The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[zeldspazz]

I dunno. I just went with what the boards said. I haven't played Zelda since way back when people were still getting hit by Dins. Lol. Regardless of whether MK is 65:35 or 75:25 I still say PT is better than Zelda.

Squirtle is better than Zelda
Charizard is about even
Ivysaur is worse.

Close imo.

 

[Dark.Pch]

There is absolutely no way Zelda is above PT. Zelda is absolutely hopeless against several of the top characters in the game. She has a 75:25 matchup against MK. That alone should keep her below him. And she has several other hopeless matchups as well plus is just generally not a very good character. Trainer should be right around where Fox and Wolf are.

ZSS is also underrated here. She's better than ROB, Kirby, and G&W at least. She has great matchups towards the top and no really bad matchups except Falco. Better than those guys. She might be better than Toon Link as well but I don't know that much about him.

I was waiting for someone to bring that up.

Lol lucario is more than just "powerhouse", in fact I think that's the opposite, he only gets exponentially powerful when the opponent lose the first stock. Lucario has very solid attributes, stupidly good disjoints that are great anti-air (imo why marth vs. Lucario is near even), a projectile that while I think hasn't been fully exploited, has capabilities to both pressure and kill, and a flowing game that's very transitory and complimentary to his whole moveset. He doesn't have any extremes in moveset, but they're solid enough to contend, and the unlike Peach, the "killing problem" associated with lucario only occurs if the lucario is a scrub in the MU.

Ok this right here is really not saying much to why he is this upeer tier character. And you are not really getting into what he can really do or why he should be high on the list.

When he applies every tool properly, he can get the kill against nearly every character behind a stock with only getting miffed for 10-20%, nearly like every character. What he trades for startup speed he gains in safety, range, and a quasi-complexion of a moveset that satisfies both killable requisites and damage racking requisites. Offstage isn't a problem either, his attributes (he's 5th floatiest, and has a ridiculous second jump + really good momentum cancel), and tools (dair stall, BAS + lingering, low cooldown aerials) if all are used properly, allow lucario to get back on in most scenarios. Imo most lucarios aren't at the point I'd like them to be, especially offstage, but I'm confident in my findings.

Off stage Lucario is in trouble. With good/smart edguarding. he is not that hard to keep out. And a player can force you to recover in a whay they want too. And Just what are these tools that he has that are so good to make him that high, you still have not told me anything. All I heard so far is range. and killing.........ok that'd it. This is why he belongs so high up? Is that right?

Peach needs float, it's pretty stupidly obvious, especially with her bad ground speed and horrible AD, glidetoss and float help. So what if both a projectile is outcamped (making glidetossing meh), and floating gets ripped? Peach's "amazing approach" gets that much worst. It becomes far more "punishing", and that's what doesn't work in those MUs.
Lucario is more than just mere Power, if he were, I think he'd be much lower, because of his awful way to obtain it.

Ok now you just talking BS. First off, tpical play style is Peach relying on floating thinking that is the answer to all her problems. Peach Really does not need to be floating so much and it is not her prime thing. I have been playing her and hardly float these days. Ask people who see me in tournies, I am hardly floating these stays and still hacking it. Goes to show you when people use thier heads, they realize and understand stuff. And I limit my floating usage and placing fine in tournaments. So lets not talk this junk.

Most of the time if I am floating, it is to recover. And even so, I have my F-B and toad to get some extra recover distance. And Peach has many ways to approach. It does not have to be the typical floating or glide tossing. Brush up on my character before you spit stuff like this at me.

Again, not telling me anything expect BS on my character. You can't even defend yours on why he belongs so high up there. I'm not seeing it. Killing and range. And low cool down time on air attacks. Thats all I got.

Peach relies on strengths that can get shutdown in highest levels by tools that counter it. They happen to be what Brawl favors, and Peach doesn't therefore stand out with those attributes in those. Lucario and Pit, on the other hand, have enough solidity to switch up if "Plan A" doesn't work in most scenarios. While I think Pit is slightly overrated by some, I can agree Pit and lucario are superior to Peach and Luigi.

Like what? Cause that is straight BS.

Also, Please don't you dare say Lucario and Pit have more switch ups than Peach, really with a simple character as lucario. Don't dare come to me with this one dude. Cause you still failed to tell me what makes this dude so up there on the list. And If that was the case, match up for Peach would not be like this:

45-55 Snake (Disadvantage)
50-50 DDD (Even)
60-40 Wario (Advantage)
50-50/45-55 Falco (Disadvantage/even)
60-40 Diddy (Advantage)
50-50 Pikachu (Even)
50-50 Kirby (Even)
60-40 Olimar (Advantage)
60-40 IC (Advantage)

On the "Power trip" that is a notion that is somehow being linked to this, I do not judge characters by power alone, as Luigi holds arguably the most out of the 4 mentioned. Pit is regarded as "telegraphed", which does reduce his killpower, and yet I still think he should be higher than Peach and Luigi. I look at the macrocosm that is character tools, it's imo how it's supposed to be done, and I actually regard these more than MUs in certain instances, although MUs are often indicative of what tools are better.

You don't know much about Peach, and I can assume the same for luigi. You speak BS about my character and fail to defend yours as to why he belongs so high up and how he has alot to him that makes him so versitale. You pretty much proff my point. Not even a person who plays/Mains lucario can even explain this to me and defend them.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Squirtle is better than Zelda
Charizard is about even
Ivysaur is worse.

Close imo.

This.

Charizard is maybe a spot or two higher then Zelda. PT is one or two spots lower then Zelda.

 

[Luigi player]

Diddy vs Peach is never 60:40 for Peach.

 

[zeldspazz]

Diddy vs Peach is never 60:40 for Peach.

I can see it actually. I mean I dont know either character that well, but Im guessing its due to Peach being able to easily float over nanners. Same reason why Jiggs goes even, cus they never touch the ground.

 

[Sky`]

Diddy vs Peach is never 60:40 for Peach.

Peach gives Didderz the D!ck. Sorry. :3

 

[Luigi player]

It doesn't matter if they touch the ground or not, MK is also nearly always in the air.

Maybe you don't know about it, but Diddy also has peanuts. And he can jump and throw bananas too if he wants to. If the Diddy only stays on the ground and throw bananas forward against an enemy that appraoches higher than the banana will hit than he probably doesn't have enough matchup experience.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Q
F
T
This alone is why Pit and Lucario should be above Luigi/Peach. Just because certain characters have extreme tools in their moveset doesn't mean that they are great, which is the main selling point of chars like these. Luigi is pretty inviable no thanks to D3 infinite (and as infinites are still allowed in the SBR ruleset, you still have to take these into consideration for an SBR tier list), and as for Peach, her killing problem (yes I know I'm going to get called out for this one by Dark Pch), and her limitations in MUs where a control projectile/game that isn't grounded is present (these **** floating), are why falco, lucario, G&W, snake, and TL are disputed as disadvantageous (I can't say they are regarded as, because some ratios have too much deviation that crosses from one Peach main to the next (although I agree with the MU consensuses that Praxis puts out))
Dark.Pch, the notion that lucario has a very basic and linear game is very flawed, Lucario has tons of options, and is part of the reason why he can kill well, despite having not many setups for those kills. The other reason obviously is safety. G&W and Lucario are faaaar from eachother in "staled" metagame. And it doesn't always mean that the character should warrant a drop if their tools vastly trump those below them.

Why is this still believed?


Luigi mains lrn2mashout.



You can mash out until well past killing percents, mashing out efficently is a crucial tech skill for Luigi, Mario, and Samus mains because of this.


Luigi's viability issues more stems from characters he can't get inside.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Diddy vs Peach is never 60:40 for Peach.

Yes it is.

It doesn't matter if they touch the ground or not, MK is also nearly always in the air.

Maybe you don't know about it, but Diddy also has peanuts. And he can jump and throw bananas too if he wants to. If the Diddy only stays on the ground and throw bananas forward against an enemy that appraoches higher than the banana will hit than he probably doesn't have enough matchup experience.

This is still not stopping Peach from ending diddy, wether in the air or ground.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I can see it actually. I mean I dont know either character that well, but Im guessing its due to Peach being able to easily float over nanners. Same reason why Jiggs goes even, cus they never touch the ground.

Maybe you should learn about the characters first...

 

[Hyesz]

It doesn't matter if they touch the ground or not, MK is also nearly always in the air.

Maybe you don't know about it, but Diddy also has peanuts. And he can jump and throw bananas too if he wants to. If the Diddy only stays on the ground and throw bananas forward against an enemy that appraoches higher than the banana will hit than he probably doesn't have enough matchup experience.

I didn't know that;

A) Diddy was unbeatable no matter what.
B) Characters who spend the majority of their time in the air have bad air games.

Thanks for the info though bro, it'll come in handy.

/sarcasm

Peach vs Diddy is a matchup I can see in her favour.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Stop underestimating Peach, Peach has probably the most potential to get better out of the whole roster right now, she's total **** if you control her, the only problem is that mastering her is hard, really hard.

Keep an eye out for Sheik too ;3

 

[phi1ny3]

Rebuttal coming up, because I shake my head/facepalm in disbelief at how stupid this is getting/how hypocritical this is.
@adum: D3 tools insure a lot of stupid stuff vs. Luigi even without infinite, then again, that can be said for a lot of people (including my own char). The MU still stands as really bad, 70:30 at min?

 

[FaWa]

I have a lot of issues with the lower tiers. Here's my opinion on what the C, D, E, and F tier should look like.

C-

Peach
Luigi
Sonic
Wolf
Fox
Pokémon Trainer

D-

Sheik
Ike
Zelda
Ness

E-

Mario
Lucas
Bowser
Jigglypuff
Yoshi

F-

Samus
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Link


Thoughts? I really think Ganon> Link, Jiggs>Samus, Ness>Mario/Lucas, and Wolf>Fox are the biggest changes.

 

[bigman40]

You missed Yoshi. GG.

 

[Cold Fusion]

You missed Yoshi. GG.

He did not miss Yoshi. It is just that he put Yoshi in B tier.

 

[FaWa]

Actually, I did miss Yoshi. Editing him in now.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I have a lot of issues with the lower tiers. Here's my opinion on what the C, D, E, and F tier should look like.

C-

Peach
Luigi
Sonic
Wolf
Fox
Pokémon Trainer

D-

Sheik
Ike
Zelda
Ness

E-

Mario
Lucas
Bowser
Jigglypuff
Yoshi

F-

Samus
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Link


Thoughts? I really think Ganon> Link, Jiggs>Samus, Ness>Mario/Lucas, and Wolf>Fox are the biggest changes.

Legan and Moon-doggie disapprove.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@adum: D3 tools insure a lot of stupid stuff vs. Luigi even without infinite, then again, that can be said for a lot of people (including my own char). The MU still stands as really bad, 70:30 at min?

I don't disagree with that, it's just the infinite jumped on me.


He has a lot of difficulty getting inside DDD which is a lot of the reason he REALLY has issues with him (I realize my wording was a bit awkward, I think I'll correct that, but DDD is definitely a character that's difficult to get inside).

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

You pretty much proff my point. Not even a person who plays/Mains lucario can even explain this to me and defend them.

Not everyone wastes their time endlessly making useless masturbatory writeups over their character and why no one understands them bawwwwww.

 

[zeldspazz]

I have a lot of issues with the lower tiers. Here's my opinion on what the C, D, E, and F tier should look like.

C-

Peach
Luigi
Sonic
Wolf
Fox
Pokémon Trainer

D-

Sheik
Ike
Zelda
Ness

E-

Mario
Lucas
Bowser
Jigglypuff
Yoshi

F-

Samus
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Link


Thoughts? I really think Ganon> Link, Jiggs>Samus, Ness>Mario/Lucas, and Wolf>Fox are the biggest changes.

It's alright
C tier looks pretty good, Except Sheik should be top of it, not D tier.
Bowser shield be right above Zelda and Ike.
Im not sure on PT right now, I think number wise the same, but him in D tier instead of C tier, if you know what I mean.

Edit: Totally missed Link. He's defidently not worse than Ganon

 

[Dark.Pch]

Not everyone wastes their time endlessly making useless masturbatory writeups over their character and why no one understands them bawwwwww.

If I am gonna sit here and say my character is this and that, I am sure as hell gonna right as much as I can to state so. Not gonna sit here and say 2 or e weak statements that means nothing and shows one does not know what the hell they are talking about. And funny, This quote came from a lucario player too. Im sorry if I can actually explain my self while others can't explain **** and speak BS. It's not my fault people don't think somethines. It really isn't.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, infinite's just icing on the cake, especially since all the while Luigi will be getting in, D3 is tacking on damage.

 

[Ripple]

Is no one good with Dedede? Lol.

Like Ook is good, but what the hell did his bracket look like for him to win the tourney?

not everyone is going to pick DDD against a DK on a CP.

 

[zeldspazz]

not everyone is going to pick DDD against a DK on a CP.

You will if you're smart >_>

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not everyone wastes their time endlessly making useless masturbatory writeups over their character and why no one understands them bawwwwww.

Wow, can you please have my babies? Like that's the most awesome and accurate post I've ever seen. Good ****.

Peach DOES suck at killing btw. Learn2DI

 

[Tien2500]

Squirtle is better than Zelda
Charizard is about even
Ivysaur is worse.

Close imo.

Squirtle is better than Zelda by quite alot.

Charizard is also better than Zelda. Zelda again has tough matches against quite a few characters. MK, G&W, Olimar, Snake, and a few others. Charizard really doesn't have those tough matchups. Charizard's worst matchup is against Snake which is probably 35:65. Charizard I feel is a solid mid tier character. He doesn't do all that great against most of the top tiers but he has the tools to do well against most mid tier and below characters. He doesn't really have any truly glaring weaknesses (except his back get up roll and only Snake has really been able to take advantage of). Anyway he's better than Zelda.

Ivy is about on Zelda's level I think. They're both kind of similar in that they're mainly defensive characters with subpar projectiles to force approaches but Ivy's is a bit better. Ivy also has a somewhat better approach in that his Bair is useful, and nair to an extent. Ivy has a better air game.

Zelda definitely has a better punishing game and is better at getting characters out when they get inside. Dsmash is faster and better than anything Ivy has. Fsmash and Usmash are also great, although Usmash is easily punishable if baited. Zelda also has the lightning kicks which are great for if opponents make a big mistake.

Both have bad recoveries although Ivy's is definitely worse. In my opinion Zelda vs Ivy is pretty close.

Now when you combine all three you get a clearly better character. Ivy shouldn't see too much usage (unless someone really likes Ivy for whatever reason). Ivy is likely to get the end of a stock where getting gimped isn't a huge deal covering her major weakness. She also will see play in certain matchups that aren't good for Squirtle. Marth/DK/Ike for instance (Ike is debatable here). Charizard gets to stock tank at high percentages which is very useful especially since he can do big chunks of damage in a few hits. And Squirtle is Squirtle. He does well in most matchups and should be in for PT for the bulk of the matchup. Combined the three don't really have any hard counters and only a few of soft counters (Snake and Marth and possibly Wario).

Of course Zelda can switch to Sheik but thats not the argument here.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

If I am gonna sit here and say my character is this and that, I am sure as hell gonna right as much as I can to state so. Not gonna sit here and say 2 or e weak statements that means nothing and shows one does not know what the hell they are talking about. And funny, This quote came from a lucario player too. Im sorry if I can actually explain my self while others can't explain **** and speak BS. It's not my fault people don't think somethines. It really isn't.

Unlike you, I'm smart enough to know that trying to convince other people (especially ones as bullheaded as you) of my character's merits is not only an uphill battle, but a complete waste of time. Think whatever you like of Lucario, it doesn't affect me in the slightest.

Wow, can you please have my babies? Like that's the most awesome and accurate post I've ever seen. Good ****.

^^ Glad to be of service.

 

[zeldspazz]

@Charizards MUs.

Are the ones in the MU Chart up to date?
40-60 against just about every top/high tier.

I fail to see how this is true.
How does Charizard do that well against Olimar, Falco and MK? Can someone explain, Im not saying its wrong but Im just confused.

Last time I checked, Ivysaur's ground game is really lacking. Zelda's is far better.
And idk about Zelda's aerial game being worse than Ivysaurs. Ivy has bair, but Zelda has the one of the strongest uairs, nair that racks damage and cant be DIed out of, a reliable meteor that even when unsweetspotted can screw some recoveries like Bowser, Peach, Dk, etc. Bair OoS is one of the best OoS options in the game imo. She also has a faster horizontal movement in the air iirc. And obviously, the recovery is pretty big.

Zelda is much better than Ivy imo.

 

[ook]

not everyone is going to pick DDD against a DK on a CP.

You will if you're smart >_>

The infinite was banned at that tourney... though one person I played (Wafles) did counterpick DDD for some reason, but I 2-stocked him.


But yeah honestly I did have an easy bracket... just some MKs, Falcos, and Snakes. All of which are no problem for DK!

 

[Dark.Pch]

Unlike you, I'm smart enough to know that trying to convince other people (especially ones as bullheaded as you) of my character's merits is not only an uphill battle, but a complete waste of time. Think whatever you like of Lucario, it doesn't affect me in the slightest.

So cause I am not a quitter to prove a point and actually fight for my character makes me dumb? I'm sorry if I can meet your standards of the cool kids club. if I wanted to be in thatclub I post BS I know nothing about.

And if that is the case, don't worry about what I do and bounce and mind your own.

 

[Tien2500]

@Charizards MUs.

Are the ones in the MU Chart up to date?
40-60 against just about every top/high tier.

I fail to see how this is true.
How does Charizard do that well against Olimar, Falco and MK? Can someone explain, Im not saying its wrong but Im just confused.

Last time I checked, Ivysaur's ground game is really lacking. Zelda's is far better.
And idk about Zelda's aerial game being worse than Ivysaurs. Ivy has bair, but Zelda has the one of the strongest uairs, nair that racks damage and cant be DIed out of, a reliable meteor that even when unsweetspotted can screw some recoveries like Bowser, Peach, Dk, etc. Bair OoS is one of the best OoS options in the game imo. She also has a faster horizontal movement in the air iirc. And obviously, the recovery is pretty big.

Zelda is much better than Ivy imo.

Zelda's Up air is not much better than Ivy's and their Nair's are similar as well. Ivy's may be a little bit better. Ivy can spike with Dair and Nair and Bair can take characters out of recovery range. Zelda's ground game is definitely better but Ivy's isn't that bad.

We haven't discussed the matchups in a while but I think those are fairly accurate.

MK is simply not that big of a deal. He does what he does against every character to Charizard, nothing more nothing less. Charizard doesn't have anything to worry about from MK that the rest of the cast doesn't plus he has weight and power on his side. 40:60 seems about right.

Zard can take advantage of Olimar's gimpability pretty well. Zard's throws get him off the stage at a nice angle as does Dtilt or Fair if he hits. Olimar has some trouble KOing Charizard if he doesn't get a purple Pikmin.

Falco isn't particularly terrible. Lasers are a pain but don't shut down Charizard. Flamethrower is good against Falco due to fall speed especially as an edgeguard. Charizard also has his normal strengths. Power, weight, grab range, etc. We haven't discussed this in a while but I don't see why it would be worse than 40:60.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

We honestly need a thread that lets people have personal arguments. Keeps the discussions clean.

 

[zeldspazz]

Zelda's Up air is not much better than Ivy's and their Nair's are similar as well. Ivy's may be a little bit better. Ivy can spike with Dair and Nair and Bair can take characters out of recovery range. Zelda's ground game is definitely better but Ivy's isn't that bad.

Zelda's uair has less startup and is stronger than ivy's iirc. Zelda's nair and Ivy's are about equal I must admit, both have similar properties. Ivy's Dair spike is defidently harder to pull off than Zelda's in my experience, and doesnt even send the opponent down every time like Zelda's. May I also mention that if you get faired or baired offstage as Zelda, then thats basically death for you? What do you mean by nair and bair take characters out of recovery range?

We haven't discussed the matchups in a while but I think those are fairly accurate.

MK is simply not that big of a deal. He does what he does against every character to Charizard, nothing more nothing less. Charizard doesn't have anything to worry about from MK that the rest of the cast doesn't plus he has weight and power on his side. 40:60 seems about right.

Can Zard deal with uair juggleing? Do his attacks outrange ftilt and dtilt? Is he gimped fairly easily?

Zard can take advantage of Olimar's gimpability pretty well. Zard's throws get him off the stage at a nice angle as does Dtilt or Fair if he hits. Olimar has some trouble KOing Charizard if he doesn't get a purple Pikmin.

Can Zard deal with the amounts of spam? And how does Zard grab Olimar before he grabs you?

Falco isn't particularly terrible. Lasers are a pain but don't shut down Charizard. Flamethrower is good against Falco due to fall speed especially as an edgeguard. Charizard also has his normal strengths. Power, weight, grab range, etc. We haven't discussed this in a while but I don't see why it would be worse than 40:60.

How can Zard deal with lazer spam? Most Falco will recover high, so how gaemchangeing is flamethrower really? Does Zard get CGed?

I responded in question cus Im not clear on facts, moreso I want explainations.

 

[Nanaki]

I honestly think the most useful information I've gotten from this thread is which users to put on my ignore list.

There are some ridiculously dumb things said in here.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Think this is the first time I actually seen a Zelda player actually fight for her rights. Sweet.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Think this is the first time I actually seen a Zelda player actually fight for her rights. Sweet.

Agreed.

*grabs popcorn*

 

[zeldspazz]

Think this is the first time I actually seen a Zelda player actually fight for her rights. Sweet.

Agreed.

*grabs popcorn*

Crap. Pressures on o_____o

 

[<π]

Zelda is horrible. one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Crap. Pressures on o_____o

I would help, but I honestly don't feel that I know enough about Zelda to be of much help.

Zelda is better, I just can't decide by how much.