The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Because someone tried to use the japanese tier list as a justification for Falcon being better than PT. Lol.

Lmao, fail argument.

Solid is dumb.

LMFAO, time to sig this.


BTW, http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=1564

 

[phi1ny3]

I love how you dare tell my about my own characters matchs ups like you actually review, study them and play them at high levels of play like me. You seriously got some balls doing that one.

And I am being straight real. People always talking all this BS about my character, not learning anything. And actually think they know something. which they don't And I got no problem saying that to anyone. People here *****ing and crying about the same old thing for over a year instead of actually sitting down and using thier brains. My opinion I keep it real. And I don't care who does not like it. I am not gonna hold back what needs to be said cause I am afraid people won't like me. No, screw that, that crap gets no one anywhere.

You learning a match up of Lucario and Peach or watching Peach vids don't make you an expert and think you know it all with her. Cause you straight up don't, just like the rest. Also don't compare me with other Peach players or bring up vids of me. Cause I play totally difference since the summer. Thus I don't put up vids or myself anymore. I don't want people to see how I play not and people be like "Oh I been doing this and that before him" BS. Or Do What I been doing that these others have not being doing and they take the credit. Pretty much reasons wy M2K does not wanna be recorded. Same with NinjaLink's diddy.

I'm being straight honest. I play my own way and totally different. Go to the heart of her messed up and typical meta game and fix the mess. I'm not here crying about damm falcos and metas and *****ing about the same crap over a year about how Peach can do this and that and just can't win. I am actually doing something about it. So people can kick rocks with that.

Don't speak BS about my character like that again as if you are speaking fatcs. Now I see why Vex gets pissed when people talk BS about bowser. it's the truth, people just don't learn/know anything.



That was really not directed to you.

*sighs*
Just don't talk about lucario as being "basic" and theorycrafting a storm about the character like you know him too.
Sometimes I wonder why I even bothered in the first place.

 

[Demp]

What's the deal with all this S-Tier ****? I understand the point of an S-Tier when it was just MK because he was so far above the rest. But what's the point now? Why don't we make S-Tier into A, A into B, and so on?

**** it.
SSSSSS-Tier is MK, Snake, and Diddy
SSSSS-Tier is Wario, Falco, Marth, and ICs
SSSS-Tier is D3, GW, Pika, Oli, ROB, and Kirby


and so on...

 

[Mr. Johan]

So which characters haven't been discussed to death already?

S/A tier characters have obviously been discussed a lot, because they matter. Whether by suspecting Diddy and ICs going up, Wario and Kirby going down, Game and Watch going down a lot, MK's advantages over everyone else, Marth and DDD being the walls that prohibit other characters from being viable, Falco being Falco, and so on.

People say Pikachu's top 10, but provide no reason why, from what I've seen. Guess the Tjolting, chaingrabs, and the ability to kill at 70% at the edge of the stage with the impact of Thunder on Pikachu are that obvious.

Zero Suit Samus is suspected to rise, it seems like people expect Lucario to drop, TL to rise a tiny bit, DK's supposed viability without the hell that is D3.

Dark Pch. has discussed Peach enough to fill 10 tier lists. I personally don't know about her placing. To me, she's one of those characters that seems incredible, but then isn't at the same time, lol.

Sheik's got a load of talk, whether by herself, or combined with Zelda, who apparently does not suck CF-style, despite being bottom barrel in most member-made lists.

Sonic got the big jump. Got some talk about his numerous options and low commitment to his moves. Seems like some people think he could go up a tiny bit further, others think he's too high as it is.

Bowser is not slow x1000

"Pokemon Trainer's placing: Actual potential, or because Reflex is just too good?"

Ness >Lucas > Ness > Lucas > Ness > Lucas > Ness > Lucas > Ness > Ninten

Ike's getting some talk on his sluggish moves and bad recovery, yet his good jab/Close combat game and good range keep him from being terrible.

Samus can't kill. But Z-air is amazing. Basic stuff concerning Samus from what I've seen.

Link > Falcon, or Falcon > Link?

And people have discussed Ganon's problems a lot. And there's much to talk about with him.

Jiggs is a mixed bag, some say she should rise, some say she should stay where she's at, there's a bunch of opinions on her.



It seems like the Mario Bros. Fox, Wolf, and Yoshi are the least talked about in this thread. Where do people think they should be in next tier list? I can see Luigi and Fox going down a bit, and Mario and Wolf going up. Yoshi, I have no idea, maybe one or two spots up. That seem accurate for them?

 

[Nanaki]

I love how you dare tell my about my own characters matchs ups like you actually review, study them and play them at high levels of play like me. You seriously got some balls doing that one.

And I am being straight real. People always talking all this BS about my character, not learning anything. And actually think they know something. which they don't And I got no problem saying that to anyone. People here *****ing and crying about the same old thing for over a year instead of actually sitting down and using thier brains. My opinion I keep it real. And I don't care who does not like it. I am not gonna hold back what needs to be said cause I am afraid people won't like me. No, screw that, that crap gets no one anywhere.

You learning a match up of Lucario and Peach or watching Peach vids don't make you an expert and think you know it all with her. Cause you straight up don't, just like the rest. Also don't compare me with other Peach players or bring up vids of me. Cause I play totally difference since the summer. Thus I don't put up vids or myself anymore. I don't want people to see how I play not and people be like "Oh I been doing this and that before him" BS. Or Do What I been doing that these others have not being doing and they take the credit. Pretty much reasons wy M2K does not wanna be recorded. Same with NinjaLink's diddy.

I'm being straight honest. I play my own way and totally different. Go to the heart of her messed up and typical meta game and fix the mess. I'm not here crying about damm falcos and metas and *****ing about the same crap over a year about how Peach can do this and that and just can't win. I am actually doing something about it. So people can kick rocks with that.

Don't speak BS about my character like that again as if you are speaking fatcs. Now I see why Vex gets pissed when people talk BS about bowser. it's the truth, people just don't learn/know anything.



That was really not directed to you.

I know Phil probably won't say much because he's too classy, and I should probably just stay the hell out of it, but this just pissed me off to no end. He replied to your post respectfully and with clear examples, paving a clear way for you to respond in kind, but you did nothing but spout total bull**** about how amazing you think you are.

How in the world do you get away with posting something like that without getting infracted? It's totally irrelevant, it's obscenely degrading and nothing but flaming/spam. You contributed nothing to discussion, were ridiculously hypocritical, and basically just spent the entire time trying to talk yourself up.

Here's some helpful advice:

1. Not every post is a direct attack at you. (This one may be, a little bit.)
2. Repeatedly saying nobody knows anything about your character when you know absolute **** about theirs makes you look like a giant douchebag.
3. Saying you're being 'straight honest' and 'straight real' does nothing to help your argument.
4. Namedropping makes you sound like a complete child.
5. If you're going to debate something, actually try to make a point and support it with evidence and examples instead of going on and on about how nobody likes you and everyone else doesn't 'use thier brains'.

Seriously dude, what the **** is your problem?

---------------------------------------------------------

On topic: I want to hear opinions about Wolf/Fox. Everyone tends to put them right next to each other on almost every list. Does anyone think this is because they're actually about equal viability-wise, or do they just get the urge to put one after the other because they think of them around the same time and they're from the same game?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Well thats a fault on our part in being unable to interpret the data correctly. Plus we are subjective, our biases do play a part.

its not about being unable to interpret the mu data correctly the problem with that method is how often the mu data changes. mu rankings change far more frequently then tier lists

 

[Ripple]

Also Ripple, your "escape" from Wario's Dthrow CG doesn't work. Just thought I would mention that.

actually, it does. just go to the dk boards and ask them about it. specifically Big O

buffer dash, buffer pivot punch

 

[FatJackieChan]

Na, they aren't the ='s, but it isn't because of viability either (in my opinion). The SBR has put them next to each other a bunch. I am wondering if Sonic is going to be the gap between them? I mained Fox in melee (little of brawl), tried Falco (no offense, I hate his guts), and Wolf. I play Fox and Wolf similarly. They both have good side smash, down is crazy good, and down is great for the kill. I only use them similarly though.
Up-air is used to juggle with Wolf, but for Fox it is my secondary killer.
Wolf's forward is more than good, but Fox's is lacking. Following my Marth roots I play Wolf more.
Wolf's blaster has the least AT's, but is the strongest overall.
The reflectors are similar enough.
Wolf can stage scar.
Fox's blaster is complicated. Too hard for me but it is good.
Fox has a far better recovery.
Wolf is generally heavy. It gives him a good life advantage.

EDIT: SonicStorm has the coolest way of typing messages ever. You got me up to date with the whole summer.

I would say at a core level, Wolf would beat Fox every time.
But the tier is a pro level thing, even if we all treat it as though it applies to us.
Fox has intricate techs like side b cancel, and his blaster.
Although his shine has gone down hill. Marth's up-b is sort of like a replacement with a invincible attack frame on frame 5.
Fox can curve his Up-B. That is good.

I can understand why it would be hard to choose. At an average level of play I would suspect that Wolf wins, but later on I bet Fox and him go pretty close.

 

[adumbrodeus]

its not about being unable to interpret the mu data correctly the problem with that method is how often the mu data changes. mu rankings change far more frequently then tier lists

You're totally misunderstanding him, he's saying that match-ups should not be changing baring new discoveries, and the reason it changes so often is because we're bad at interpreting it.

 

[Nestec]

Wow dark.Pch is still wreaking havoc.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

You're totally misunderstanding him, he's saying that match-ups should not be changing baring new discoveries, and the reason it changes so often is because we're bad at interpreting it.

thats fine and if we one day have a mu chart that wont change then someone can make a tier list out of it but since thats not happing any time soon we should base it more on what the characters are doing in practice

 

[laki]

thats fine and if we one day have a mu chart that wont change then someone can make a tier list out of it but since thats not happing any time soon we should base it more on what the characters are doing in practice

I think it was Emblem Lord back in the day that said that there should be two tier lists; 1 based on a characters properties, tools etc. solely and the second one based on tourney results. =/

 

[FatJackieChan]

You're totally misunderstanding him, he's saying that match-ups should not be changing baring new discoveries, and the reason it changes so often is because we're bad at interpreting it.

Honestly, there is no true way to get the right MU for more than a month. We go through a cycle so that it is updated roughly every 35 weeks on tiers that don't restart at 19. We can only cycle through so many times. Brawl is a web of MU's. Every game has an MU, a predicted MU, and a possibility of winning or losing it. The game changes, and this last summer it changed fast. There was just no way of getting all of them. Tiers are match ups, tournament results, and potential right (please confirm)? The biggest being match ups. But honestly, we'll never know.

I just wish that 2 different boards would agree. Marth boards (60-40 on Kirby (easy win)) Kirby boards (60-40 on Marth (easy win))...

PLEASE AGREE ON ONE OR THE OTHER!

 

[FatJackieChan]

N.A.G.A.C.E- the next tier is next month. I asked Umbreon...

laki-Character rankings... That would be it... Match-ups make the other + tourney results make the tier...

EDIT: Double post... Sorry everyone!

 

[zeldspazz]

PLEASE AGREE ON ONE OR THE OTHER!

Thats kinda hard considering on the Character Boards people usually know very little about the opposing character except a select few, so they usually under/overrate drastically at times. Why should you change your opinion on something where you havent been pursuaded to the other side?

 

[Nefarious B]

I would def. put Wolf higher than Fox, though they do seem like they have similar potential. They're both good characters that get gayed way too easily, pretty much.

I would probly put Wolf above peach fox and wigi. I think Sheik would also move up over Fox and Wigi too.

 

[ShadowLink84]

its not about being unable to interpret the mu data correctly the problem with that method is how often the mu data changes. mu rankings change far more frequently then tier lists

Except that the characters are not changing, so if the MU's are changing , that is because what was perceived was wrong.

 

[FaWa]

Ness>Lucas.

Seriously...If that is not what happens in the next list who knows what I'll do...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Honestly, there is no true way to get the right MU for more than a month. We go through a cycle so that it is updated roughly every 35 weeks on tiers that don't restart at 19. We can only cycle through so many times. Brawl is a web of MU's. Every game has an MU, a predicted MU, and a possibility of winning or losing it. The game changes, and this last summer it changed fast. There was just no way of getting all of them. Tiers are match ups, tournament results, and potential right (please confirm)? The biggest being match ups. But honestly, we'll never know.

I just wish that 2 different boards would agree. Marth boards (60-40 on Kirby (easy win)) Kirby boards (60-40 on Marth (easy win))...

PLEASE AGREE ON ONE OR THE OTHER!

thats fine and if we one day have a mu chart that wont change then someone can make a tier list out of it but since thats not happing any time soon we should base it more on what the characters are doing in practice

Ultimately the response to both your objections is the same.


The very fact that the match-ups are changing so much indicates that he's right.


I mean it would be one thing if we were finding substantial ATs for the characters consistently, but that just isn't happening.


That suggests that we're looking at the match-ups wrong and that needs to change.

 

[Gindler]

A better example: Remember when people thought MK v Yoshi was 50-50? No one used Yoshi, so when put against him MK's had no knowledge on how to win. Now we know that MK has a pretty good lead on him.

i remember those days, and i still didn't believe all the hype. probably because i trained mks on the matchup

I would def. put Wolf higher than Fox, though they do seem like they have similar potential. They're both good characters that get gayed way too easily, pretty much.

I would probly put Wolf above peach fox and wigi. I think Sheik would also move up over Fox and Wigi too.

i love wolf to death, but i'd probably put fox higher since he doesn't get gayed as bad as wolf (a spacie get cged by d3?). i'd still put all the spacies above peach though.

 

[DMG]

actually, it does. just go to the dk boards and ask them about it. specifically Big O

buffer dash, buffer pivot punch

I explained why it can't work earlier. I'll go post it on the DK boards.

 

[Deathcarter]

Ness>Lucas.

Seriously...If that is not what happens in the next list who knows what I'll do...

Umm, cry with the Ness mains while the Mario boards laugh at you (assuming that rivalry is still going on)?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ness > Lucas.

I don't know why people are still thinking Lucas > Ness... They are similar, both have very situational movesets, but Lucas's is overall more situational, with lesser KOing power when accounting for usability and setups.

 

[Tien2500]

actually, it does. just go to the dk boards and ask them about it. specifically Big O

buffer dash, buffer pivot punch

Ummmmm... didn't you say earlier that this had to be done in one frame? If so I'm not sure how you could possibly do this O_O... Is there any video of this working?

 

[BSP]

Umm, cry with the Ness mains while the Mario boards laugh at you (assuming that rivalry is still going on)?

I'm guessing you're talking about his recovery right? With good di, ness will almost never have to use PKT2 to recover, his second jump is just that big. And with a fair to stop nearly every edgegaurd attempt, he's got a pretty decent chance at recovering.

And like most people have said, ness and lucas have very different styles. Ness has the air, while lucas rules the ground.

 

[Deleted member]

They are not similar at all....
Why do people still think this!

 

[Mr. Johan]

Fox has the speed, d-air, and U-Smash, yet Wolf has the fantastic F and D smashes and tilts, and equally great b-air. And Wolf has the less reliable Up-B recovery, but I think his Side-B recovery is superior to Fox's.

Just by those traits, I'd say Wolf is better than Fox, but not by much. Fox has some kill setups, but Wolf is generally living longer unless he gets sent offstage at a low angle and/or is being hassled offstage, and his options between his Blaster, b-air approaching, and the range of his F-smash make confronting him tougher. And then there's his Invincibility frames from his VB to get out of bad situations.

I can see Sonic being the one in between them, assuming nothing gamebreaking happens for any of the three. Maybe Sheik could be between them too.


As for Ness and Lucas, Ness has the safer options with his f-air, a better air game overall, and more reliable Smashes. Lucas's KO moves are just too sluggish or noticeable to be killing at a consistent rate.

Ness > Lucas, imo.

Generic/obvious/redundant/most likely incorrect statements, probably. Please correct me if I am wrong. I want to learn more about what each character has to go with.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Who's better? Bowser or Charizard? Charizard can gimp much better than Bowser can. Charizard can get easier to hit with KO's. Bowser has better Out of shield options, and more aerial momentum along with klaw hopping. Charizard has a better recovery, less likely to get gimped. Charizard is faster on the ground. Bowser is faster in the air compared to Charizard.

I would say Charizard is a tiny bit better than Bowser, just because Charizard can gimp much more effectively. He has D-air, B-air, F-air and can go farther out to edge guard and still make it back to the stage, unlike Bowser. This is why Charizard beats Bowser by a little bit, but Bowser should be one step under Charizard. Charizard also has insane grab range, so does Bowser side b. However Bowser is better than Charizard when it comes to doubles (team matches). Anyways, thats my analysis.
Blah
Blah
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Charizard
Bowser

Low Tier
Yoshi
Zelda
Ike
Mario
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ivysaur

 

[Deathcarter]

I'm guessing you're talking about his recovery right? With good di, ness will almost never have to use PKT2 to recover, his second jump is just that big. And with a fair to stop nearly every edgegaurd attempt, he's got a pretty decent chance at recovering.

And like most people have said, ness and lucas have very different styles. Ness has the air, while lucas rules the ground.

I didn't mean to imply that I personally beleived that Lucas > Ness (I really don't), I was just playfully mocking the Ness boards on the possibility of it happening in the next list, given that a lot of the low tiers positions are still funky in addition to the SBR having limited low tier experience as a whole.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Except that the characters are not changing, so if the MU's are changing , that is because what was perceived was wrong.

And thats why we can't make a correct tier list using the mu's.

Also nice to know new tier list next month

 

[OizenX]

METAKNIGHT SUCKS!

*gets shot*

 

[Spelt]

not like nobody wishes that to be true.

 

[DMG]

Naw man I want MK to be gayer.

 

[Esca]

I wish MK was gayer.

 

[Yonder]

not like nobody wishes that to be true.

Im glad he's the best in the game :D. Better than someone Like Marth again . Metaknight's one of my fav Nintendo characters

 

[ShadowLink84]

And thats why we can't make a correct tier list using the mu's.

Also nice to know new tier list next month

You can as I just explained, its that people do not agree and make errors.
The MU based tierlist is fine.
SF3 community has done it as have many others in the past.
As did melee and 64.
Its that we tend to weigh our matchups, and other communities do so as well.

To say we should not use MU's for the tierlist is silly.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You can as I just explained, its that people do not agree and make errors.
The MU based tierlist is fine.
SF3 community has done it as have many others in the past.
As did melee and 64.
Its that we tend to weigh our matchups, and other communities do so as well.

To say we should not use MU's for the tierlist is silly.

I still think MUs are the best way to go about doing it. MOst people can at the very least agree upon even, or slight or hard advantage to one character or another.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Im glad he's the best in the game :D. Better than someone Like Marth again . Metaknight's one of my fav Nintendo characters

Marth had flaws. MK does not.
=\

 

[Tien2500]

Marth had flaws. MK does not.
=\

MK has plenty of flaws. He's sort of light...ish... And Yoshi CGs him. MK for bottom tier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Olimar can kill him at 87% .