The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Coffee™]

D3 is really limited as a character. He does great versus the mid to low tiers but when you get into the higher tiers he just doesn't do that great matchup wise. He loses to Pika, MK, ICs, Falco, ZSS, Oli and has signifigant problems with Pit, Diddy and Fox. Not sure if those last 3 are really in their favor but either way its more problems than Pit has.

I don't even agree with G&W and Kirby, much less D3!

What makes you think Pit is better than those? As far as I know these characters have it easier than Pit in a couple of more important aspects of the game besides 'ledge options', like punishment, follow-ups, recovery (there's practically no possibility of a Kirby/G&W/DDD gimp, but Pit only has 1 WoI), even viable killing options (Kirby's main spacer is also one of his main killers, and it's definitely a great spacer... Bair).

I don't see where you're going with this, man. Give me something to digest, I can't just change my mind if you scratch characters off like that.

You underrate Pit's ability to recover. Sure he has one "Woi" but getting hit out of it is extremely uncommon. He has more mixups to recover than most characters. Kirby is mediocre. Any character that can reliably get around Bair probably beats or at least goes even with Kirby. G&W is ok but I think he has a lot of problems with approaching a lot of characters without getting subsequently punished.

 

[RATED]

Tbh from A tier I think Pit is better than R.O.B, Kirby, Pika and GW. He's also definitely better than D3

LOL! better than DDD TBH... wow D3 has his "bad things" but he's better than most chars of the cast for SURE. even if Rob Metagame hasnt advanced that much compared to most chars he's pretty good and belongs to A tier, better than Pikachu wow this talks about being biased, better than kirby LOL he's not period. GaW even if he haven't changed that much he's good his air game is pretty good , kills quick , has a Superb Up B LOL, gimpability and he's pretty good at juggles. Pit is good but not A tier , maybe B tier but that's it.


edit : DDD and ZSS is a pretty even matchup.

DDD vs Pika is even if both chars knows how to do and that's saying DDD playing kinda campy.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I cant tell if R@vyn is trolling or being serious. Either way its highly amusing how ironic and outlandish such assumptions can be made in just 2 posts.

Which leads me to believe hes never played those matches before as a D3 and experienced the MU himself.

 

[Coffee™]

edit : DDD and ZSS is a pretty even matchup.

No it really isn't.

DDD vs Pika is even if both chars knows how to do and that's saying DDD playing kinda campy.

How does D3 even play campy vs Pikachu, a character that camps way better than he does.

Which leads me to believe hes never played those matches before as a D3 and experienced the MU himself.

Why do I need to play it? I've seen both matchups played numerous times from people that are easily considered top 3 of each character.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I REALLY doubt Pit is better than all the characters you mentioned. Pit has mediocre range, decent camping, is bad at killing and has a gimpable recovery. Unlike kirby, GaW and dedede. Dedede lives forever, makes half the cast unviable, bair, range, damaging grabs, tech chasing, etc.

 

[Magik0722]

I REALLY doubt Pit is better than all the characters you mentioned. Pit has mediocre range, decent camping, is bad at killing and has a gimpable recovery. Unlike kirby, GaW and dedede. Dedede lives forever, makes half the cast unviable, bair, range, damaging grabs, tech chasing, etc.

I dont think pits recovery is gimpable, unless the stage is yoshis island or something






also yeah, ZSS vs DDD is even, if not in favor for ZSS

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ Let me rephrase it then. More gimpable than most. And more gimpable than G@W's, Dedede's and Kirby's.

 

[RATED]

No it really isn't.

I use DDD and I play ZSS a lot , I know how the MU is , u dont.



How does D3 even play campy vs Pikachu, a character that camps way better than he does.

Battlefield or another stage that's not Final destination with even only one platform DDD has a lot of jumps and great range, u got to remember that.


Why do I need to play it? I've seen both matchups played numerous times from people that are easily considered top 3 of each character.

Playing it and watching it is not the same , u are just watching final conclusion that comes with every attack or dodge , u are not seeing whats on people's mind on most situation of the match.


here u go

 

[<π]

Coming from another sheik it is conciderably harder to gimp pit than one one expect. his gulide is redicous he can go under stages with his upB to avoid off stage conflict all together or recover high like snake does using his disjointed aerials or dodge to at the very least land on stage and get his jumps, glide and up B back.
I think pits kill problem is very much glamorized he has decent kill moves. When you talk about his range I think you have to also concider his moves are disjointed meaning he can attack where a lot of the cast is attack and trade or beat a lot of people. People are hyping up his flaws way~ too much, yeah they are there yeah.

I don't think pit is better than D3, D3 has that weight a great defensive option in his grab which leads to a great tech chase game and as low percent kills.

Kirby isn't horrible but he is was too easy to camp. he has no long range option and lack luster lock down. bair is great, but you can presur people down with it, it just has too much lag over all to be used like that. His ground speed and air speed just kill it for him letting pretty much anyone with better close range option OR better long range options be able to really control and set the pase for the match

GaW has similar problems to Kirby except with slower easier to react to kill moves. GaW is harder to gimp than kirby

I don't know anything about rob.

 

[Kewkky]

No it really isn't.

Says the guy who thinks Pit is better than D3.

How does D3 even play campy vs Pikachu, a character that camps way better than he does.

Pivot grabs, waddle dee spam, shieldcamping, aircamping... Anything that is completely the opposite of rushing.

Why do I need to play it? I've seen both matchups played numerous times from people that are easily considered top 3 of each character.

Because videos =/= experience. Remember that.

 

[DanGR]

ShadowLink84, basically you're saying this?:

"Sheik is bad until players prove she's better. It's clear she has potential, but it doesn't matter until her players actually do something with it in a tournament environment. Even if that happens, it's very clear which characters will ALWAYS be better than Sheik anyways, so she won't rise very far even if she did do better in tournaments."

Potential? She is a good character right now. I'll point out a few of her good qualities and why they haven't been explored to their fullest yet.

1. She has a ton of options that work in different areas for different purposes. A lack of rep has been the reason her players haven't firmly decided which of those options are better, generally speaking of course. Read Shaya's latest post in this thread.
2. Most of her players haven't mastered boost smashing yet. (Because of the difficulty in doing it consistency. I do think many players will have a success rate of over 90% in the future though.) This AT plays a major, MAJOR role in her punishment and killing game- separate things, mind you.
3. A large majority of her players still don't know how to use her chain to its fullest. (In effect she is actually able to CAMP some characters pretty reliably with it. (You can tie her chain jacket to this point, which could potentially swing close matchups far into her favor, or disadvantageous matchups (like MK) much closer to even. Does anyone still not realize how good this is? T_T)

It's very apparent through-out the Sheik community how little resemblance there is among each of her players' play styles. This is because all of the above (Mainly #1) and many more I didn't mention.

The community still doesn't know the best, most reliable way to combo at low percents, and which attacks to kill with at higher ones- which to save until then. We're not certain if it's best to decay her forward tilt as much as it takes to be able to combo into upsmash later because of the punishment one could get by limiting oneself with this killing strategy. We're not certain about a lot of things.

If all of that isn't a good representation of not just to how much potential Sheik has, (as "potential" is limited to a possibility) but how much further she definitely IS GOING TO advance as a character, then I don't know what is.

That said, I don't know Sheik well enough yet to go much beyond what I've already stated, so I'll leave it to the Sheik experts. I will say that just because a character hasn't been consistently performing well in tournaments, that doesn't mean they're bad. You have to look at everything surrounding the character- in this case, she's a good character with poor rep.

edit: I have to admit, I don't know as much about Sheik as I'd like to, yet. I'm ready to listen if anyone has any corrections to make.

 

[Nefarious B]

I mean, Ravyn lives in the same region as Nick Riddle and Seibrik/CO18... I feel like he's probably seen the ZSS DDD matchup at high levels

 

[Coffee™]

Pivot grabs, waddle dee spam, shieldcamping, aircamping... Anything that is completely the opposite of rushing.

All of these are horrible vs Pika for D3.

Because videos =/= experience. Remember that.

I'm not talking about watching videos. I'm talking about watching players first hand and talking to same players about matchups.

 

[<π]

and Esamis in FL as well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sheik is an option rich character.
Characters like this will always have the most potential in the right hands.

Yet, everyone still thinks sonic is bad...

EDIT
R@vyn is dumb, and people should really stop paying attention to him.

 

[<π]

Yet, everyone still thinks sonic is bad...

Soniic is bad. bad air game bad approach game. easy to camp. light.
He has all these mind gamey tricks which are neat, but they are solid reliable ways to apply presure and rack damage. At least thats how I view it.

EDIT
R@vyn is dumb, and people should really stop paying attention to him.

I hate it when people do this. Don't literally attack the argument. counter his points until he understands what he is saying is wrong or just don't argue with him at all.
Whats worse is using someones past argument as some sort of proof his future ones have no validity. Thats not how you win a debate... at least an intelligent one.

 

[Espy Rose]

Yet, everyone still thinks sonic is bad...

What the balls are you talking about? Sonic's horrible.

Soniic is bad. bad air game bad approach game. easy to camp. light.
He has all these mind gamey tricks which are neat, but they are solid reliable ways to apply presure and rack damage. At least thats how I view it.

This. However, I'd change the "bad air game" and "bad approach" comments to "unreliable air game" and "unreliable approach(es)", though there is the possibility that both words can be interchangeable (Sonic's bad BECAUSE his moves are unreliable, for example). Though the easy to camp thing is kinda odd to hear, I could see it as true when the opponent is Meta Knight, a ledge camping Game and Watch, Falco, Wario, Snake, or Dedede.

Hey, all of those characters are prevalent in tournaments. GGs, Sonic.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I was right, when people bash or hype a character in here, they alwaysgo about ether the cons or pros. Never both. All I been seeing in here. It's suppose to be about both. Thats how you discuss how good or bad a character is. Not mbashing or going on about 1-2 things and then be like' This character is the **** and A tier/fails and straight up sucks.

When are people gonna learn? It's seriously stupid.

 

[RATED]

I mean, Ravyn lives in the same region as Nick Riddle and Seibrik/CO18... I feel like he's probably seen the ZSS DDD matchup at high levels

seen! that's my point , he haven't played it for what he's saying now, also just bcuz he lives in the same region as Seibrik/CO18 or any top lvl player , wont make Ravyn have instantly the reason... *facepalm* bcuz someone may Live in the same region of M2k and that someone could say that MK ***** and destroy Snake thing that's not true...

 

[mountain_tiger]

[/COLOR]Soniic is bad. bad air game bad approach game. easy to camp. light.

I don't really know enough about Sonic to comment on most of that, but I'd like to point out that Sonic is NOT light. He's middleweight (19th out of 39 characters).

 

[CaliburChamp]

I'd rank Pit in the 2nd tier. I just don't see how Pit can out do DDD and Pikachu. CO18 (DDD), and Esam (Pika) place better at tournaments than any Pit players do in FL.

Also, seeing how Brawl is more "balanced" than melee. There should be less individual tiers. Like this...
Condensed Version (My tier list)
Tier 1: Metaknight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Wario, Falco, King Dedede, Marth, Ice Climbers, Pikachu
Tier 2: Mr. G&W, Zero Suit Samus, Olimar, Pit, R.O.B., Toon Link, Lucario, Kirby
Tier 3: Donkey Kong, Squirtle, Peach, Luigi, Fox, Wolf, Shiek/Zelda, Shiek, Ness, Lucas, Sonic, Yoshi, Pokemon Trainer
Tier 4: Mario, Charizard, Bowser, Ike, Zelda, Samus, Ivysaur, Jigglypuff
Tier 5: Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf, Popo

There really only needs to be 5 separate tiers... not 7 different tiers like this current tier list...
Condensed Version
S: Meta Knight, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy Kong, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Pikachu, Olimar, Ice Climbers, R.O.B., Kirby
B: Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Pit, Donkey Kong
C: Peach, Luigi, Fox, Wolf, Sonic, Sheik
D: Bowser, Zelda, Pokémon Trainer, Ike
E: Lucas, Mario, Ness, Yoshi, Samus
F: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf

Melee had only 5 tier's as well. And it is more broken than brawl. It only had Top, High, Mid, Low, and Bottom... 5 tiers. Therefore, the next brawl tier list should have 5 tiers only, not 7 different tiers.

 

[Espy Rose]

I was right, when people bash or hype a character in here, they alwaysgo about ether the cons or pros. Never both. All I been seeing in here. It's suppose to be about both. Thats how you discuss how good or bad a character is. Not mbashing or going on about 1-2 things and then be like' This character is the **** and A tier/fails and straight up sucks.

When are people gonna learn? It's seriously stupid.

Okay then, how about bullets? Here's the pros:

-Sonic has an enormous amount of options.
-Sonic has an incredibly fast running speed.
-Sonic has a decent air speed.
-Sonic can "bucket brake" to survive attacks that would KO him otherwise.
-Sonic has an amazing recovery.

Just to name a few things. Now for the cons:

-Most, if not all of Sonic's options are canceled by a single movement from characters (Meta Knight's tornado, Peach's down air, Dedede just standing there, Wario in the air).
-Sonic's attacks come out surprisingly slow, save for one or two that are situational at best.
-Sonic has NO killing power.
-Sonic has pathetic range on most of his moves, and anything that DOES have an okay range can EASILY be punished (uair, fsmash, bair, ftilt, utilt).

Better?

Of course, this isn't EVERYTHING. I'm too ****ed lazy to really get into it. Besides, why would we talk about Sonic?

He sucks.

 

[Meru.]

I'd rank Pit in the 2nd tier. I just don't see how Pit can out do DDD and Pikachu. CO18 (DDD), and Esam (Pika) place better at tournaments than any Pit players do in FL.

Also, seeing how Brawl is more "balanced" than melee. There should be less individual tiers. Like this...
Condensed Version (My tier list)
Tier 1: Metaknight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Wario, Falco, King Dedede, Marth, Ice Climbers, Pikachu
Tier 2: Mr. G&W, Zero Suit Samus, Olimar, Pit, R.O.B., Toon Link, Lucario, Kirby
Tier 3: Donkey Kong, Squirtle, Peach, Luigi, Fox, Wolf, Shiek/Zelda, Shiek, Ness, Lucas, Sonic, Yoshi, Pokemon Trainer
Tier 4: Mario, Charizard, Bowser, Ike, Zelda, Samus, Ivysaur, Jigglypuff
Tier 5: Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf, Popo

There really only needs to be 5 separate tiers... not 7 different tiers like this current tier list...
Condensed Version
S: Meta Knight, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy Kong, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Pikachu, Olimar, Ice Climbers, R.O.B., Kirby
B: Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Pit, Donkey Kong
C: Peach, Luigi, Fox, Wolf, Sonic, Sheik
D: Bowser, Zelda, Pokémon Trainer, Ike
E: Lucas, Mario, Ness, Yoshi, Samus
F: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf

Melee had only 5 tier's as well. And it is more broken than brawl. It only had Top, High, Mid, Low, and Bottom... 5 tiers. Therefore, the next brawl tier list should have 5 tiers only, not 7 different tiers.

I don't want to start a Melee vs Brawl argument, especially because I'm not so good at Melee myself, but imo Melee is a bit more balanced than Brawl.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I don't want to start a Melee vs Brawl argument, especially because I'm not so good at Melee myself, but imo Melee is a bit more balanced than Brawl.

No its not. In brawl, its still possible for a low tier character to reach top 10 in a big tournament. In melee, its not possible for a low tier character to get in the top 10.

Low tier Melee:
Low
Link 4.69
Pikachu 4.31
Young Link 4.15
Roy 3.60
Zelda 3.04
Game and Watch 3.00

Bottom
Ness 2.50
Yoshi 2.46
Bowser 2.17
Mewtwo 1.77
Kirby 1.50
Pichu 1.15

Low tier Brawl:
D: Bowser, Zelda, Pokémon Trainer, Ike
E: Lucas, Mario, Ness, Yoshi, Samus
F: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf

We've seen Ness', Bowser, Ike, and Yoshi make top 10 in brawl tournaments. (However, I consider Yoshi and Ness mid tier.)
Melee Link used to make the top 10 in a few melee tournaments, but now that doesn't happen anymore. The other characters below Link, never got even close to making top 10 in a melee tournament. See my point?

 

[da K.I.D.]

[/COLOR]Soniic is bad. bad air game bad approach game. easy to camp. light.

sheik is lighter than sonic,
most of the time sonics approach because we choose to, not because we have to.
how does shiek approach?


He has all these mind gamey tricks which are neat, but they are solid reliable ways to apply presure and rack damage. At least thats how I view it.

the point of the statement tho was that characters that have a lot of options, like shiek and sonic, can do well. sure, most of sonics options are bad, but its not like ALL of shieks options are amazing...

I hate it when people do this. Don't literally attack the argument. counter his points until he understands what he is saying is wrong or just don't argue with him at all.
Whats worse is using someones past argument as some sort of proof his future ones have no validity. Thats not how you win a debate... at least an intelligent one.

He has obviously shown that he is not open to changing his mind or being reasoned with, thus it is pointless to try. the only option in such a case is to stop arguing and spend your time with people that are more reasonable. he has been given tons of proof as to why his main isnt as good as he thinks he is, but he refuses to listen.

 

[Espy Rose]

Really? How? Sheik's just as bad as Sonic.

 

[CaliburChamp]

He has obviously shown that he is not open to changing his mind or being reasoned with, thus it is pointless to try. the only option in such a case is to stop arguing and spend your time with people that are more reasonable. he has been given tons of proof as to why his main isnt as good as he thinks he is, but he refuses to listen.

I noticed that too about ShadowLink. He's soooo closed minded, it's like he has a mental disorder. "Your too slow"... in the head. lol.

 

[Zankoku]

No its not. In brawl, its still possible for a low tier character to reach top 10 in a big tournament. In melee, its not possible for a low tier character to get in the top 10.

Low tier Melee:
Low
Link 4.69
Pikachu 4.31
Young Link 4.15
Roy 3.60
Zelda 3.04
Game and Watch 3.00

Bottom
Ness 2.50
Yoshi 2.46
Bowser 2.17
Mewtwo 1.77
Kirby 1.50
Pichu 1.15

Low tier Brawl:
D: Bowser, Zelda, Pokémon Trainer, Ike
E: Lucas, Mario, Ness, Yoshi, Samus
F: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf

We've seen Ness', Bowser, Ike, and Yoshi make top 10 in brawl tournaments. (However, I consider Yoshi and Ness mid tier.)
Melee Link used to make the top 10 in a few melee tournaments, but now that doesn't happen anymore. The other characters below Link, never got even close to making top 10 in a melee tournament. See my point?

In my opinion, balance among the top characters is far more important than balance among the bottom category. It remains to be seen whether Brawl is better, worse, or just about the same in Melee in that regard.

Anyway, regardless of balance, Brawl has more characters than Melee, so it isn't too big of a stretch to have more categorization among the cast as well. Note that SSB64 has a cast of half that of Melee and only four tiers. Besides which, gap between tiers is not really the same between games.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Really? How? Sheik's just as bad as Sonic.

I noticed that too about ShadowLink. He's soooo closed minded, it's like he has a mental disorder. "Your too slow"... in the head. lol.

I cosign to both of these statements.

I also have SL on my ignore list so I dont have to bother with him.

 

[ice_cream_man]

Diddy Kong for #3 spot!

 

[Meru.]

I agree with Ankoku. IMO more viable characters means more balance. Melee had at least 8 perfectly viable characters: Fox, Marth, Sheik, Falco, Peach, Falcon, Jigglypuff and Ice Climbers. There might still be even more, such as Samus, Ganondorf and Doctor Mario. That's already 11/26.

Also, stop things like X is stupid/close-minded/ has a mental disorder. I'm not trying to act like a mod, but I'm actually getting annoyed myself.

 

[llamapaste]

Concur. ^ He's way to good. I was wrong in saying Snake was way better thy're both great.

 

[<π]

He has obviously shown that he is not open to changing his mind or being reasoned with, thus it is pointless to try. the only option in such a case is to stop arguing and spend your time with people that are more reasonable. he has been given tons of proof as to why his main isnt as good as he thinks he is, but he refuses to listen.

The good
Sheik has tons of safe on sheild option even against D3. Sonic doesn't
Sheik's average attack speed is around 5 frames before a hit box apperars. faster than human reaction for the most part which in and of itself changes how people have to approach her and how she can approach people.
Sheik's air game is amazing. you can literally force punishment by attacking, if they dodge you can attack again for a guaranteed hit.
Sheik has great projectile that racks amazing damage. it can be used to punished wiffed attacks, get up rolls, dodges even landing lag at little to no risk.
Shei'd dacus is another great punishment tool that kills at the right percents and deals 30 plus damage at the wrong ones.
Sheik has vertical great recovery with long invulnerability time as well as a tether that has amazing horizontal reach and invulnerability on pull in.
Great combo game, that can deal huge damage off of tilts and jabs

The Bad
Sheik wins because of your opponents mistakes
Sheik's recovery is very 2 dimentional without a second jump.
Sheik is light and dies early
Few real disjointed attacks
gets comboed/chained by a lot of people... well herself pika and IC.

Really? How? Sheik's just as bad as Sonic.

No way.

When I visited your "is sheik better than sonic?" thread I argued just that... Maybe I'm not the close minded one...

 

[CaliburChamp]

In my opinion, balance among the top characters is far more important than balance among the bottom category. It remains to be seen whether Brawl is better, worse, or just about the same in Melee in that regard.

Anyway, regardless of balance, Brawl has more characters than Melee, so it isn't too big of a stretch to have more categorization among the cast as well. Note that SSB64 has a cast of half that of Melee and only four tiers. Besides which, gap between tiers is not really the same between games.

When I make a tier list, I count in every single character, no matter how bad they are. There's some low-mid characters that still have a chance against top and high tier characters, due to character match ups. Since brawl is a more defensive game, it's easier to escape out of things like combos. In melee it's not as defensive, shields are less over powered, there's more hit stun, the gravity makes your character fall faster, that means there are less options to escape from with those kind of gameplay attributes. Which is why I think Brawl, is a bit more balanced than melee. The ratio to character population versus the top tier characters, makes brawl more balanced.
The reason why I bring up balance is because, there doesn't need to be 7 different tier categorizations, 5 is good enough. With SSB64, I believe they only needed 3 different tiers instead of 4. Seeing Isai play the low tier characters and ****** top Smash 64 players show's that SSB64 didn't really need 4 tiers. With 3 categories of, Low, Mid, and High... that was good enough.

And I know the gap between tiers is not the same between games, the number of tier categorizations can be compared between both games though, if you think about the ratio of the character population versus the top tier characters. Everything is clearly mathematical, even a tier list.

 

[Zankoku]

When I make a tier list, I count in every single character, no matter how bad they are. There's some low-mid characters that still have a chance against top and high tier characters, due to character match ups.

I'm not quite sure how correct this is.

Since brawl is a more defensive game, it's easier to escape out of things like combos. In melee it's not as defensive, shields are less over powered, there's more hit stun, the gravity makes your character fall faster, that means there are less options to escape from with those kind of gameplay attributes. Which is why I think Brawl, is a bit more balanced than melee. The ratio to character population versus the top tier characters, makes brawl more balanced.

This is a silly statement. But yes, I agree that the fewer distinctions you allow between characters, the easier it is to maintain game balance among a large cast.

The reason why I bring up balance is because, there doesn't need to be 7 different tier categorizations, 5 is good enough. With SSB64, I believe they only needed 3 different tiers instead of 4. Seeing Isai play the low tier characters and ****** top Smash 64 players show's that SSB64 didn't really need 4 tiers. With 3 categories of, Low, Mid, and High... that was good enough.

And I know the gap between tiers is not the same between games, the number of tier categorizations can be compared between both games though, if you think about the ratio of the character population versus the top tier characters. Everything is clearly mathematical, even a tier list.

If you really think the difference in viability between characters is that small, go ahead and try to demonstrate it, but I believe there is a very definite difference between a character in one tier and a character in another.

 

[Espy Rose]

When I visited your "is sheik better than sonic?" thread I argued just that... Maybe I'm not the close minded one...

I had no idea that I owned that thread. Funny, considering I took pretty much zero part in that entire discussion.

I do remember, however, believing that Sheik was BETTER than Sonic.
Hell, she still might be. It wouldn't surprise me. If so it'd only further prove that Sonic deserves a low tier spot (or absolute bottom of mid).

But in the grand scheme of things, they both suck.

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik is strictly better than Sonic. Just compare their color options!

 

[<π]

: /
I did say that huh... "your".

Sonic is bad, and I gave the reasons I think that.
If some one said "hey sonic is 19th heaviest" I'd say ****... well that isn't light at all, my fault I'm wrong.
If some one said "Sonic has a safe viable poke in his bair" or something like that I'd accept it. No one has...
Sheik on the other had has ways to handle all of the cast in a fight even if that means using the down B special every once and a while. Sheik is not a bad character, espeacially in comparison to sonic.

 

[Kewkky]

All of these are horrible vs Pika for D3.

No, those options are NOT horrible vs Pika, they're DDD's safest options. Care to give me some examples of what you believe to be good against Pika for D3? Or are you implying that DDD can't win against Pika? If he CAN win, then obviously there's something that DDD can do to beat Pika, wouldn't you agree? And if so, what would you say DDD can do against Pika?

Your statements don't convince me if all you say is "those options are horrible", or "DDD is worse than Pit". With no solid ground for me to walk around, where do you expect me to begin being persuaded?

I'm not talking about watching videos. I'm talking about watching players first hand and talking to same players about matchups.

What's the difference? You're not playing the matches and that's what matters. From just observing, I can deduce a million things, but by playing a match firsthand and knowing all that both characters can do, I can reach the single true conclusion.

Talking to players about the MUs? Well hey, I can talk to the players too here in the boards. Do their experience become any less valid? How about if I tell you that I am a ZSS main (and resident ZSS top mainer AND top-player here in PR), and play a lot against a DDD main (and resident DDD top mainer AND top-player here in PR)... Would you deny MY info and accept yours as a change?


R@vyn, you might be a mod in the Pit boards, but that doesn't automatically make you a Pit know-it-all. I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, ONE HUNDRED PERCENT SURE, that Pit won't belong in A tier. I can expect him to rise if some 'wow' thing happens to the people over him and they drop, or if he suddenly finds something amazing that rockets him to the bottom of A tier, but he definitely isn't better than the rest of A tier right now. Maybe what you're thinking is the MUs between Pit vs DDD (and the other ones) when you consider his tierlist position, but it's not like that at all. Pit, overall, is a worse character than all of the people you mentioned. And even if it's true that a 'good Pit will never get gimped', that's also true for Link if he DIs right all the time... But does that mean that Link's recovery isn't gimpable? I'm pretty sure it still is. Gliding under the stage/over, having 3 jumps and a single WoI sounds good on paper, but in a match those jumps will run out soon enough, that Glide will be lost if you're intercepted by other characters, and all you have left now is a WoI that gets cancelled if you try and parry your opponent as well as cancelled by a single pelted attack from the opponent, ending up killing Pit.


And Dark.Pch, I might not be listing Pit's pros, but it's only because I'm stating the reasons why Pit shouldn't be in A tier... Wouldn't make much sense to mention his pros when I'm talking about him not moving up a tier, now would it?

 

[ShadowLink84]

it's not trolling if you're the one that gets angry and starts flaming first, you're really bad at this.

Flaming?
Hardly, it was a simple fact.

I know you cannot accept it, but that is the way of things.
*pats you on the head*