The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Deathcarter]

@Sky`

Seems like you are overrating Falco a bit. Actually I should say overrating Lazers. Falco is a very stage-dependent character and therefore can lose matches if counterpicked well. He also has to deal with stalling at very high skill levels, and his recovery is very predictable making early gimps not out of the question.

He is not better than Diddy, hell lazers are not even better than bananas haha.

As for the rest of the list, I agree that Marth is above DDD but I also think that Wario is a bit better than Falco and Marth, but its very close. If i had to a a rating out of 100 for the 3 with MK as 100 and Ganon as 0, then i would put it as so

1 MK 100
2 Snake 94
3 Diddy 89
4 Wario 85
5 Falco 83
6 Marth 83
7 ICs 79
8 DDD 77

then others haha.

4nace, the differences in strength between MK and DDD are not THAT great, at least to the point that MK would be that much more likely than King DDD in a tournament where each of the top 8 characters had equal representation in the form of top players. Diddy, Falco, and maybe Wario are pretty much interchangable; same goes for Marth, DDD, and maybe Ice Climbers at a stretch since there Top Tier advantages are getting more narrow and they still get countered by Snake.

The top characters, simply put, are very balanced. There should be at most a 17 point difference between MK and DDD ((7th place) and thats only because MK is a cut above the rest; the gap between him and Snake is pretty much larger than that between Snake and DDD imo).

 

[Tien2500]

Rating characters on a scale of 100 is really silly unless you have some sort of criteria. Otherwise its just random numbers. MK is 6 points better than Snake? Wtf does that mean exactly?

 

[ShadowLink84]

well its true that some moves are obviously broken, some moves may seem good or bad but until put into practice you don't know. ex zelda's f-smash seems good at first but can be di'ed out of making bad.

but that does not need high level players to perform
The traits of the moves themselves show they are bad.

Zelda's Fsmash is a multihit move and in this game, hit delay is greater. So of course its even easier to DI than it was in melee.

So it doesnt seem fine a tlal when you analyze it. Same with Sonic's Fsmash. It looks good at first, but its REALLY bad.

2nd i know how they make the tier list but i think looking at what a character could potentially due while no one can put it into practice is not the right way of doing it. I think it should be more (but not completely) based on what the characters are doing when put into practice.

Well it depends, the view you have is more metagame based which does agree with what we use.

I do prefer the Mu based though, its more accurate long term

 

[4nace]

4nace, the differences in strength between MK and DDD are not THAT great, at least to the point that MK would be that much more likely than King DDD in a tournament where each of the top 8 characters had equal representation in the form of top players. Diddy, Falco, and maybe Wario are pretty much interchangable; same goes for Marth, DDD, and maybe Ice Climbers at a stretch since there Top Tier advantages are getting more narrow and they still get countered by Snake.

The top characters, simply put, are very balanced. There should be at most a 17 point difference between MK and DDD ((7th place) and thats only because MK is a cut above the rest; the gap between him and Snake is pretty much larger than that between Snake and DDD imo).

Yea, I'm aware that it wouldn't be that great. But that scale was putting Ganon at absolute 0 so all 36 characters would have to run the scale of 0-100 with mid tiers being around 50-60. Now thats a terrible way to do a point system I'm aware.

I guess the point that I was trying to make is that I see Marth and Falco as absolutely even on the tier list, even though their play styles and match-ups are completely different =P.

Also yea, I understand what you mean that MK would probably be 100 then the rest of the high tiers would float around 85-93 or so. I agree =)

 

[Tien2500]

b

So it doesnt seem fine a tlal when you analyze it. Same with Sonic's Fsmash. It looks good at first, but its REALLY bad.

Sonic's Fsmash is amazing. I dunno how or why but it is. Something about the slow wind up animation makes me think "I should walk right into that and not shield."

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

but that does not need high level players to perform
The traits of the moves themselves show they are bad.

Zelda's Fsmash is a multihit move and in this game, hit delay is greater. So of course its even easier to DI than it was in melee.

So it doesnt seem fine a tlal when you analyze it. Same with Sonic's Fsmash. It looks good at first, but its REALLY bad.


Well it depends, the view you have is more metagame based which does agree with what we use.

I do prefer the Mu based though, its more accurate long term

i understand why you might like the tier list MU based but the problem with that is that MU change more frequently then one would like for a tier list in my opinion

 

[ShadowLink84]

i understand why you might like the tier list MU based but the problem with that is that MU change more frequently then one would like for a tier list in my opinion

Well thats a fault on our part in being unable to interpret the data correctly. Plus we are subjective, our biases do play a part.

 

[Xyro77]

It was at some tournament. Legan won in the tournament, but Xyro won in the MM that is google searchable. But, Legan beat Xyro two matches in a row at a tournament. I think that match-up is pretty even, they both have their strengths.

samus has the advantage. legan agrees. its nothing MASSIVE but she does have the upper hand

 

[fullynick]

matchup based tier lists wouldn't work well for smash, because it is not an overly balanced game.

Ie. characters like dedede who have ridiculous matchups versus low tiers but still lose to top tiers would end up being 2nd or 3rd on a matchup based list

Edit: I guess matchup based tier lists could work if more weight was given to high tier matchups

 

[Frown]

matchup based tier lists wouldn't work well for smash, because it is not an overly balanced game.

Ie. characters like dedede who have ridiculous matchups versus low tiers but still lose to top tiers would end up being 2nd or 3rd on a matchup based list

Edit: I guess matchup based tier lists could work if more weight was given to high tier matchups

They do have matchups in mind. And Dedede doesn't really lose to top tiers.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

They do have matchups in mind. And Dedede doesn't really lose to top tiers.

Uh, he loses to plenty of top and high tiers by a decent amount.

 

[Frown]

What I meant is that Dedede loses to characters spread out across the tier list. He's even or has the disadvantage against characters like Falco and ICs as well as Zelda and Jigglypuff.

 

[Justblaze647]

D3's overrated.

Take away his CG, and you have a love child between IC's, Kirby and Bowser.

i.e. he's not that great, he just gets a lot of rep

 

[<π]

I think snake > meta.

 

[WindMajor]

D3's overrated.

Take away his CG, and you have a love child between IC's, Kirby and Bowser.

i.e. he's not that great, he just gets a lot of rep

But with the chain grab, he's great. The grab range is amazing, and the damage you receive from his CG is really good. He has multiple jumps, and strong hits. Only downside is that he's big and slow, which of course, can be worked with, if you're good with him.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic's Fsmash is amazing. I dunno how or why but it is. Something about the slow wind up animation makes me think "I should walk right into that and not shield."

Its the wind up, it has a , eat this punch, effect.

 

[DanGR]

What I meant is that Dedede loses to characters spread out across the tier list. He's even or has the disadvantage against characters like Falco and ICs as well as Zelda and Jigglypuff.

What D3s are losing to Zeldas and Jigglypuffs?

 

[ShadowLink84]

What D3s are losing to Zeldas and Jigglypuffs?

then again who really plays those characters?
its hard to say when those two characters are rare in comparison to DDD.

 

[Nanaki]

then again who really plays those characters?
its hard to say when those two characters are rare in comparison to DDD.

Which is why those matchups matter so little.

The point has come full circle at last!

 

[CRASHiC]

Fogo occassionally loses to one of the best Jigglypuffs. Aw yeah.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Which is why those matchups matter so little.

The point has come full circle at last!

They can still be counter-picked by them. Thus winning match-ups is less important then not losing them.

 

[Tien2500]

They can still be counter-picked by them. Thus winning match-ups is less important then not losing them.

Yeah but who's going to play Jiggly or Zelda well enough to use them as a CP?

 

[ShadowLink84]

A competitive player who wants to win and smack the **** out of the penguin of course.

 

[Nanaki]

A competitive player who wants to win and smack the **** out of the penguin of course.

Or you could just...CP Falco and have an actually USEFUL secondary.

 

[DMG]

Jigglypuff vs Dedede on Jungle Japes.

I'll give you a hint: Dedede loses easily.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Yeah but who's going to play Jiggly or Zelda well enough to use them as a CP?

The same could be said about any character that you may want to coutnerpick.

'LOL why counterpick ICs for MK?'

'LOL why counterpick Donkey Kong for Marth?'

'LOL why counterpick Peach for Olimar?'

'LOL why counterpick King Dedede for Snake?'

See what I'm getting at here?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah but who's going to play Jiggly or Zelda well enough to use them as a CP?

I will, Marth sux against DDD, and I've got a respectable Zelda, so heck yea I'm gonna CP DDD with Zelda.


Basically, people have really random counterpicks, specific characters can compliment other characters quite well to deal with single annoying match-ups. So a number of people have unexpected counterpicks, like Zelda or even jiggs. That's especially true if you've got crazy **** match-ups against certain characters cause there's an incentive to develop a secondary.

 

[Ripple]

jigglypuff's need to use dacus more often, its a great option for her

 

[DMG]

I don't wanna sound like I'm bragging or anything, but I got a pretty good Jigglypuff that isn't afraid to run for 8 minutes.

I'll whip it out in tourney, you all will be proud.

Also Ripple, your "escape" from Wario's Dthrow CG doesn't work. Just thought I would mention that.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Or you could just...CP Falco and have an actually USEFUL secondary.

True Falco is better overall against DDD, but, jigglypuff is better in some cases as is Zelda

Edit: DMG beat me to it.

 

[Nanaki]

I don't wanna sound like I'm bragging or anything, but I got a pretty good Jigglypuff that isn't afraid to run for 8 minutes.

I'll whip it out in tourney, you all will be proud.

Also Ripple, your "escape" from Wario's Dthrow CG doesn't work. Just thought I would mention that.

You lie, you do want to sound like you're bragging.

<-------- is not surprised that you are good with/enjoy Jiggs, but is still immensely interested in watching you time people out with Jiggs. That would be even more infuriating than being timed out by Wario.

 

[DMG]

Honestly Jigglypuff is really good at it. Like I figured out some ******** ways to waste time with her.

 

[Nanaki]

They probably don't pay off quite as well as a 1/2charge fart, but I'm sure they're still fun to watch.

 

[DMG]

The only thing I hate about camping with her sometimes is that instead of Side B, Regular B is inputted, killing me lol. Aside from that, she's ******** at it. Especially on Japes, that stage screams for her to **** people on.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Fart and run

 

[DMG]

Fart and run

Usually, I skip the farting part. Hell, if I need to, I'll use the Fart to run away better/longer.

 

[Nanaki]

I usually actually get upB instead of sideB on accident, not neutral B. I think that's even worse.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Exactly, its both offense and defense.

*chases you down anyway*

 

[DMG]

Exactly, its both offense and defense.

*chases you down anyway*

*Forces you to pick Snake*

*Brinstar glows on the stage selection screen, beckoning the inevitable *****

*8 minutes later I am victorious*

 

[ShadowLink84]

*Forces you to pick Snake*

*Brinstar glows on the stage selection screen, beckoning the inevitable *****

*8 minutes later I am victorious*

umm, i use marth and Sonic.

Soooo, works for me ^_^
I hate Snake due to his stupid Utilt.