The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[MysteriousSilver]

A few things to drop in about the last few pages:

WoI is very gimpable... Pit in general is very difficult to gimp

Kirby's recovery is gimpable... by Pit, at least. Mirror shield is wonderful.

Sheik does not feel anywhere near as bad as the other characters she's near on the tier list to me.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I noticed that too about ShadowLink. He's soooo closed minded, it's like he has a mental disorder. "Your too slow"... in the head. lol.

It is you're not your, please do use the proper word.
It defeats the point of insulting me when you show yourself to be incapable of simple English grammar.

 

[Kewkky]

WoI is very gimpable... Pit in general is very difficult to gimp

Yes, gimping him is quite situational... If only he didn't fall as fast as non-lightweights, he could preserve his jumps longer. This is the reason why DDD runs out of jumps quickly while offstage, too much effort on maintaining a height, and with Pit only having 3 jumps, he uses them all immediately. Pit's best options is ALWAYS to recover from a ledge, be it gliding under the stage after getting knocked away, or grabbing the nearest ledge even if the opponent might expect it. If he tries anything else, he's only setting up the gimping scenario against him by wasting his glide and 3 jumps.

Pit overall might be hard to gimp, but he still is gimpable, and much more gimpable in more situations that many other characters in the A tier. That's what I'm trying to say... Hell, even DDD can recover safer because of how high his upB takes him, how he can cancel it and fall instantly to a ledge/evade an attack, redo his upB if knocked out of it, and have super armor while rising... Something Pit can't do with his.

I still want a detailed explanation on why Pit should be better than DDD, but R@vyn's the one that said that, so yeah...

Kirby's recovery is gimpable... by Pit, at least. Mirror shield is wonderful.

Yes, his recovery is gimpable... But unlike Pit, he's floaty so he can preserve jumps longer than Pit can, meaning that unless it's as a last resort, Kirby should always keep his upB unused against reflecting chaacters like Mario and Pit. Pit doesn't even have a spike nor a semi-spike, so Kirby should never find himself recovering with his upB. And even if he does need to use upB, this game has an auto-sweetspot on the ledges so that Kirby can use his upB at the best possible height were he WILL grab the ledge, and WILL NOT be reflected to his death. And unlike Pit, if you hit him, he gets another chance to use his upB, as well as recover from higher since Pit can't send him lower.

Sheik does not feel anywhere near as bad as the other characters she's near on the tier list to me.

I agree that Sheik is better than Sonic, Wolf, maybe even Luigi (but only in terms of damage output, Luigi kills better and their recoveries pretty much have the same weight to me in how gimpable they both are)... But she isn't better than Peach.

 

[Jon Farron]

Peach is higher than ness&lucas?


Thats not right O_o

 

[Kewkky]

Peach is higher than ness&lucas?


Thats not right O_o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrtW3PP8WXY

Spoiler

if only ness/lucas would play as effective as peach plays

 

[Jon Farron]

^
the link wouldnt work...

 

[Kewkky]

^
the link wouldnt work...

I just tried it and it works o_o

Well, search on YouTube for "undairrated"... You'll know what that is.

 

['Kicks']

The pit discussion I feel never goes very far. And I think it is because his meta game is so underdeveloped the pit community does not have much to rally around in terms of facts right now.

I do not really have an opinion on where his placing should be other than perhaps a few spots up. But this cant happen until his meta improves and he gets some more rep.

Some points on pit I would like to make.

He does have a spike. Two in fact but one is so rare that it does not matter at all. His Dtilt can be hard to set up but is a pretty powerful spike. It works on ledges and on platforms like delfino and parts or RC as well as parts of Halberd. Situationally; if the mirror shield misses the kirby and the kirby stays on the ledge they are open to getting spiked.

His arrow is a good projectile but not great. It can be charged and controlled in flight, but it is easy to defend on stage. Yes it can hit from multiple angles but it takes too long to setup and has too much lag on both sides of the move. I would not say it is the most versatile either. I think the most versatile projectile award goes to diddy.

He does have killing power in a few moves such as Bair, Fsmash and Dsmash. If he is not hitting the killing moves however he has plenty of options to set a character up for a gimp. Fair and the first hit of Dsmash will launch the opponent horizontally and set them up for gimps. So long as the opponent is not launched too high pit can gimp with arrows and wing renewal tactics, before finishing them off with a mirror shield gimp. They are very useful techniques to employ when using pit but overall nothing game changing.

For his WoI it is gimpable but not as much as people might think. If he gets hit out of the startup of his move he can use it again. During these frames the push effect still occurs and gives you a little space. So if in an emergency you have to use it close to an opponent that is another option.

Overall I see pit improving in the future. As his meta game develops I think he will turn more matchups into his favor. Too many of his MU's are even for right now and I blame that on the lack of development. Right now though for only his pros (dark peach do not flame me I am only presenting the reasons why i think he should move up two-4 slots so I am not listing cons) I think he should be labeled as having decent kill moves, Great camping ability, great ledge game, good off stage game and great gimpimg ability. He still does suffer from some harsh MU' and some bad cons though. So as of right now I do not see him in A tier.

Pit is also not better than D3. Not by a long shot. D3 is suited better for brawl based on the dominant mechanics of the game. Pit v. D3 MU can go pretty even though. Seeing as how they can both camp effectively. It is hard for D3 to chaingrab pit for some reason and pit does very well fighting larger characters. I would say the MU for that is just slightly in D3's favor. My experience with this matchup is multiple friendlies and a few tourny matches with lain in which I have had sucess with.

I also think pit suffer's from slightly bad MU's from both pika and G@W

 

[Nitrix]

I think Pit suffers most from the fact that nobody plays him. I hear lots of people say he has potential yet nobody talented really tries to push him to the limit. The only person that I have seen that is trying new things with Pit is Koolaid.

In the Pit vs Pika matchup I think it is fairly even. Maybe slightly Pika`s favour. Its all about who can control the projectiles and Pit has to be pretty pro to reliably hit a sneaky Pika. Pit does a pretty sucky job at approaching Pikachu so I think making Pikachu approach is one of the main challenges of this matchup.

Pit is also hard to gimp. Between gliding, jumps and WOI I think he has enough options to fight predictability

 

[Kewkky]

I like Kicks' summary, it's exactly what I wanted. And there's only one minor thing in his wall of text that makes me feel weird inside, but it's all bias on my part so I'd rather not mention it. I can agree to that.

 

['Kicks']

well i was glad to add clarification to the topic. I am interested in what it was that you didnt agree with though. Biased or not lol

 

[Kewkky]

well i was glad to add clarification to the topic. I am interested in what it was that you didnt agree with though. Biased or not lol

This part:

He does have a spike. Two in fact but one is so rare that it does not matter at all. His Dtilt can be hard to set up but is a pretty powerful spike. It works on ledges and on platforms like delfino and parts or RC as well as parts of Halberd. Situationally; if the mirror shield misses the kirby and the kirby stays on the ledge they are open to getting spiked.

The dtilt's spike is waaaay too situational to be relied upon as a spike. And it only works if opponents are near the ledges, so if they're recovering in the air a ways away from the ledge, if you decide on hitting them due to them being able to return because they won't get gimped by your mirror shield/arrows, they will recover even better. He can't hold the opponent back from returning on-stage, no reliable spikes when he needs them (aerial spikes are the most reliable).

I said biased cuz I'm pretty sure Pits spike with it all the time no prob or something, yet I still felt like it is too unreliable to even be mentioned (like Luigi's taunt spike).

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Doesnt' take anywhere near as long as Weegee's, and most of the time when I mess it up, I hit with the normal Dtilt anyways. It is hard as hell to set up, though.

The speed Pit falls at is pretty irrelevant if you're gliding, which gives you an absurd amount of control over where Pit recovers to. And not just the ledge, but anywhere from the ledge, to the center of the stage, to the opposite ledge. Plus, he can shoot arrows to make an area safer for him to recover to.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I do agree that Pit does have alot of potential,I do agree that pit does have the potential to rise up in the tierlist.
The issue I think is the fact that his range is such a glaring weakness despite his strengths.
He has a good projectile, excellent recovery, but when it comes down to when he needs to kill or when he faces an opponent like Marth, that weakness of his close range game sticks out that much more. It doesn't really help when his kill moves do have poor range (though he does have glide step to improve it. ).

I think it isnt that no one wants to use him, but more that because of that one silly weakness, that it puts people off from using him, when really, its not as bad as it would seem.

 

[Browny]

So I noticed a trend... consider characters who are all considered to be rising in the next tier list

marth
falco
fox
sheik
IC
falcon
peach

and characters who were top tier in melee...

look around them, most of the characters around them are considered worse and are predicted to drop to make room for their rise. Few of those characters have shown actual reason for a rise. Is it that the novelty of new characters is finally wearing off? are people either switching to MK, or to an old melee top tier?

idk that group of characters seems to stand out.

 

[-Mars-]

All that shows is that you think about silly things like conspiracies a little too much, plus Pit will be rising so your theory is fail.

 

[Browny]

Ill be extremely dissapointed (as if it was even possible anymore) if pit rose solely because perception of him changed from seeing pit high tier in japan. he continues to perform merely average in the western world, and this tier list is meant to represent that. As i said before, there is no 'future' tier list. reasons for pit rising at the moment seem to be either pure theory or should never be considered imo.

 

['Kicks']

Yeah shadowlink is right in the regard that top level players do not use him often because of one or two major weakness'. Which really blows seeing as how these players are the ones who constantly want to expand and improve their character. So since the highly intelligent and highly motivated/competetive players are overlooking some of the characters they do not get developed. Which in pit's case is very unfortunate.

@ KewkkyThe Dtilt spike is situational. When I said hard to set up I should have clarified that the situations are rare for it to occur. However on stages like Delfino for instance if someone is below the level trying to recover or even trying to shark you, after practice and some general familiarity with the move it is pretty easy to spike someone. So a sharking MK, pit, kirby,jiggs or D3 or even the recovering snake can be spiked from a safe spot. The same goes for someone hanging off the ledge after their frames of invincibility die. It is a powerful spike that kills at stupid low percentages for him.

No it is not reliable, especially not as reliable as aerial spike's. But it is still a more viable killing weapon than many people know. I would not overlook it were I an opponent, but then again it is usually pretty easy to stay out of a situation where someone can be spike from it.

also once you are near perfect with aiming his arrows, if someone was not launched high enough pit can usually gimp them out of a stock. Whether is be six to seven arrows hitting in succesion, Wing renewal stunts or just a well timed mirror shield

@MysteriousSilver. Glide attack can be a good recovery option but it also has a major con. Yes there is a highly prioritized attack out of the glide and when you hit the ground us pit mainers have a few shenanigans we can do but when returning to the stage you can be punished. It elongates his body and makes it easier for characters with an aerial spike to spike him. And pit has poor meteor recovery so if he gets spiked even if he does not die it puts us in a very bad situation.


on a side note: how **** would pit be with an aerial spike lol?

 

[Shaya]

I don't really know about Falcon going up...

And I'd say Lucario will go up.
Because he's MARTH WITH A PROJECTILE MAFUDGERS.

 

['Kicks']

Ill be extremely dissapointed (as if it was even possible anymore) if pit rose solely because perception of him changed from seeing pit high tier in japan. he continues to perform merely average in the western world, and this tier list is meant to represent that. As i said before, there is no 'future' tier list. reasons for pit rising at the moment seem to be either pure theory or should never be considered imo.

You have to think though it is not just the perception of pit that is changing. Masashi brought to light some unnoticed playstlye and character attributes pit has to the western world. So the western players have put that into their game and started to adapt. Pit players on average are starting to do better and learn theri MU's. And even though it is only slight developments the players are getting better and placing higher. See vex and koolaid for reference.

I do not think pit should go up atm but here soon after some more work is put into his meta game I do think he will rise

 

[Blackrider213]

I was under the impression that Masashi plays very campy with Pit?

 

[da K.I.D.]

masashi is the second campiest pit main out there.

R@vyn camps enough to lose and get beat because hes offstage ALL THE TIME.

Masashi camps enough to make people do dumb stuff so he can beat them.

 

[CaliburChamp]

masashi is the second campiest pit main out there.

R@vyn camps enough to lose and get beat because hes offstage ALL THE TIME.

Masashi camps enough to make people do dumb stuff so he can beat them.

Camping works against certain characters very well. However, most characters have a high priority move that can cancel out Pit's arrows like, like MK's tornado.

And I would say Pit off stage is his a strong point, ledge camping, spamming arrows, mirror shielding, flying under the stage very easily.

And whoever says Pit get's easily gimped is dumb. If the Pit player is experienced and smart, he rarely gets gimped, so he can fly under most stages, Up-air them and plank. Pit can also speed up his upward movement with WoI by rapidly tapping right, left, right, left, back and worth, it makes WoI rise faster during the start up of the move.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Considering the amount of aerial movement you have when gliding, if you let someone spike you out of a glide, you messed up.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Considering the amount of aerial movement you have when gliding, if you let someone spike you out of a glide, you messed up.

Tried it yourself? Its quite hilarious actually, it only reinforces the fact that the player doing it is bad

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Pit has great recovery, why are we even having this discussion? lol

 

[Kewkky]

I don't really know about Falcon going up...

And I'd say Lucario will go up.
Because he's MARTH WITH A PROJECTILE MAFUDGERS.

I said this once before, Shaya, but all I got was negative responses from people claiming that Lucario can't be compared to Marth because blah blah blah, and I just moved onto some other discussion.

 

[phi1ny3]

rofl he's more like Melee marth, uthrow CG (on some chars), lolwut range, except minus the speed and with a big blue ball.

 

[ShadowLink84]

rofl he's more like Melee marth, uthrow CG (on some chars), lolwut range, except minus the speed and with a big blue ball.

He is also capable of speaking English.

 

[Espy Rose]

rofl he's more like Melee marth, uthrow CG (on some chars), lolwut range, except minus the speed and with a big blue ball.

...Sonic?

Since when could Lucario's neutral B shoot Sonics?

 

[ShadowLink84]

...Sonic?

Since when could Lucario's neutral B shoot Sonics?

Are you color blind?
O-o

 

[Espy Rose]

Are you color blind?
O-o

Don't answer my question with a question?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Don't answer my question with a question?

My question would lead to your answer would it not?

 

[Espy Rose]

My question would lead to your answer would it not?

.......no?

 

[Melomaniacal]

.......no?

Yes, it would.
Questions over.

 

[Espy Rose]

Yes, it would.
Questions over.

And...you're absolutely positive?

 

[Justblaze647]

rofl he's more like Melee marth, uthrow CG (on some chars), lolwut range, except minus the speed and with a big blue ball.

...Sonic?

Since when could Lucario's neutral B shoot Sonics?

Are you color blind?
O-o

Don't answer my question with a question?

My question would lead to your answer would it not?

.......no?

Yes, it would.
Questions over.

I love smashboards

<3

 

[<π]

good to know

Justblaze67

 

[yummynbeefy]

R@vyn gettin yo name out there

 

[ShadowLink84]

.......no?

Possibly?
<_<