The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[CaliburChamp]

Combo breaker moves pwn Metaknight. Grenade, Bananas, ZSS down + b, Ivysaur bullet seed, Marth's Up+b, fox down+b, wolf down+b.

 

[DMG]

Grenades: Hit Snake and not the grenade.

Banana: Catch it, shield it, dodge it.

ZSS Down B: Be careful

Ivysaur Bullet Seed: Lol

Marth's Upb: Let Marth get out of tornado on purpose, fool him into using Upb, punish.

Wolf Down B: Space your attack well (Fair, Ftilt, etc) and it will hit him after invincibility runs out and he won't hit you back.

Fox Down B: Lol.

 

[Tien2500]

Combo breaker moves pwn Metaknight. Grenade, Bananas, ZSS down + b, Ivysaur bullet seed, Marth's Up+b, fox down+b, wolf down+b.

ZSS' Down B is very situational. It sends you at a predicatble angle so if your reaction time is good you can easily hit her out of it. Bullet seed can be DIed out of and frankly I'm not sure when it would be particularly useful in this match. But that may be because Ivy gets ***** so hard here that I usually switch out ASAP.

Don't play the other characters but I'm pretty sure MK has a solid advantage on all of them so those moves can't pwn him that badly.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Bowser is a better character then Charizard. Chances are Charizard is potentially better in teams then Bowser because Bowser SUCKS in teams.

 

[Tien2500]

Bowser is a better character then Charizard. Chances are Charizard is potentially better in teams then Bowser because Bowser SUCKS in teams.

I don't think either Charizard or Bowser are significantly better than one another. Their strengths and weaknesses seem to balance out.

Bowser
+ Better grab release options. (By quite a bit).
+ Better air game/mobility.
+ Claw
+ Better OOS options.
+ Heavier
- Somewhat easier to juggle. Down B helps near edges.

Charizard
+ Better grab range/Dash grab.
+ Easier to land kill moves. (I'm pretty sure)
+ Rock smash. (Can do up to 61% in one hit when comboed with Usmash.)
+ Better gimp game.
+ Better recovery.
+ Faster run speed.
- Lighter

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I don't think either Charizard or Bowser are significantly better than one another. Their strengths and weaknesses seem to balance out.

Bowser
+ Better grab release options. (By quite a bit).
+ Better air game/mobility.
+ Claw
+ Better OOS options.
+ Heavier
- Somewhat easier to juggle. Down B helps near edges.

Charizard
+ Better grab range/Dash grab.
+ Easier to land kill moves. (I'm pretty sure)
+ Rock smash. (Can do up to 61% in one hit when comboed with Usmash.)
+ Better gimp game.
+ Better recovery.
+ Faster run speed.
- Lighter

Uh, I think its debatable who has a better recovery, I feel Bowser's recovery is slightly better. Also I think Charizard is far easier to juggle because of his Aerial momentum.

 

[Tien2500]

Uh, I think its debatable who has a better recovery, I feel Bowser's recovery is slightly better. Also I think Charizard is far easier to juggle because of his Aerial momentum.

I think Charizard's recovery is better. Bowser doesn't get much vertical distance and I find it easier to spike Bowser out of his. I think Zard's Dair and Bair help more than Bowser's which combines with his lighter weight and fall speed. But I probably shouldn't have listed that since the difference really isn't that great in either direction. But still I don't see what would make Bowser significantly better than Charizard.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I know Phil probably won't say much because he's too classy, and I should probably just stay the hell out of it, but this just pissed me off to no end. He replied to your post respectfully and with clear examples, paving a clear way for you to respond in kind, but you did nothing but spout total bull**** about how amazing you think you are.

How in the world do you get away with posting something like that without getting infracted? It's totally irrelevant, it's obscenely degrading and nothing but flaming/spam. You contributed nothing to discussion, were ridiculously hypocritical, and basically just spent the entire time trying to talk yourself up.

Here's some helpful advice:

1. Not every post is a direct attack at you. (This one may be, a little bit.)
2. Repeatedly saying nobody knows anything about your character when you know absolute **** about theirs makes you look like a giant douchebag.
3. Saying you're being 'straight honest' and 'straight real' does nothing to help your argument.
4. Namedropping makes you sound like a complete child.
5. If you're going to debate something, actually try to make a point and support it with evidence and examples instead of going on and on about how nobody likes you and everyone else doesn't 'use thier brains'.

Seriously dude, what the **** is your problem?

So, me speaking my mind and not being afraid to say anything and speak the truth makes me a *******? I'm sorry. Next time I'll just lie when I speak just so I can please people and you all can like me. I wanna fit in so bad. Geez, give me a break dude............

 

[ShadowLink84]

Combo breaker moves pwn Metaknight. Grenade, Bananas, ZSS down + b, Ivysaur bullet seed, Marth's Up+b, fox down+b, wolf down+b.

Grenade: Ftilt or Dtilt to hit Snake not the nade
Bananas: Catch it or simply make using of multijump abilities
ZSS down B: Uair repeatedly until infzy frames are gone. (yeah its sad he can actually do that and then Nair if you airdoge)

Ivysaur bullet seed: LOL lrn2spce
Marth ^B: Dtilt, Ftilt=no dolphin slash. Marth just doesn't have the same range.

Fox down B: LOL
Wolf down B: LOL

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Wolf down B: LOL

Uh, Wolf's downb is a respectable move, dunno what your laughing about.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I seen my friends wolf Break out of Snakes Nair. Is that official?

 

[.Marik]

MK has plenty of flaws. He's sort of light...ish... And Yoshi CGs him. MK for bottom tier.

MetaKnight has insane DI and Yoshi's ChainGrab can easily be broken out of.

 

[Nic64]

I seen my friends wolf Break out of Snakes Nair. Is that official?

It should work consistently I think, Marth can consistently DS out of it, MK can uair out of it if he DI's outward(I've also had some success SDIing into Snake to get out and punishing from there), so things like that that are 1 or 2 frames for most characters...but I think it's character dependent, I've never grenaded out of Snake's nair and grenades are supposed to appear frame 1...

 

[Dark.Pch]

It should work consistently I think, Marth can consistently DS out of it, MK can uair out of it if he DI's outward(I've also had some success SDIing into Snake to get out and punishing from there), so things like that that are 1 or 2 frames for most characters...but I think it's character dependent, I've never grenaded out of Snake's nair and grenades are supposed to appear frame 1...

I forgot to add unless you got what I was really saying. I am talking about Wolf's relfector. Wolf shined right out of Snake's Nair while getting hit.

 

[Browny]

MetaKnight has insane DI and Yoshi's ChainGrab can easily be broken out of.

umm... metaknights DI is horrible. 5th worst in the game iirc

 

[Luigi player]

umm... metaknights DI is horrible. 5th worst in the game iirc

He probably means momentum canceling with his fast uair.

 

[ShadowLink84]

umm... metaknights DI is horrible. 5th worst in the game iirc

MetaKnight has insane DI and Yoshi's ChainGrab can easily be broken out of.

*reads the two posts...proceeds to ***** slap the hell out of you both*

directional influence is not character dependant. It is simply the changing of trajectory when you are sent flying.

DJB that is aerial speed which MK is indeed 5th worst.
Marik you mean aerial momentum and the CG is not easily broken because of MK's air release. When done properly it goes to the edge since mashing out does not save you.

Uh, Wolf's downb is a respectable move, dunno what your laughing about.

This is in regards to MK who outranges the move and beats out anything else Wolf would do afterwards.

Dtilt, Ftilt, space with Fair. Wolf's down B is meaningless in the case of MK's. So yes it is indeed funny.

 

[Gindler]

Uh, Wolf's downb is a respectable move, dunno what your laughing about.

It's my favorite move for knocking wario off his bike, I've shine spiked a good number of wario's with it. It can shine spike MK's drill too, sure the don't get gimped like wario from it but it's always fun.

I forgot to add unless you got what I was really saying. I am talking about Wolf's relfector. Wolf shined right out of Snake's Nair while getting hit.

Sometimes I can shine out of Nair and sometimes I can't, I think it depends on how snake did it and SDI from the wolf (obviously)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wolf's down B is meaningless in the case of MK's. So yes it is indeed funny.

You're not allowed to talk about Wolf anymore

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're not allowed to talk about Wolf anymore

What? Its true!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Out of curiosity, how many of you think Ganon should be in his own tier below F?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't, he should be at the bottom of the tier list just not in his own tier.

 

[smashkng]

I don't, he should be at the bottom of the tier list just not in his own tier.

Or Ganon and Falcon in the same tier. They just suck against almost everyone except against themselves.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Or Ganon and Falcon in the same tier. They just suck against almost everyone except against themselves.

Ganondorf doesn't just lose to everyone above F Tier, he loses to those in F Tier. He loses to Link by 35:65, and Falcon by 45:55.

 

[smashkng]

Ganondorf doesn't just lose to everyone above F Tier, he loses to those in F Tier. He loses to Link by 35:65, and Falcon by 45:55.

Falcon has disadvantage with all F tier characters as well. And 45/55 is still pretty close to even, being very winnable.

You can't deny Falcon is only a bit better than Ganon. Falcon doesn't win against anyone but Ganon (slightly). They deserve to share their own tier.

Also Link offstage is ***** by Ganon's tipman (can even OHKO Link), but due Link's projectiles it's hard to get in.

 

[SuSa]

I disagree with Ganon vs Link being 35:65.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I disagree with Ganon vs Link being 35:65.

That's good to hear.

Spoiler

/Sarcasm.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I disagree with Ganon vs Link being 35:65.

I agree, it's a 60:40 at worst.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Instead of just disagreeing with the ratio, why not actually explain yourselves?

 

[SuSa]

The fact that it's probably 35:65 for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The fact that it's probably 35:65 for all the wrong reasons.

More specifically.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

More specifically.

I would think it's because of the fact that ganon is overpowered in knockback and really heavy. Link can kill early, but with good DI and avoiding the stronger hits (2nd hit of fsmash; or dsmash), you live to really high percents.

Link has projectiles which force ganon to approach, but all of Links projectiles have considerable lag on them. Just powershield the Zair, boomerang and arrows (easier said then done, but still possible) and you can pretty much punish link before he can recover from cooldown.

Even if projectiles are not that big of a deal, they still gimp Ganons recover. Plus, once ganon gets airborn link can juggle ganon pretty well. The thing I guess ganon might have on link is an easier tech chase of sorts compared to say lucario.

Really, it's still link's favor. 60-40 is what I would go with.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I would think it's because of the fact that ganon is overpowered in knockback and really heavy. Link can kill early, but with good DI and avoiding the stronger hits (2nd hit of fsmash; or dsmash), you live to really high percents.

Its ust a pity Link doesn't let you get in at all.
Cause Ganon is soooo bad, cant even shieldgrab.

Link has projectiles which force ganon to approach, but all of Links projectiles have considerable lag on them.

What?
They dont have enough lag for Ganondorf to truly capitalize let alone the fact he will be using his Zair along with his projectiles.

Just powershield the Zair,

Which does nothing for Ganondorf because he has TERRIBLE movement speed and attack speed.

Let alone that a SH Zair when powershielded results in nothing bad for Link because he can still do whatever he wants after he lands.

boomerang and arrows (easier said then done, but still possible) and you can pretty much punish link before he can recover from cooldown.

Not unless he is up close to begin with which again, Zair plus everything else.
How are you going to punish link for arrow canceling or tossing a bomb or tossing a boomerang unless he is very close to Gdorf? Which is NOT going to happen because of the fact that Link has a much better spacing game.

Even if projectiles are not that big of a deal, they still gimp Ganons recover. Plus, once ganon gets airborn link can juggle ganon pretty well. The thing I guess ganon might have on link is an easier tech chase of sorts compared to say lucario.

How, you're being kept away.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

When I give Ganon a match-up ratio, I know what I'm talking about.

Xeylode, I won't reply to your post because I'll repeat what Shadow has just said, though I'll tell you why I think the Ganon and Link match-up is 35:65.

Link has more than just the edge on Ganon. People keep getting the misconception that Link's projectiles are easy to avoid, when they aren't. A good player knows how to use his character's projectiles, and that same player knows how to abuse it against Ganon. Other characters who have projectiles have some pattern to their spam, Samus for example, Link's projectiles all have different properties, different distance they can go, and all that. I find it much easier to deal with other spams than Link's. Z-Grabbing bombs, is completely pointless, most of the time, they're just going to explode in your hands by the time you catch it, otherwise Link will just avoid the bomb when we throw it.

By the time Ganon approaches Link, he gets more ZAirs, retreating boomerangs, bombs, SH arrows, in his face to PS/avoid. When you're actually close enough to land a quick hit on Link, Ganon's moves are just too slow that they get avoided or powershielded themselves. It's basically this, you, as Ganon, are trying to get up close to Link just to inflict that 9-13% damage, while Link is further away inflicting as much damage to Ganon, as Ganon would up close, just alot more safely.

Ganon could gimp Link off-stage? So can Link. Run off > NAir > DJ > NAir (it could be done backwards as well). Or, run off > Gale guard. Or even, run off > ZAir edge-guard. A arrow from on-stage is enough to gimp Ganon.

Link definitely has a MUCH easier time getting KOs on Ganon than vice-versa. D-smash, Fsmash, UTilt, FTilt, DAir, gimp attempts, and a few more. Link's Fsmash and DAir could punish a shielded Ganon jab.

Boomerang has a lot of different types of set-ups. Like Boomerang up close > jab lock / arrow lock. Since Ganon is the tallest character in the game, and a falls fast, he's probably the easiest character for Link to lock.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Its ust a pity Link doesn't let you get in at all.
Cause Ganon is soooo bad, cant even shieldgrab.

If link decides to try to kill you, he'll have to use one of the killing moves he has. That means he'll get close to you.

What?
They dont have enough lag for Ganondorf to truly capitalize let alone the fact he will be using his Zair along with his projectiles.

Ganon just has to get past all that. If zair is in combination with a projectile, they can be PSed as well. I've seen some vids of ganons doing just that against TL, and link shouldn't be any different.

Which does nothing for Ganondorf because he has TERRIBLE movement speed and attack speed.

Movement is made up for with knockback. Give ganon one chance to hit link and he'll be on the defence for awhile. More so when a ftilt/dtilt at 70% causes link to pretty much go offstage or airborn.

Let alone that a SH Zair when powershielded results in nothing bad for Link because he can still do whatever he wants after he lands.

Then it just comes down to CQC stuff.

Not unless he is up close to begin with which again, Zair plus everything else.
How are you going to punish link for arrow canceling or tossing a bomb or tossing a boomerang unless he is very close to Gdorf? Which is NOT going to happen because of the fact that Link has a much better spacing game.

PSing is the answer to all of that. Plus, a bomb is easy to see that he has it held, and a boomerang has lag you can see it coming as well. Arrow canceling is different, but with some prediction you can overcome that.

How, you're being kept away.

This I was just mentioning. If for whatever reason ganon manages to get a SideB off, then it's tech chase.

Yeah, I know it sounds like PSing is the answer to everything and as if someone will really be able to do that all the time, but it's still possible and it's the only thing he has to counter act what link's projectiles. CQC stuff just relys upon getting that shield, roll or dodge going for you to punish link's lag. But yeah, a properly spaced link is difficult to approach. I'm not saying it's not too far off from 65-35 link, just 60-40.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Ganon really does deserve his own tier. The gap between him and, say, Link is huge. Probably enough to merit a tier of his own. I think CF is better by enough margin that he wouldn't share it with Ganon.

 

[Magik0722]

Doesnt CF do well against ICs?

 

[YesNoMaybeSo]

I also think Ganon deserves his own tier... he's just so bad, it's sad.

I got this from the Ganon boards:

0:100... ew. 3 of them to.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Ganondorf for G tier! He deserves it!

 

[Gindler]

Having a 0:100 matchup is pretty sad.