The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[da K.I.D.]

i imagine it would be hard to camp with jiggly, since she dies at 80... so it wouldnt be hard to find yourself a stock down with her

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

samus has the advantage. legan agrees. its nothing MASSIVE but she does have the upper hand

This is entirely true, she has a slight advantage over Link.

Jigg's camping is hilarious.

 

[Tien2500]

The same could be said about any character that you may want to coutnerpick.

'LOL why counterpick ICs for MK?'

'LOL why counterpick Donkey Kong for Marth?'

'LOL why counterpick Peach for Olimar?'

'LOL why counterpick King Dedede for Snake?'

See what I'm getting at here?

Yes but there is a significantly higher chance of your opponent knowing how to play ICs, DK, or Dedede, and possibly Peach, than facing an opponent who uses Jiggly or Zelda because they're not that popular characters. I mean seriously who plays Jigglypuff and who would learn her specifically for one matchup?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yes but there is a significantly higher chance of your opponent knowing how to play ICs, DK, or Dedede, and possibly Peach, than facing an opponent who uses Jiggly or Zelda because they're not that popular characters. I mean seriously who plays Jigglypuff and who would learn her specifically for one matchup?

I would if there was a D3 player in my area.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yes but there is a significantly higher chance of your opponent knowing how to play ICs, DK, or Dedede, and possibly Peach, than facing an opponent who uses Jiggly or Zelda because they're not that popular characters. I mean seriously who plays Jigglypuff and who would learn her specifically for one matchup?

If my friends didn't play Zelda and I didn't a bit myself she would be a slight surprise.

Surprise still loses it's advantage when the opponent learns the MU.

 

[Gindler]

I think snake > meta.

I honestly think so too, something about living alot longer and killing alot earlier just sucks.

Yes but there is a significantly higher chance of your opponent knowing how to play ICs, DK, or Dedede, and possibly Peach, than facing an opponent who uses Jiggly or Zelda because they're not that popular characters. I mean seriously who plays Jigglypuff and who would learn her specifically for one matchup?

I'd consider it, I usually go wolf against D3 for funzies but that matchups ridiculous. Yoshi's not bad vs. D3 actually since a lot of D3's don't have that CG down (it's one of the harder one's apparently, and not many people know the matchup either). D3 is madly overrated.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I also think that Snake > MK...seems like I'm not alone anymore ^^

Also lol @ people not understanding how camping with Jiggs works. I told you guys that you can play her like Wario to some extent and it works. She's not flop 5. Flop 5 are Ike, Lucas, Falcon, Link and Ganon.
Most Brawl players just plain suck and are impatient. That's why they can't win with Jiggs but if you're prepared for massive camping then you can do better with her than other characters (at least better than the 5 i mentioned)

 

[Nanaki]

Woah, that's a pretty interesting bottom 5. I actually like it, except for Ike. You seriously think he's worse than Samus?

 

[Tien2500]

I would if there was a D3 player in my area.

Well that would be pretty silly. Why not learn a secondary that is actually good against a variety of characters rather than Jigglypuff?

 

[da K.I.D.]

ike isnt even low tier...

when ike stops having more-than-MK style dominance over low tier tournaments, than maybe youlll have a case to the contrary

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Woah, that's a pretty interesting bottom 5. I actually like it, except for Ike. You seriously think he's worse than Samus?

Why wouldn't he be worse?

Just look at Ike's tools:

He can't approach the majority of the characters because his moves are unsafe. He has retreating fair, which is bad for zoning because he can't retreat forever.
He can't camp because his mobility is horrendous. Even Falcon can easily outrun him in the air and the ground and ike can't do much about it.
He is bad at KOing because once you're at higher % you can just camp in your shield. His grab is bad and none of his throws can kill you or put you in a bad position. Plus all his kill moves are extremely unsafe except bair, which reqires you to have your back towards your enemy (aka is predictable).

In a nutshell: Ike is easy to zone and camp for the majority of the characters. Camping minimizes his chances to KO you.

Samus has a very good zoning tool/approach in form of her zair, she has OK projectles (one of them chargable), her aerials are safe in general, she's OK on the ground (ftilt is good and so is dtilt) and she lives really, really long.

 

[smashkng]

Why wouldn't he be worse?

Just look at Ike's tools:

He can't approach the majority of the characters because his moves are unsafe. He has retreating fair, which is bad for zoning because he can't retreat forever.
He can't camp because his mobility is horrendous. Even Falcon can easily outrun him in the air and the ground and ike can't do much about it.
He is bad at KOing because once you're at higher % you can just camp in your shield. His grab is bad and none of his throws can kill you or put you in a bad position. Plus all his kill moves are extremely unsafe except bair, which reqires you to have your back towards your enemy (aka is predictable).

In a nutshell: Ike is easy to zone and camp for the majority of the characters. Camping minimizes his chances to KO you.

Samus has a very good zoning tool/approach in form of her zair, she has OK projectles (one of them chargable), her aerials are safe in general, she's OK on the ground (ftilt is good and so is dtilt) and she lives really, really long.

Ike's dthrow can kill at like 190%, but he still has bad grab game.

 

[Umby]

Ike's dthrow can kill at like 190%, but he still has bad grab game.

If you're implying that this fact makes Ike's grab game good...

 

[Narigo1]

Doesn't Ike's D- throw kills lighter characters at 150% . Ike D-throw is good set up for Aether(depending if your opponent DI or not). Ike's Back throw to Dash attack is a true combo and can chain grab Bowser to around 60%. Ike's forward throw can infinite characters on walls. Ike does have infinite grab releases on Wario and Squirtle

We all know Ike's jab and F-Air is good but what about underrated and less talked about move N-Air which punish air dodges and rolls . N-Air can also set up Ike's jab combo, B-Air, and grabs.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I was wrong, I underestimated Peach's control game, ever so slightly.


I still think however, that having a soft counter vs. MK (I think that's what it is, I'm certainly not going to take it from someone severely biased) is hurtful to a character like Peach.
I don't go into detail for lucario, merely because stating "dair is awesome, everyone should use it" is stupid. There are arguments that can be founded by this that state "someone of overall inferiority does have _____ better than _____ of a better char, therefore, the clearly inferior character is better from a narrowed scope". Lucario has unique strengths, and limiting them to one or two moves makes it sound scrubby. If I were to say "fsmash if properly used is very safe", people would assume I'm still living in Azen's glory days. Peach can't kill, that's a very crucial part of any disadvantageous MU where a character outspaces/outcamps you, I see people lose only because they don't learn how to play the MU right, even when they play it often.

btw, what you mention isn't special. When I was preparing for the Peach MU after losing to Praxis, I looked up several videos, including yours. Any decent char can applicably space like you do, with different tools obviously, but I'm stating what is unique to Peach as her strengths and attributes. Everytime I've seen someone get hit by Peach I never see "good use of tools", as much as I see "That guy really was read like a book". Peach is B-tier material with a game like hers, but your bias transcends boundaries, particularly over other chars you clearly don't know about either.
I'm done trying to explain with a bigoted person like you, I don't want this to escalate any further, but I really just have to realize your's is just another opinion, an annoying, monopolizing one at that, but one person's opinion nonetheless. I really can't believe there are people who want you in SBR with what goes on in bias, I won't pretend I'm a professional, but I've looked at what makes sense to me, and that's that for me. I haven't the slightest qualm with you, but I'd really wish you wouldn't talk down to people like your opinion >>>>>>>>>> theirs. There is such a thing as intelligent/constructive discussion without going to the lengths to deprive it of dignity/respect as you have.

I love how you dare tell my about my own characters matchs ups like you actually review, study them and play them at high levels of play like me. You seriously got some balls doing that one.

And I am being straight real. People always talking all this BS about my character, not learning anything. And actually think they know something. which they don't And I got no problem saying that to anyone. People here *****ing and crying about the same old thing for over a year instead of actually sitting down and using thier brains. My opinion I keep it real. And I don't care who does not like it. I am not gonna hold back what needs to be said cause I am afraid people won't like me. No, screw that, that crap gets no one anywhere.

You learning a match up of Lucario and Peach or watching Peach vids don't make you an expert and think you know it all with her. Cause you straight up don't, just like the rest. Also don't compare me with other Peach players or bring up vids of me. Cause I play totally difference since the summer. Thus I don't put up vids or myself anymore. I don't want people to see how I play not and people be like "Oh I been doing this and that before him" BS. Or Do What I been doing that these others have not being doing and they take the credit. Pretty much reasons wy M2K does not wanna be recorded. Same with NinjaLink's diddy.

I'm being straight honest. I play my own way and totally different. Go to the heart of her messed up and typical meta game and fix the mess. I'm not here crying about damm falcos and metas and *****ing about the same crap over a year about how Peach can do this and that and just can't win. I am actually doing something about it. So people can kick rocks with that.

Don't speak BS about my character like that again as if you are speaking fatcs. Now I see why Vex gets pissed when people talk BS about bowser. it's the truth, people just don't learn/know anything.

Alright, I feel completely juked now.

I take time out of my day to try to help Drk Pch and he tells me to use my ignore feature. =\

That was really not directed to you.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Peach is terrible and you should feel bad.


Meno (the aquatic one) actually proved to me how much of chance Peach has. Long live Peach.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Yes but there is a significantly higher chance of your opponent knowing how to play ICs, DK, or Dedede, and possibly Peach, than facing an opponent who uses Jiggly or Zelda because they're not that popular characters. I mean seriously who plays Jigglypuff and who would learn her specifically for one matchup?

I agree whole heartedly... I used to play Marth, Kirby, and Toon Link. This was right after this tier list came out, so everyone knew Kirby's potential... I used Marth, and for the fight against Snake, who has the advantage on Marth, Kirby and Toon Link had the same chance for winning, so I used Toon Link because he is less expected.

A better example: Remember when people thought MK v Yoshi was 50-50? No one used Yoshi, so when put against him MK's had no knowledge on how to win. Now we know that MK has a pretty good lead on him.

 

[volume]

anyways towards the 3D (dedede) thing 3D has many match ups in his advantages especially when he has the second best grab game in the game he can kill quite easy (yes you have to predict them) but he has a really good WOP and can chain grab most of the cast. he is big though and kinda slow and easy to camp. but if you space and think enough a good dedede could maybe have no problems against campers like sonic and samus ect. i personally main him and try my best to make him go up atleast one place in the tier. i try and fail XD

 

[da K.I.D.]

Why wouldn't he be worse?

Just look at Ike's tools:

He can't approach the majority of the characters because his moves are unsafe. He has retreating fair, which is bad for zoning because he can't retreat forever.

how is retreating fair an approach? his fair is a great approach, because its safe on shield and people eat jabs trying to do anything about it.

He can't camp because his mobility is horrendous. Even Falcon can easily outrun him in the air and the ground and ike can't do much about it.

A character doesnt go all the way down to bottom 5 just cus you can camp them...

He is bad at KOing because once you're at higher % you can just camp in your shield. His grab is bad and none of his throws can kill you or put you in a bad position. Plus all his kill moves are extremely unsafe except bair, which reqires you to have your back towards your enemy (aka is predictable).

1. if you camp your shield, ike can sit there and jab it until it breaks.
2. back throw and f throw do put you in bad positions, because ike can make it redix hard for you get back onto the stage from the ledge. up and down throw also put you above ike which is a bad position because every ike player has mastered the art of punishing your airdodges into the ground with up smash.
3. pretty much everymove he has kills.... you get faired enough, and youre still gonna die... not to mention his jab combo kills if its fresh, and at varying%s and varying chars. jab 1 combos into up tilt which kills at about 110 and turn around back air, which can kill higher or lower depending on stage positioning. oh, and theres also jab to down tilt on the edge.


In a nutshell: Ike is easy to zone and camp for the majority of the characters. Camping minimizes his chances to KO you.

Samus has a very good zoning tool/approach in form of her zair, she has OK projectles (one of them chargable), her aerials are safe in general, she's OK on the ground (ftilt is good and so is dtilt) and she lives really, really long.

samus has cruddy projectiles that are slow and dont kill. i dont understand how you can think to use killing ability as a point to say that samus is better than ike, when ike kills with 80% of his moves, and samus is notoriously known for having some of the worst killing power in the game. also, ike jab beats samus's entire game on the ground.

ike is a solid average mid tier character, he has very few options most of the time, but those few options tend to work very very well.

 

[FatJackieChan]

I also think that Snake > MK...seems like I'm not alone anymore ^^

Also lol @ people not understanding how camping with Jiggs works. I told you guys that you can play her like Wario to some extent and it works. She's not flop 5. Flop 5 are Ike, Lucas, Falcon, Link and Ganon.
Most Brawl players just plain suck and are impatient. That's why they can't win with Jiggs but if you're prepared for massive camping then you can do better with her than other characters (at least better than the 5 i mentioned)

Yo, you really think the Ike, Lucas, and Link are flop 5? I will give points.

Link has his sexy bow, and the boomerang. He is the epic win and will go to new levels. (I am kidding, he is just not flop 5 (in my opinion))
Ike is pretty good for what he is worth.
Lucas has tons of AT's, Ness is surely lower.

My flop 5
Captain Falcon(#1)
MK(#2)
--------
Ness
Yoshi
#1
Pokemon Trainer
Ganon

 

[Luigi player]

A few months ago I also thought that the bottom 5 were Ike, Jiggs, CF, Link and Ganondorf.
But I don't think like that anymore.

Once you play a really good Ike you'll probably change your opinion about him. I thought he's low tier material for sure, but Ikes **** low tier tourneys from what I've seen... So I'm not sure anymore where he should be.

I think Ganon and Falcon are just really bad and the worst characters, after those I'd put Link and Jiggs. They aren't that bad, but have some really big flaws (Link: recovery; Jiggs: too ****ing light). Jiggs dies at really really low %. Then I think I'd put Samus as the next one. Those 5 are, with a little distance to the characters above them, the worst, imo. Samus isn't that bad, but she really suffers because she kills really late (and it's really difficult to hit with an attack that KOs). The characters after those 5 also have some bad things like Ness and Lucas grab release stuff, but other than that they aren't that bad and have some potential imo. I think they're still a bit underrated.

 

[da K.I.D.]

my bottom 5;

Ganon
CF
JPuff
Samus
Lucas

 

[Tien2500]

Yo, you really think the Ike, Lucas, and Link are flop 5? I will give points.

Link has his sexy bow, and the boomerang. He is the epic win and will go to new levels. (I am kidding, he is just not flop 5 (in my opinion))
Ike is pretty good for what he is worth.
Lucas has tons of AT's, Ness is surely lower.

My flop 5
Captain Falcon(#1)
MK(#2)
--------
Ness
Yoshi
#1
Pokemon Trainer
Ganon

Pokemon trainer below Falcon? Dude you should seriously learn more about the game before posting.

 

[bad habiT]

Toon Link should be A tier
If only because of how much he can pwn DK, DDD, Bowser, and most of all SNAKE!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mountain_tiger]

my bottom 5;

Ganon
CF
JPuff
Samus
Lucas

How can you possibly say Lucas is a bottom 5 character? And for that matter, Lucas < Ness??????

IMO, the bottom 5 is:

Jigglypuff
Samus
Link
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

In that order.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Tien, I am just in love with Falcon. Japan has PT as the worst. Falcon can kill pretty hardcore. I am only putting him their because he gets better tourney results than one would expect

da K.I.D., just one question, why Lucas and not Ness?

 

[FatJackieChan]

Tien, I am just in love with Falcon. Japan has PT as the worst. Falcon can kill pretty hardcore. I am only putting him their because he gets better tourney results than one would expect

da K.I.D., just one question, why Lucas and not Ness?

 

[Tien2500]

Tien, I am just in love with Falcon. Japan has PT as the worst. Falcon can kill pretty hardcore. I am only putting him their because he gets better tourney results than one would expect

da K.I.D., just one question, why Lucas and not Ness?

Because Ness has a much better air game and grab game. Lucas' ATs don't really make that big of a difference and his power moves shouldn't be hitting.

I'm not really going to argue about PT and Falcon because its well established that PT is better. Japan had PT as the worst like... a year ago. Pretty sure thats changed by now.

 

[FatJackieChan]

No, their tier doesn't come out as fast (thank you MLG & SBR). I didn't mean that in any particular order...

 

[DanGR]

I'm pretty sure that the SBR and MLG are unrelated.

 

[YesNoMaybeSo]

No, their tier doesn't come out as fast (thank you MLG & SBR). I didn't mean that in any particular order...

SS:
Metaknight, Snake

S:
Falco, Pit

A:
Diddy, King Dedede, Marth, Fox, Mr. Game and Watch
Wario, Captain Olimar, Wolf, R.O.B, Lucario
B:
Zelda + Sheik, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Donkey Kong

C:
Peach, Kirby, Mario, Luigi, Ike

D:
Lucas, Bowser

E:
Link, Pokemon Trainer, Sonic, Jigglpuff

F:
Ness, Yoshi, Samus, Captain Falcon

G:
Ganondorf

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I'm pretty sure that's the Japan tier list. Why are you posting it?

And if it isn't, it's pretty **** bad.

 

[Lawz.]

forget it

10chars

 

[Captain L]

SS tier and G tier look fine, the rest........
I guess there are some crazy pit players and fox players in japan.

 

[Tien2500]

I'm pretty sure that's the Japan tier list. Why are you posting it?

And if it isn't, it's pretty **** bad.

Someone brought it up. And apparently PT is not the worst.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Oh, my bad then.

Why are we even discussing the Japanese tier list? They play completely different over there.

 

[Tien2500]

Oh, my bad then.

Why are we even discussing the Japanese tier list? They play completely different over there.

Because someone tried to use the japanese tier list as a justification for Falcon being better than PT. Lol.

 

[YesNoMaybeSo]

Solid is dumb.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Peach is terrible and you should feel bad.

"The music is bad and you should FEEL bad!"

 

[Tien2500]

"The music is bad and you should FEEL bad!"

<3 Zoidberg