The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[FatJackieChan]

MK:
IC's: sure it's still being fine tuned, I am just saying that it is possible. Wait, can MK get out of it or no? IC's still have de-synch blizzard and up-air... too good.
Wario: Dude, Getting a lead with Wario isn't hard. And 6 minutes, you would end it before then. I have used Wario, the fight goes on, but he racks up hits. And he hits hard.
Diddy: Figurative Counter. He is even to an advantage in my opinion.
Falco: Still only and even match-up, ban RC and Brinstar ins't so bad. A proper Falco would learn one of them.
Marth: No, they aren't important for top 5 spots, but they are when they are below that and that close. MK could go up to 4 and I still would have no complaints. Over Falco and Marth, sure.

Snake: Dude, Wario has weight and power too, and he doesn't touch the stage unless he wants to... Snake is good, I play him. A proper Snake can control the stage but most can only cover half at most. Diddy can banana him to pieces, I need to check up on my Snake a little better, but he should be lower than Falco and Marth, Marth has a true counter.

And if done right, Snake's camping is completely viable. Marth has the advantage.

No, Wario takes him evenly, Diddy leads him, he beat IC's, loses Falco, loses D3, loses MK, and loses Marth. Don't forget that 7th is good.

 

[zeldspazz]

Ok, this "I play him" and "in my experience" is a bad way to back up arguements.

If youre not winning with MK, youre doing it wrong

 

[Sky`]

Climbers for Falco. I'm also not sure if he can deal with MK planking. From my understanding Dedede has problems with the Climbers, Falco, Olimar, and Pika which are all up there on the tier list. He has the advantage of completely shutting down a large portion of the cast but most of the characters he does aren't common tourney characters. And Dedede doesn't really excel against many top characters.

As for his metagame... It could very well improve in the future and when that happens tier lists should reflect that. But the tier list should be based on the top of the American metagame so as of now I don't see him moving above any of the characters above him.

Climbers is not unwinnable. SK and Larry no longer have problems With Ic's. It's not 'unwinnable'. More on, Climbers VS DDD is in DDD's Favor if you know the matchup. Look up 'nothing. vs 9B' If they recorded it, it should give you good insight on what I'm talking about. Falco isn't that much in falco's favor either.

The tier list is based off the American Metagame. Sure.

But when people learn from other regions, we're going to see some tier shifts.

 

[FatJackieChan]

IC's take whoever they need off of one mistake, one bad dodge, one punishable move is all they need.
A proper Falco would ban RC, be forced to Brinstar, and then wipe at Smashville.
No, but Diddy wins, and is expanding his Meta game faster than Meta Knight. A figurative counter isn't the right word, he is a future counter.

 

[zeldspazz]

Theres no point in arguing, I can already tell that nobody will be able to break you.
Be misinformed if you'd like.

 

[Tien2500]

MK:
IC's: sure it's still being fine tuned, I am just saying that it is possible. Wait, can MK get out of it or no? IC's still have de-synch blizzard and up-air... too good.

Well until the top players are performing the chain grab right 100% of the time then the tier list shouldn't reflect that. Grab range is still horrible. And other characters have tools equal to or greater than the stuff you mentioned.

Wario: Dude, Getting a lead with Wario isn't hard. And 6 minutes, you would end it before then. I have used Wario, the fight goes on, but he racks up hits. And he hits hard.

You would end it before then? If you're ending it before that then its not stalling/camping really and MK has plenty of oppurtunities to come back.

Diddy: Figurative Counter. He is even to an advantage in my opinion.

Even is not an advantaged. Plus one match will be on MK's counterstage. Brinstar/RC are not too good for Diddy.

Falco: Still only and even match-up, ban RC and Brinstar ins't so bad. A proper Falco would learn one of them.

Learn as much as you want. Its still going to favor MK heavily.

Marth: No, they aren't important for top 5 spots, but they are when they are below that and that close. MK could go up to 4 and I still would have no complaints. Over Falco and Marth, sure.

MK is the best character in the game. Period.

Snake: Dude, Wario has weight and power too, and he doesn't touch the stage unless he wants to... Snake is good, I play him. A proper Snake can control the stage but most can only cover half at most. Diddy can banana him to pieces, I need to check up on my Snake a little better, but he should be lower than Falco and Marth, Marth has a true counter.

No Wario does not have Snake's power. Wario has Fsmash. Thats is only really powerful move. Bair sort of too. And Wario doesn't have Snake's range or camp game. Diddy can not banana him to pieces. Its an even matchup I believe on a neutral.

And if done right, Snake's camping is completely viable. Marth has the advantage.

No its not. Snake has the advantage. 55:45ish. Even is VERY debatableIt is in no way Marth's advantage.

[quote[No, Wario takes him evenly, Diddy leads him, he beat IC's, loses Falco, loses D3, loses MK, and loses Marth. Don't forget that 7th is good.[/QUOTE]

Dedede is even or 55:45 Dedede. Diddy is even. Wario is even. Falco is even.

 

[FatJackieChan]

fair enough, we'll see. I asked Umbreon and we got about a month till the next tier list. Dude let's face it. MK just isn't that good. Snake at 7 I thought was nice, Pikachu is really moving up. DK ain't bad either.

EDIT: Working on Tien's post

True, that is why Wario might take top. Lain got a 0-125% death 2 weeks after it became popular. Pros do it all the time. 1 grab only takes one mistake by the opponent. It isn't that hard. a punishable move, a bad dodge, anything.

Sure, Wario and MK is pretty close. But Wario hits faster than MK, and he hits WAY harder.

RC and Brinstar aren't that bad... anyway, after that it would go back to Diddy, duh

No, it really wouldn't, Brinstar is a fine stage for Falco if played right.

MK is the best in the game? He is at best even with more than half the top tier now! Wario is strictly better. Face it, MK just isn't what he used to be.

Wario has up-air too, and you know how good Snake is at beating juggling. Dair brings people up, Fart can kill at 60%. Snake can be WoPed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeXmXZmtv6w
Against ultimate Razor, considered to be one of the best Snakes.

Snake loses to D3, we knew that all year. Diddy is even. Face it, Wario wins.

 

[4nace]

I CP Wario with Captain Falcon. Get at me!

 

[Coney]

More on, Climbers VS DDD is in DDD's Favor if you know the matchup.

Falco isn't that much in falco's favor either.

can't find 9b against nothing. is he your reference for *** DDD? hook a brother up with some links, if you please.

EDIT - oh wow, the first three letters of japanese is still considered a derogatory term? what is this, 1942?

 

[Tien2500]

Climbers is not unwinnable. SK and Larry no longer have problems With Ic's. It's not 'unwinnable'. More on, Climbers VS DDD is in DDD's Favor if you know the matchup. Look up 'nothing. vs 9B' If they recorded it, it should give you good insight on what I'm talking about. Falco isn't that much in falco's favor either.

I can't find any nothing vs 9B battles of that matchup. So you'll have to explain it to me. I've heard the theories on how Dedede can win that matchup but I'm not sure how well they will work in practice or on truly top ice climbers. Have Lain/Meep/Hylian lost to any top Dededes? Or Falcos? The Dedede boards are great at coming up with strategies but alot of them are really highly specific and I feel that good players will adapt to them.

The tier list is based off the American Metagame. Sure.

But when people learn from other regions, we're going to see some tier shifts.

No question that this game still has alot of potential to change in the future. But I don't think Dedede should rise just yet.

Edit: Also two of the important advantages Dedede previously had (Snake/Marth) are now thought to be 55:45 or neutral.

 

[Sky`]

I'll just have to explain it. It's on a Japanese Youtube site, that american's can't access. =/ Well, without a password. or something. Like you have to register and -

Anyway.

DDD, believe it or not, can effectively camp IC's harder than any other character. Seeing as seperating popo and nana is easier than ever, by staying by the ledge, Standing pivotgrabbing approaches, forward tilting to desynch, etc etc. Not to mention that if you buffer pummels, it's almost impossible to cg him until about 50%.

And the second that nana dies.. it's GG for popo. Back air gimping them is incredibly easy.

It's seriously a bull **** matchup. But we don't see that here, because the Japanese play so simple and much more campy.

 

[FatJackieChan]

True, that is why Wario might take top. Lain got a 0-125% death 2 weeks after it became popular. Pros do it all the time. 1 grab only takes one mistake by the opponent. It isn't that hard. a punishable move, a bad dodge, anything.

Sure, Wario and MK is pretty close. But Wario hits faster than MK, and he hits WAY harder.

RC and Brinstar aren't that bad... anyway, after that it would go back to Diddy, duh

No, it really wouldn't, Brinstar is a fine stage for Falco if played right.

MK is the best in the game? He is at best even with more than half the top tier now! Wario is strictly better. Face it, MK just isn't what he used to be.

Wario has up-air too, and you know how good Snake is at beating juggling. Dair brings people up, Fart can kill at 60%. Snake can be WoPed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeXmXZmtv6w
Against ultimate Razor, considered to be one of the best Snakes.

Snake loses to D3, we knew that all year. Diddy is even. Face it, Wario wins.

 

[Sky`]

Dude, Jackie.

Wario is not that good. There is only one notable wario at the moment, and that is fiction.

And Wario Mains Fiction. not the other way around it.

How can Wario be top while losing to Peach and Falco so hard?
He isn't top.
Your tier list, I hate to say it, is one of the most misinformed things I've ever seen. The even thought of MK being 6th is idiotic.

And Ic's being first? One grab = 1 stock? Ever heard of a thing called, Human error? Weight classes?
It's not that easy, it's not 1 grab = one stock.
Jesus. Am I the only one here?

 

[Tien2500]

I'll just have to explain it. It's on a Japanese Youtube site, that american's can't access. =/ Well, without a password. or something. Like you have to register and -

Anyway.

DDD, believe it or not, can effectively camp IC's harder than any other character. Seeing as seperating popo and nana is easier than ever, by staying by the ledge, Standing pivotgrabbing approaches, forward tilting to desynch, etc etc. Not to mention that if you buffer pummels, it's almost impossible to cg him until about 50%.

And the second that nana dies.. it's GG for popo. Back air gimping them is incredibly easy.

It's seriously a bull **** matchup. But we don't see that here, because the Japanese play so simple and much more campy.

Yeah Popo is easy to gimp. Ftilt I'm not sure about it. If the Ice Climbers are good at double power shielding it seems like that might help.

But again this is all based on the japanese metagame which I don't think our tier list should be based on.

True, that is why Wario might take top. Lain got a 0-125% death 2 weeks after it became popular. Pros do it all the time. 1 grab only takes one mistake by the opponent. It isn't that hard. a punishable move, a bad dodge, anything.

Yeah it is hard if the opponent plays right. They're kind of easy to seperate too and grab range sucks. And from the matches I've watched Lain's success rate with 0-death is far less than 100%.

Sure, Wario and MK is pretty close. But Wario hits faster than MK, and he hits WAY harder.

And Wario has no range. It balances things out.

RC and Brinstar aren't that bad... anyway, after that it would go back to Diddy, duh

Yeah they are. And after that where is Diddy going? FD is banned and the next best thing is Smashville. Smashville is not going to be nearly as bad for Diddy's opponent as Brinstar/RC is for him.

No, it really wouldn't, Brinstar is a fine stage for Falco if played right.

I don't believe it is.

MK is the best in the game? He is at best even with more than half the top tier now! Wario is strictly better. Face it, MK just isn't what he used to be.

He goes even with the top tier because they're top tier. Lol. Who beats him in top tier? Wario has a few hard matchups. MK has none. Not even Wario mains would argue for Wario being better than Snake.

Wario has up-air too, and you know how good Snake is at beating juggling. Dair brings people up, Fart can kill at 60%. Snake can be WoPed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeXmXZmtv6w
Against ultimate Razor, considered to be one of the best Snakes.

Wario definitely has the advantage on Brinstar. Who won that set by the way? Razor. Lol.

Snake loses to D3, we knew that all year. Diddy is even. Face it, Wario wins.

In the past few months top mains of both characters have seemingly agreed on either 55:45 or even for Dedede or even. Wario is even too.

 

[Coney]

Snake loses to D3, we knew that all year.

nope, it's even now. snakes got smarter, more creative with nades.

interesting stuff sky, didn't think of camping that hard. have you seen any usage of fullhop dair against climbers? seemed like a good desynch/separator, but risky due to their uair.

any ideas on the falco matchup? just camp like crazy there too? seems like he wins at close and long range...

 

[DMG]

Dude Sky, no offense but Nothing is not that impressive. I'm watching his videos and honestly I think that a rusty Hylian is better than him.

Now as for Dedede vs IC's, I think people DO need to look deeper into that to see what Dedede can do. He has a lot of good tools against IC's that aren't exploited very much yet (not even in Japan).

Also, Fatjackiechan, don't link videos of me vs Razer on Brinstar and only say "Wario outcamps Snake cause of this". The matchup is much more complex than a single video can demonstrate. Now, it is true that on certain stages, Snake gets camped VERY HARD by Wario and the stage specific matchup sways to 70:30 Wario or higher, but the overall matchup is much more complex and deep.

Also lol only one notable Wario being Fiction?

As for Wario vs Falco, Wario doesn't outright lose to Falco. His CG on Falco takes its toll, not to mention how hard it is for Falco to try and kill him.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Wario is that good, he is light, strong, fast, he is the win... MK isn't all that great. And I said, he could be 4th and that would be fine with me. IC's could be second, a fixed that in a later post. Human error doesn't affect the tier save tournament results. And it isn't that hard. I was able to get 60% the first day I tried it. IC's could go 1-2 maybe even 3. Fine, I'll adjust accordingly:

Wario
Diddy or IC's
IC's or Diddy
MK
Falco or Marth
Marth or Falco
Snake
Pikachu
D3
G&W

EDIT: DMG, I agree entirely. It's just that I wanted a video to show that Wario can camp. And that one is freaking perfect for it.

 

[DMG]

Here's a better top 5:

MK
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario

Wario's not as godly as you make him. I still think he is top 5 material, but barely. He's certainly not #1 lol.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

1. new develpment with the chaingbrab against DK

0-22% CG is escapable by way of my secret method
23-53% CG is not escapable
54-59% CG only lasts for 3 grabs
60-84% CG is not escapable
85-110% CG only lasts for 2-3 grabs

2. falco is 45-55
diddy is even or slight disadvantage, however the diddy boards think thats its DK's advantage. o_O
olimar is even and not disadvantage anymore because we learned the match up

i thought getting out of the chain grab was a secret, b/c i mentioned it in a earlier post but then i think i deleted it thinking it was a secret that i should not even hint to and then u go giving it away, makes my effort pointless . o well but thanks for coming in and backing up what i was saying people just underestimate dk he can be a monster in the right hands.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Wario is that good, he is light

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/

Huh?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Brawl is a camping game. People are now just realizing this crap?

 

[FatJackieChan]

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/

Huh?

did I say that. I meant he was small/he is heavy

 

[Sky`]

Dude Sky, no offense but Nothing is not that impressive. I'm watching his videos and honestly I think that a rusty Hylian is better than him.

nothing. Knows more about IC's than Hylian. Hell. Nothing knows more about the game than the majority of the people in the country. X]

Hylian is not better, and I'm willing to put cash on that. He's just been playing Ic's longer than he has, and he has much more knowledge about the matchups and what to do and not to do. He's just a smarter/more experienced/ better Player.

Try to answer this question.

Why are Ic's not as high in Japan, in comparison to America? I'm curious to see what you say. X]

Now as for Dedede vs IC's, I think people DO need to look deeper into that to see what Dedede can do. He has a lot of good tools against IC's that aren't exploited very much yet (not even in Japan).

I think that there is some subtle animosity at a different region being better than us when it comes to particular characters. Again, Japanese have DDD Down to a D.

Also lol only one notable Wario being Fiction?

As for Wario vs Falco, Wario doesn't outright lose to Falco. His CG on Falco takes its toll, not to mention how hard it is for Falco to try and kill him.

Falco can Ftilt/Jab all of his Horizontal approaches.
Utilt all of his Vertical approaches.
And Gimp him with Soft Back air. That match up is totally not in Wario's favor. =/
It's pretty bad for him actually. X]

 

[4nace]

I see Falco around even with Marth, so either move Marth up to top 5 or move Wario above Falco. Either way, those two characters seem really similar in their ratio of good/bad match-ups especially vs the higher tiers.

 

[FatJackieChan]

4nace, totally agree with you... Wario was already above Falco though.

 

[Tien2500]

Wario is that good, he is light, strong, fast, he is the win... MK isn't all that great. And I said, he could be 4th and that would be fine with me. IC's could be second, a fixed that in a later post. Human error doesn't affect the tier save tournament results. And it isn't that hard. I was able to get 60% the first day I tried it. IC's could go 1-2 maybe even 3. Fine, I'll adjust accordingly

Tier lists are based on the highest level of play. If the chain grab isn't 0-death 100% of the time at top level play then the list should reflect that. Your list of characters is entierly wrong.

 

[FatJackieChan]

So one would think.... Why don't you make one and we'll go from there.

 

[Tien2500]

Here's a better top 5:

MK
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario

Wario's not as godly as you make him. I still think he is top 5 material, but barely. He's certainly not #1 lol.

This one is fine. I might change Falco with Wario but thats a judgement call. ICs would probably be sixth or so followed by D3/Marth.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

You mistake me for a NICE gentleman, there are mean ones.

Actually I read the entire thing, and frankly it is basically you spitting out that based on your own experience with these players Dk should go up.
That is not how it works.




OMG 3 GOOD PLAYERS YOU REMEMBER!
That matters how?

first off 3 good players matter b/c its more then most people can think of for higher tier characters such as wario

2nd: you call yourself a gentlemen with those manors, i think not you insult the whole lifestyle of a gentlemen with your crass why of speaking and if you were around here i would give you quite a thrashing.

 

[FatJackieChan]

I just don't see what makes MK so good. And I most certainly don't see why Snake is so good. Diddy, Wario, fine. Falco and Marth seem about even to me. So where we really differ is just the placement of the IC's, MK, and Snake. I also think that for the IC's neither of us really know what we are talking about. But Snake gets ***** by Olimar, Pikachu, ZSS, and loses to MK. He has plenty of counters. MK has no counters, but breaks even on Diddy, Falco, and Wario. I don't see how that puts him above them. Wario beats Snake (Wario says they win, Snake says they tie) or at leasts breaks even, beats Diddy by air game, Falco breaks even. He has leads, and no one has a clear advantage on him (save maybe Peach). Ice Climbers kill D3 and Falco, and will be growing as time goes on. This happened last game too. Maybe they won't be that high for tier 4, but probably tier 5.

Diddy
Wario
MK
Falco
Marth/Snake

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Brawl is a camping game. People are now just realizing this crap?

I disagree. Brawl is a reading/prediction game.

MK has no counters, but breaks even on Diddy, Falco, and Wario. I don't see how that puts him above them.

Wow.... MK is place above them purely because no one character in brawl can ultimately counter him at all. Why does diddy who does have counters get placed above a guy who no counters.

 

[Tien2500]

I just don't see what makes MK so good. And I most certainly don't see why Snake is so good. Diddy, Wario, fine. Falco and Marth seem about even to me. So where we really differ is just the placement of the IC's, MK, and Snake. I also think that for the IC's neither of us really know what we are talking about. But Snake gets ***** by Olimar, Pikachu, ZSS, and loses to MK.

ZSS ***** Snake? Are you kidding me? I main ZSS and at best its a 55:45 advantage. Its more likely even. Olimar is at best 60:40. Pika is about even. Maybe 55:45. A counter is 65:35 or worse. Snake has none of those.

MK has no counters, but breaks even on Diddy, Falco, and Wario. I don't see how that puts him above them.

Because those characters have stages that cause problems and characters who they lose to. MK does not. You don't have to beat a character to be above them on the list. You just have to do better than they do against most of the cast.

Wario beats Snake (Wario says they win, Snake says they tie) or at leasts breaks even, beats Diddy by air game, Falco breaks even. He has leads, and no one has a clear advantage on him (save maybe Peach).

Marth has a clear advantage on him. Peach. At one point Luigi did but I dunno if thats still the case. And apparently Falco.

Ice Climbers kill D3 and Falco, and will be growing as time goes on. This happened last game too. Maybe they won't be that high for tier 4, but probably tier 5.

Either they grow and get better or people learn to fight them better and they go down. Obviously 0-death grab is a big deal but they have some very exploitable weaknesses as well so they can get better or worse.

 

[phi1ny3]

ah i did write that wrong what i ment to write was
IT SEEMS TO ME GOOD SIR THAT YOU MUST NEVER OF FOUGHT AGAINST A GREAT DK TO HAVE THAT OPION OF HIM AND I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE FOR THESE REASONS I WILL POST BELOW

Also just b/c you disagree with something someone wrote if that part of the so called rant has nothing to do with the points they are making then ignore that part and focus on the parts that are making the point. stopping were you presumably stopped reading would make you ignorant and uninformed to the point the writer was making

dmg: first of the wario thing is bad but at the same time dk has maybe the best grab realese on wario and i hear dk's if they know what they are doing can get out of the grab but since i don't know all the details i wont go to far into it.

2nd : this post was assuming ddd did not have the inf on Dk

3rd: i was just pointing out he does well against the top teirs he juggles snake like no ones business i will say this i will wit and if i feel like it i will get info from a dk player since i don't know dk that well myself out side from playing against one

now lucario i have a friend (wont name names) who is a pretty dam good lucario and he told me he has had to pick up snake to take care of match-ups like mk and snake while a dk would not have to switch for those match-ups. also lucarios recovery sucks

i don't know much about the falco or diddy match-up and i know the oli match-up is bad but i won't comment on thoses until i have more info

It is possible to go lucario only in a tourney and have a shot, although highly not recommended.
DK is a different story.
Lucario has good recovery methods, arguably some of the best tools/traits offstage for his tier, arguably even higher. People forget that he doesn't need ES very much.
He really doesn't do much better for overall MU's even without the infinite. I actually agree with DMG, even though I hate watching his vids lol.
Lots of people really just need to be more patient around the MU, there are things even good players do in the MU that screw them over. imo I used to think DK deserved a bigger raise in tier, but the more I saw his tools, the more I saw him getting screwed over in more scenarios, and I think he's going to stay where he is, or possibly move 1 spot higher, but that's the biggest extent I see.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Man, when I left ZSS had an advantage. I missed the whole summer btw. This is my opinion after a week of being brought into it all. It's not about doing better than most of the cast. The mid-low tiers don't really matter. You said it yourself. Diddy owns most people, Wario does too, Falco can if played right. I remember for tier 2 I thought Falco was gonna be #2, but he got 3. I remember when I thought MK was unbeatable. I don't play the top character any more. Not after Fox in melee. I only play MK now because I am sure that he is not the best. (This isn't being used to prove a point). MK is good. We all know that. But he just isn't that good. He has nothing left. He is only breaking even now when others have a majority of advantages.

MK-2(Snake,Marth)
Snake-1(Falco)
Wario-3(Diddy, D3, Snake)
Falco-(D3)
Diddy-1(D3)
Marth-3(Diddy, Falco, Wario)
D3-1/2(Snake)
IC's-2(Falco, D3, both counters)

Just by advantages alone, Wario and Marth are at the top, then IC's and MK, followed by Marth, and Snake. MK just breaks even too much, when Wario leads most of the top tier. Marth always ***** but MK beats him hard. at the moment it just seems like MK is at a loss.

 

[Dark.Pch]

This is my tier list. I been with this thing for about an hour now thinking things through. I did not rush this list.

Meta Knight
Snake
Diddy Kong
Falco
King Dedede
Wario

Marth
Pikachu
Olimar
Mr. Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby

Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong
Peach
Luigi

Pit
Lucario
Fox
Wolf
Sonic
Sheik
Ike (cause I serious say Ike is a mid tier)

Bowser
Zelda
Pokémon Trainer
Ness

Mario
Lucas
Samus
Yoshi

Link
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

 

[ShadowLink84]

first off 3 good players matter b/c its more then most people can think of for higher tier characters such as wario

First: Apparently you did not understand what I told you earlier so I shall reiterate.
The players are NOT evidence of a characters potential, they ar an indication and only that, let aloe they are sway to changes in the metagame.

The palyers are also making use of traits that are already there and obviously will make the character appear better than thye character truly is when the level of skill is large enough.

The character did not change and no player cna do such a thing.

2nd: you call yourself a gentlemen with those manors,

Manors are buildings we live in,
manners is etiquette.

i think not you insult the whole lifestyle of a gentlemen with your crass why of speaking and if you were around here i would give you quite a thrashing.

You dare talk to me as if you are my superior!? HAVE AT YOU! *draws a rapier*

 

[phi1ny3]

When you look at the reasons why MK is top, you only need look at the tools and stages.
MK is theoretically very safe, every scenario that might put him at a disadvantage is a slippery slope that starts with him being careless, not because a character has something over him overall that defeats his game.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Dark.PcH, I gotta say a couple of things...

I guess I can see why MK is first... Even if I don't think so. Can you share why you said that?
Same for Snake.
How is D3 that high? He is 8 or below at least.
How is Wario that low? He is atleast past Falco if not Diddy, is currently #3.
Why are the IC's so low? They have the killer chain grab. I would put them in S, or at least above Olimar.
DK's gotta go up a little.
Peach and Luigi are way too high up! In between Fox and Wolf if you ask me.
How is Jigs above Falcon?
Why is Link so bad? He is developing. I would jump him up to 17, because he is pretty. And I love him (what you did was fine)

 

[Jupz]

I like Dark Peaches list, except for Pit, Lucario and Ike.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dark.PcH, I gotta say a couple of things...

I guess I can see why MK is first... Even if I don't think so. Can you share why you said that?
Same for Snake.
How is D3 that high? He is 8 or below at least.
How is Wario that low? He is atleast past Falco if not Diddy, is currently #3.
Why are the IC's so low? They have the killer chain grab. I would put them in S, or at least above Olimar.
DK's gotta go up a little.
Peach and Luigi are way too high up! In between Fox and Wolf if you ask me.
How is Jigs above Falcon?
Why is Link so bad? He is developing. I would jump him up to 17, because he is pretty. And I love him (what you did was fine)

Meta and Snake werwe already explained. I should not have too and it is seriously quite obvious dude.

D3 is hard to kill, has a chain grab on almost everyone and Can wall of pain people with his Bair. Uptilt kils well and is good of stage. Though I do think He is overratted. And people just don't use thier heads when figting him. He also has good range and a good air game.

Wario is not better than Falco or diddy. Falco has a better approach and his camping is good. He Also has a good upclose game. He is a solid fighter Only thing that sucks about him is his recovery, him being a fast faller and He is not a solid killer. Both Falco and diddy have more range than Wario and faster than him. Also have better way to set up kills. Wario is not better than those characters at all.

Jiggz has good air game. Good pressure game. And is good off the stage. And her recovery is not that bad with her jumps and pound. And is alright when killing people. it is possible to kill of the stage with Jiggs and be all over the enemy. Can be quite annoying. Falcon may have the speed but dones not really have a relible way to kill people. And can be edguard well dude to his recovery. Not much Falcon can do under pressure cause he does not have good out of shield options.

And IC. This is what I hear all the timeabout them "thier grab, one grab and that is game, that is all they need, they are the best!" BS Cause if it was that simple, they win every tourny they are in. People use thier hands. And some characters are hard to grab. it is not that simple to just grab someone and kill them. People seem to rely on grabs to much and let it be all about IC. Again, there is a reason he is not taking over tournaments.

DK is just about right

And hell no Peach and Luigi are too high. These are 2 underratted characters. Characters people know lil to nothing about at all. People always go off of what they see or hear. " Peach can't kill well. luigi can be gimped, Luigi is not that good cause no one does **** with him in tournaments, Peach is too easy to beat up andcamp against" All BS. People actually don't take the time to **** down and think about characters. Actulally sit down and look at them in and out. And the tournament experience with them. Everyone just talks BSand go by what they hear and see. But seriously don't know anything.

Link is good but his damm recovery screws him ovet bad againsta lot of characters. But he has a good ground game and projectile use. And is ok at killing. But when Pressures, that is when **** gets hard for link.