am rather tired.
Correct, that is why I said 99% of the time.
Well there are two ways of looking at it.It doesn't really apply to Sheik in this case. I'd argue very adamantly that she's under-repped mostly because she's so difficult to use effectively in comparison to the other characters around her level, among other less important reasons...
Like... she actually takes a good bit of technical skill to use if you want to take full advantage of ALL of her options- not technical in the sense of pushing a ton of buttons in a specific order as fast as you can, but technical as far as very precise spacing, timing, and movements go.
So few people want to put that much effort into this GOOD character simply (and sadly) because there are far easier characters to use higher up on the tier list.
This in turn effects her development like you pointed out, which I'm actually very fine with because using an underdeveloped character only leaves more to be discovered later on.
And that's just part of it. I don't care enough to get into much else at the moment. >.>
You suck because well, you're really bad at everything.
OR you suck because everyone else is better.
Sheik has plenty of potential, that in itself s very obvious.
The issue however is that even if such potential is realized, where does that leave Sheik?
Brawl, as we know, is far from difficult to master in terms of tech skill requirement. So surely, we wont really need to delve into that area.
Its simply because in every other area, there are characters who are just flat out better.
So to say "My god Sheik has soooooooo much potential." isn't entirely accurate.
It is far more accurate to say "Sheik has potential, but because of the existence of characters who are flat out better than her, if she were to rise, it wouldnt be by a significant amount."
When you factor in her bad matchups, it only makes her look worse.
When a character gets hard countered, or is on the border line of one, it damages their viability.
So its as I said, Sheik sucks.
For the same reason that Sonic and Mario and Fox suck.
Since while they have all these neat little tricks and so much stuff to them, in truth, everyone is flat out better.
So if Sheik does rise, it wont be to a completely different tier.
SL i think its more simple than that
bad characters are bad because they suck
If people cant prove that character doesnt suck, its bad. Also applicable to attacks/techniques.
under-repped, under-developed metagame is merely a euphemism for being a bad character. There is no 'future' tier list. If no one can at this point in time, prove a character doesnt suck by actually winning a lot with them, then the character sucks. Do you know why MK dair doesnt suck in actual gameplay, not theory? because its not bad. Marios dtilt sucks because its bad in actual gameplay. No one proves it doesnt suck because it is indeed bad. Things that suck in actual gameplay are bad. Apply to characters/moves as neccesary.
THIS MAN GETS IT! LISTEN TO HIM!
I'm kind of with mars on this one... so few people have any idea about sheik (well... most of the non S teirs actually)
The best sheiks all come from the hardest regions. OR don't use sheik competitively in favor of higher tiered characters.
Put me or any of the the other sheiks in weaker regions and we'd place every tourney. So by popular definition that would that make sheik a good character. Would that make her a different character? no.
As fas as bad match ups... they really aren't that bad.
The best sheiks all come from the hardest regions. OR don't use sheik competitively in favor of higher tiered characters.
Put me or any of the the other sheiks in weaker regions and we'd place every tourney. So by popular definition that would that make sheik a good character. Would that make her a different character? no.
As fas as bad match ups... they really aren't that bad.
Tbh from A tier I think Pit is better than R.O.B, Kirby, Pika and GW. He's also definitely better than D3
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Wait...Better than DDD?
I agreed with the others...but...
I agreed with the others...but...
I don't even agree with G&W and Kirby, much less D3!
What makes you think Pit is better than those? As far as I know these characters have it easier than Pit in a couple of more important aspects of the game besides 'ledge options', like punishment, follow-ups, recovery (there's practically no possibility of a Kirby/G&W/DDD gimp, but Pit only has 1 WoI), even viable killing options (Kirby's main spacer is also one of his main killers, and it's definitely a great spacer... Bair).
I don't see where you're going with this, man. Give me something to digest, I can't just change my mind if you scratch characters off like that.
What makes you think Pit is better than those? As far as I know these characters have it easier than Pit in a couple of more important aspects of the game besides 'ledge options', like punishment, follow-ups, recovery (there's practically no possibility of a Kirby/G&W/DDD gimp, but Pit only has 1 WoI), even viable killing options (Kirby's main spacer is also one of his main killers, and it's definitely a great spacer... Bair).
I don't see where you're going with this, man. Give me something to digest, I can't just change my mind if you scratch characters off like that.
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