The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Jupz]

-reads previous page-

It seems to me as if you cannot really anaylze a characters traits and base there tier ranking on that :/

I have ulitimatly been wondering what is the best way to rank characters on the tier list. There are so many variables in brawl that it seems that a simple look at pros and cons will not work. Neither is peoples opinions. With opinions all you get is that yes snake is really good and at the top. Ganon is bad and at the bottom. Or others discussing over a single spot.

The only way I can think of accuratly looking at tier list spots are MU results. By looking at all the indiviual MUs, you automatcially look at all aspects of that those two characters you get a number for that match-up. Multiple that by all the possible MUs and that should reflect the characters total possibilities. Look at MK. He has all positive match-ups I believe that means without a doubt that he takes spot one. The next would more than likely not have any negitive match-ups. You cannot take an average as one character might have plenty of **** match-ups that offset there poor match-ups placing them higher than they should be.

Matchups are taken into account when deciding a tier list, but they are not the only way of deciding.

However when it comes down to a simple 1v1 match, ALL that matters is the MATCHUP. If for example the Metaknight vs Ganon matchup was even, that would mean if they were both the same skill they would both have an even chance at winning, even though Metaknight is the far superior character.

 

[ShadowLink84]

1st off even through your avatar has a top hat i can see you are no gentleman

You mistake me for a NICE gentleman, there are mean ones.

2nd: you read the 1st couple of words and based an opinion on that so yo sir are doing it wrong

Actually I read the entire thing, and frankly it is basically you spitting out that based on your own experience with these players Dk should go up.
That is not how it works.

3rd its not just one great player its at least 3 in this state alone and i know there is a least one more who's name escapes me at this moment. Thats more then i can name for most higher tiered characters

OMG 3 GOOD PLAYERS YOU REMEMBER!
That matters how?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

1. DK cannot get out of the CG when done properly. If Wario buffers his grabs, DK cannot get out until the aforementioned 110%. At that point he has to double jump out if he wants to avoid the grab. Doing this places him over Wario, which is not a good thing. The alternative is to keep getting grabbed though, so it's a lose lose situation for DK.

2. Wario gets grab released by DK, but that is a small attribute compared to a 0-110% CG that ends in a throw and puts DK into the air. The grab release options he gets do not compensate enough for the fact that once DK gets grabbed, bad things will happen lol.

3. DK... has many matchups where he should "switch". Your Lucario friend saying he has to pick up Snake for MK/Snake is no different that the DK player who has to pick up MK to handle Dedede/Wario/Falco/etc.

4. He does NOT do well against the top tiers, otherwise hell he would BE a top tier character lol. Name a top tier, besides Snake and possibly Marth, that DK does WELL against. I already named Falco, Diddy, Wario, MK, Dedede, Olimar, etc. that beat him. If he did WELL against top tiers, he would be even or better with most of them. He's NOT though.

doing well and winning are not always the same thing a and he does not get destroyed as far as i know by any of them. but i will stop posting b/c 1 i g2g and 2 i don't know dk that well besides from fighting them. Also i will say it might just be i that i live in dk country that makes him seem so good

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Matchups are taken into account when deciding a tier list, but they are not the only way of deciding.

What else is used in deciding?

 

[DMG]

doing well and winning are not always the same thing a and he does not get destroyed as far as i know by any of them. but i will stop posting b/c 1 i g2g and 2 i don't know dk that well besides from fighting them. Also i will say it might just be i that i live in dk country that makes him seem so good

Don't worry about it, a lot of players from NY/who know about Bum/DK players there have the same feelings as you. I know Inui thinks DK is decent with Infinites gone (and Wario's CG gone, which IMO would be a stupid rule aimed soely at DK but I've already talked to him about it earlier).

 

[zeldspazz]

Brawl is so queer when it comes to making a tier list, compared to other games xD
Too many different variables as stated.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Brawl is so queer when it comes to making a tier list, compared to other games xD
Too many different variables as stated.

I think any list is like that when you try to assign a specific spot for them. A general basis of high, low or mid seems to do just fine. A high tier only tourney seems pretty balenced, but a low or mid tier seems way to far apart. Like the comparison of Ike and Ganon. There differences seem to great.

 

[zeldspazz]

What I mean is that there are elements in brawl that are not in other games, like counterpicking stages, and CGs, and stuff like that.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What I mean is that there are elements in brawl that are not in other games, like counterpicking stages, and CGs, and stuff like that.

Oh. Well... Is it really that foreign? CGs are more like a really good "combo". Counterpicking can be related to strategic choices. I mean, if you ever meet someone you know plays as a certain character, you can always learn some other method that can "counter" that character. In brawl, it is just in other form of stages and more than one round.

 

[zeldspazz]

Think about how much that stages make a difference though.
It swings some MUs from disadvantages->advantages

Diddy on FD compared to say Battfield or RC
Falco on JJ

You get the idea. Not many other games have the ability to counter your opponent using a different character and a different stage.

 

[Ripple]

1. DK cannot get out of the CG when done properly. If Wario buffers his grabs, DK cannot get out until the aforementioned 110%.

4. He does NOT do well against the top tiers, otherwise hell he would BE a top tier character lol. Name a top tier, besides Snake and possibly Marth, that DK does WELL against. I already named Falco, Diddy, Wario, MK, Dedede, Olimar, etc. that beat him. If he did WELL against top tiers, he would be even or better with most of them. He's NOT though.

1. new develpment with the chaingbrab against DK

0-22% CG is escapable by way of my secret method
23-53% CG is not escapable
54-59% CG only lasts for 3 grabs
60-84% CG is not escapable
85-110% CG only lasts for 2-3 grabs

2. falco is 45-55
diddy is even or slight disadvantage, however the diddy boards think thats its DK's advantage. o_O
olimar is even and not disadvantage anymore because we learned the match up

 

[ShadowLink84]

1. new develpment with the chaingbrab against DK

0-22% CG is escapable by way of my secret method

Which totally helps other DK users.
Which you said was a 1 frame thing.
And DK has no 1 frame move that will save him in that time.

Its like GFSC for DK again!

 

[Ripple]

Which totally helps other DK users.
Which you said was a 1 frame thing.
And DK has no 1 frame move that will save him in that time.

Its like GFSC for DK again!

yes he does,(I'm serious, there would be not point in me lying, I just don't like saying everything) but it does not cause him to be invincible, although you can trip out of the chain grab you dash.

and other DK mains do know about it.

and GFSC can be useful if you prefer b-sticking but yes, its useful only against a few characters

 

[ook]

EDIT: ripple, what's the point of having a "secret method"? As soon as you do it once, people will know what it is :/ There's no reason to try to keep it a secret.

anyway....



Ok so I was thinking about this the other day... why should DDD's infinite have ANY effect on where DK is placed?

The thing about the tier list is, it's supposed to represent the characters at the very top levels of play. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what everyone always says. Right?


Now, DK vs DDD is a"gimmick" matchup. The only reason people say it's close to impossible is because of one move, the grab.
But... a top level DK playing that matchup will not get grabbed. He definitely has the tools to avoid it (down-b, side-b, bair) and AFAIK Dedede doesn't have any setups or guaranteed ways to get grabs. The only way he gets them is by DK not playing the matchup well. DK is really pretty well built for avoiding grabs.

So, at the top levels of play, the "gimmick" is essentially negated, and the resulting matchup is not bad at all.



Of course, saying "DK vs DDD isn't a bad matchup" is just plain stupid, and doesn't apply in real situations.
Which is why theoretical metagame discussions are stupid.

 

[zeldspazz]

Couldnt you just say a top level DDD will always find a way to get the grab?

Both characters at a top level of play people seem to forget.

 

[ShadowLink84]

yes he does,(I'm serious, there would be not point in me lying, I just don't like saying everything) but it does not cause him to be invincible, although you can trip out of the chain grab you dash.

Tripping isnt invincible on frame 1 plus it happens 3% of the time and results in you gettnig grabbed again anyway.
So what do you have in mind.

 

[Ripple]

Tripping isnt invincible on frame 1 plus it happens 3% of the time and results in you gettnig grabbed again anyway.
So what do you have in mind.

Assuming the opponent has poor enough range.

tripping invinvibility does activate frame 1.

the 1 open frame you have: use dash or buffer a dash

frame 2: DK's trip activates and is invincible/ Wario's grab box comes out

wario's grab misses 3% of the time if you "try" and trip out of it when you can

 

[Sky`]

Falco should be Third or second.
Wario has no place on the top Five.
DDD and Marth are Too low.
Diddy should more than likely stay at 5th.

Debate me.

 

[ShadowLink84]

tripping invinvibility does activate frame 1.

the 1 open frame you have: use dash or buffer a dash

frame 2: DK's trip activates and is invincible/ Wario's grab box comes out

wario's grab misses 3% of the time if you "try" and trip out of it when you can

Which is TERRIBLE!

 

[Jupz]

I would Sky but I agree with that lol. I'll help you debate

 

[Sky`]

^^ I know, they are kinda irrefutable. <3

 

[Ripple]

Which is TERRIBLE!

yes but if you can't do it the right way or don't have what you need to get out of it(major clue) its better than no chance

 

[ook]

Dash pivot punch.

 

[Ripple]

dash Pivot Punch.

Ook! It Was A Secret!!!!!!!!

 

[ook]

It won't be a secret anymore the moment you do it in a match. lol


The actual method isn't important... what's important is that we have a way to get out.

 

[Sky`]

Oh you DK mains and your adorable strategies.

 

[ShadowLink84]

yes but if you can't do it the right way or don't have what you need to get out of it(major clue) its better than no chance

The monkey above beat me to my guess.

Its stila TERRIBLE method.
One might as well expect DDD to trip during the CG.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Falco should be Third or second.
Wario has no place on the top Five.
DDD and Marth are Too low.
Diddy should more than likely stay at 5th.

Debate me.

Fine. Wario is crazy good! He has crazy fast aerials, moves crazy in the air. Small, heavy, strong. His recovery is awesome. Can kill at 40% with the fart(even if it is hard to pull off). There are no true flaws to this character.

DDD, he has lost some oh **** factor over the summer. The infinite isn't so great anymore, the chain grab isn't either. He is ok at best. I think he needs to go lower. Lower than G&W.

Marth... I agree, but I am biased because I am a Marth main. He can take some of top and all of A tier. He might go to up to 4 but that would be it. And I am talking 4 if he passes Falco... AND I really doubt that.

Diddy is crazy as well. Crazy nanners. I think he is top 3. My top 10 for the tiers are as follows

Ice Climbers (crazy chain grab (seriously, one grab =1 lost stock))
Wario (Just too good)
Diddy (Nanner spam)
Marth or Falco
Falco or Marth
MK (He just isn't as **** as before)
Snake (He will always be 1 below MK)
DDD
Pikachu(****ing chain grab and QAC(Go Anther))
G&W

We'll see though...

 

[zeldspazz]

How can you possibly put MK 6th and Snake 7th Jackie?

 

[Ripple]

The monkey above beat me to my guess.

Its stila TERRIBLE method.
One might as well expect DDD to trip during the CG.

you might as well expect it with DK since they chaingrab you the entire match. I'm still mad I've never had any DDD trip even in a match against me. with all that dashing they should be tripping 2x a game.

 

[zeldspazz]

Why are you guys even discussing this thing to get out of the CG? What happens once you get out?

You wait to get grabbed again.
Great game changer.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Dude, so much weird crap has happened. I play both of them just so you know. I guess so many people focused on beating MK that he just kinda broke. IC's kill MK by 1 grab, Wario can out camp him. Diddy is considered a counter. Falco beats him flat out on FD. And otherwise it's even. Marth might be below him... But Marth actually covers more mid-low tiers at a higher advantage... Snake has no approach moves (or any safe ones that is). Once he is in the air, then what? Although he is really strong, he is out-campable, out-runnable, very combo/jugglable, Takes Falco's lasers, and still has to fight MK. He just loses to all of those characters above him.

 

[Jupz]

IC's 1? MK 6??? Snake 7?

 

[zeldspazz]

Nobody counters MK as of right now.
That IC theory is flawed, cus if you just go by that then they should always win every match every time, and they get ***** by Snake.
Falco does not beat him on FD.
You should go play a good MK. Seriously.

Youre also forgetting that MK is still placing in tournaments by far better than any other character right now.

 

[Tien2500]

Falco should be Third or second.
Wario has no place on the top Five.
DDD and Marth are Too low.
Diddy should more than likely stay at 5th.

Debate me.

Falco should not be third or second. Having a more or less unwinnable matchup against a high tier on its own kind of puts him at least out of second. Falco also has several disadvantaged matchups which Snake and MK don't have and is Cped easier than both of them and Wario. I think fourth/fifth is right for Falco.

DDD has too many bad matchups to be much higher. Marth has one but its a huge one which will keep him out of the top tier. The only place he can go up is above Dedede.

If Diddy stays at 5th and Wario shouldn't be in the top 5 than who is #4?

 

[FatJackieChan]

Never have played a good MK, never seen a good MK. I'm in the Mid west... We don't have any.
IC's should win every match if you do it right. I have only seen the chain grab a couple of times, so I don't know why they lose to certain people (save Marth, he gets out with and up-B past 45% (it must be like that)). I don't think MK gets out though...
Falco beats him on FD, are you kidding me? Falco beats like everyone but Diddy on FD... I know that both the MK boards and the Falco boards say that he wins on FD. Even then it's 50-50...
And I meant Diddy as a figurative counter. It isn't a 70-30%, but any where from even to Diddy's advantage... (That is still being discussed)

Oh, and for the record, I should say that Wario and IC's are tied for first!

EDIT: Tien, he thinks that Marth/DDD should move to 4

 

[Sky`]

Falco should not be third or second. Having a more or less unwinnable matchup against a high tier on its own kind of puts him at least out of second. Falco also has several disadvantaged matchups which Snake and MK don't have and is Cped easier than both of them and Wario. I think fourth/fifth is right for Falco.

DDD has too many bad matchups to be much higher. Marth has one but its a huge one which will keep him out of the top tier. The only place he can go up is above Dedede.

If Diddy stays at 5th and Wario shouldn't be in the top 5 than who is #4?

What is falco's Unwinnable matchup?

And Pray tell, what are DDD's 'bad' matchups?

America is behind on the DDD metagame. Atomsk is amazing, yes.
However there are still so many ways to play DDD. The Japanese have exploited that fact.

 

[DMG]

Ok so DK has one frame to get out right? (If it was more than 1 frame, DK would be able to spotdodge. You might have only 1 frame or you might have none). How is dash pivot punching gonna get you out?

These are your frame windows:

Frame 1- Dash Initiated/Wario is able to grab on this frame (if it was frame two, you would be able to spotdodge, which is not the case)

Frame 2- Pivot AND move Control Stick to neutral to allow the Punch to come out instead of doing Side B.


So you are telling me that even though Wario's grab initiates on your 1 frame of opportunity, that you somehow have an extra frame to Not only Pivot, but to return the Control Stick to Neutral and Press B all in the same frame?

Cmon now lol.

 

[Tien2500]

Dude, so much weird crap has happened. I play both of them just so you know. I guess so many people focused on beating MK that he just kinda broke. IC's kill MK by 1 grab,

No not really. Even top Ice Climbers don't get the CG 100% of the time. Plus MK has the tools to avoid the grab in the first place.

Wario can out camp him.

Maybe on some stages. But he needs a lead first. And even then outcamping for 6+ minutes isn't easy.

Diddy is considered a counter.

By who? On FD Diddy may have an advantage. And FD will be banned.

Falco beats him flat out on FD.

MK would strike then ban FD.

And otherwise it's even.

What about Brinstar/RC?

Marth might be below him... But Marth actually covers more mid-low tiers at a higher advantage...

Mid/low tiers are not that important really.

Snake has no approach moves (or any safe ones that is). Once he is in the air, then what? Although he is really strong, he is out-campable, out-runnable, very combo/jugglable.

Most of the cast has to approach him and take on his range. Then he also has weight and power on his side. And he controls the stage incredibly well. And who outcamps him? Falco is debatable. Who else?

Takes Falco's lasers, and still has to fight MK. He just loses to all of those characters above him.

The MK match is only a slight disadvantage. Snake goes even or beats pretty much everyone else in Top tier I think. Dedede debatably has a slight advantage.

What is falco's Unwinnable matchup?

And Pray tell, what are DDD's 'bad' matchups?

America is behind on the DDD metagame. Atomsk is amazing, yes.
However there are still so many ways to play DDD. The Japanese have exploited that fact.

Climbers for Falco. I'm also not sure if he can deal with MK planking. From my understanding Dedede has problems with the Climbers, Falco, Olimar, and Pika which are all up there on the tier list. He has the advantage of completely shutting down a large portion of the cast but most of the characters he does aren't common tourney characters. And Dedede doesn't really excel against many top characters.

As for his metagame... It could very well improve in the future and when that happens tier lists should reflect that. But the tier list should be based on the top of the American metagame so as of now I don't see him moving above any of the characters above him.

 

[zeldspazz]

Never have played a good MK, never seen a good MK. I'm in the Mid west... We don't have any.

This should be enough for you to stop talking, cus then you dont know what you're talking about.

IC's should win every match if you do it right. I have only seen the chain grab a couple of times, so I don't know why they lose to certain people (save Marth, he gets out with and up-B past 45% (it must be like that)). I don't think MK gets out though...

Except for that the IC grab range is horrific. Anyone with any decent range is going to keep them out.

Falco beats him on FD, are you kidding me? Falco beats like everyone but Diddy on FD... I know that both the MK boards and the Falco boards say that he wins on FD. Even then it's 50-50...

Even if this is true, how does Falco fair on other stages? To win you have to beat your opponent 2/3 matches. Where is Falco going those other 2?

And I meant Diddy as a figurative counter. It isn't a 70-30%, but any where from even to Diddy's advantage... (That is still being discussed)

I know this. 50-50 is not a counter. Neither is 55-45 Diddy advantage..

Oh, and for the record, I should say that Wario and IC's are tied for first!

Why