da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Thats like saying DK and bowser should move up because nobody will ever use them against DDD so that doesnt count.
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
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ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
This, it does not matter i the player choose not to use the character for such a horrid matchup, the fact that the matchup exists is enough reason.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
RichBrown
Smash Master
Ken Neth didn't beat me :/
gm jack
Smash Lord
However, unlike people like Bowser and DK vs DDD, Sheik's is a valid option to avoid the matchup even by chance. The tier list is based on viability. If that includes a Sheik main using down B to avoid complete ****, then so be it. You can't limit Sheik by refusal to use something that drastically affects a matchup. If you took down B from diddy, he would be drastically worse.
I know this related back to the fact that they should take a single, combined placement, but I think even if ranked separately, the fact it completely changes tournament viability should be taken into account when ranking Sheik. You could say do it the other way around, but then you would barely use Zelda at all.
zeldspazz
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2008
- Messages
- 3,432
This is why I think that the SBR should put Zelda/Sheik as one character along with a solo Zelda and solo Sheik, because the fact is that, like gm jack said, using downb is part of Sheik's moveset. It's is a legit move that can be used at anytime during the match. I tihnk by herself, Sheik is high C tier, barely underneath B, like you Kinzer, but the point is Zelda is useful and always available, so why not expand they're versatility and viability as one character?
Idk, its just how I think when it comes to downb with Sheik. imo, its a move that should be taken into account when discussing the tier list.
Idk, its just how I think when it comes to downb with Sheik. imo, its a move that should be taken into account when discussing the tier list.
No... it's not. It's nothing like that at all.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Not necessarily, you are only half right. Depending on the way the tierlist is used, the ignorance of her transformationc an occur.
She isn't like PT where she WILL transform, it is an option an as such, they made the seperate placement, so she MUST be considered alone in such a case.
I agree primarily because it does make more of an impact hthan it did in melee, however, if the tierlists are assuming seperate characters, then we should speak of them with the absence of the other.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
True. I'm glad you understand it. I separated them because now, lots of tournaments allow the pokemon separate on the character select screen, so now it is possible to play Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur separate. No fatigue and forced switching either. When pokemon trainer is played normally, without switching, besides the force switching when you respawn. They are calculated as an average.
Read above. And if you want to get all technical about it...
This is when you use Squirtle the most. We'll say you use him for 2 stocks, and you use Ivysaur 5% for the match, and Charizard 25% for the match. Or... 70% Squirtle, 25% Charizard, 5% Ivysaur, and other team set up formulas. Using my tier list by the way...
C Tier (Middle-High Tier) Half way there.
Donkey Kong 7.9
Peach 7.8
Luigi 7.7
Squirtle 7.6 (No forced switching. No fatigue. Stand alone character.)
Fox 7.5
Wolf 7.4
Squirtle Trainer (70% Squirtle. 25% Charizard. 5% Ivysaur. Average 7.0)
Zelda/Shiek (Used as both) 7.0
D (Middle-Low Tier) Half way there.
Shiek 6.8
Ness 6.7
Lucas 6.6
Charizard Trainer (70% Charizard. 25% Squirtle. 5% Ivysaur. Average 6.6)
Sonic 6.4
Bowser 6.3
Charizard 6.2 (Stand alone character. No fatigue or forced switching.)
Pokemon Trainer 6.2 (as an average. All 3 pokemon used equally for each stock.)
E Tier (Low Tier) At the low part of the mountain.
Yoshi 5.9
Zelda 5.8
Ivysaur Trainer (70% Ivysaur. 25% Squirtle. 5% Charizard. Average 5.8)
Ike 5.7
Mario 5.5
Ivysaur Trainer #2 (70% Ivysaur. 25% Charizard. 5% Squirtle. Average 5.4)
Samus 5.2
Jigglypuff 5.0
F Tier (Bottom Tier) On ground level.
Captain Falcon 4.9
Ivysaur 4.8
Link 4.7
Ganondorf 4.4
Popo 4.3
Nana 4.3
Notice the different types of pokemon trainers. There are the stand alones, Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle. There are the specialized trainers. Squirtle trainer, Charizard trainer, Ivysaur trainer, they each overuse one pokemon, they normally use that pokemon for 2 stocks, otherwise known as 70% of the match. Then finally, there is the Balanced Pokemon Trainer, that uses all 3 pokemon equally.
Also, notice how I made each of them differential by 4. Like...
Squirtle Trainer 7.0 - 0.4 = 6.6
Charizard Trainer 6.6 - 0.4 = 6.2
Pokemon Trainer (Balanced) 6.2 - 0.4 = 5.8
Ivysaur Trainer 5.8 - 0.4 = 5.4
Ivysaur Trainer #2. 5.4
It's differential by 4 because that's the math formula I used. I added Ivysaur trainer #2 to show what it would look like if a trainer ignored Squirtle in the team, making it probably the worst team set up for Pokemon Trainer. ( A few match ups may be the exception.) But overall, this is their averages for each trainer and pokemon.
Then we're arguing two entirely different points. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be listed as 1 character. I was saying that the way Calibur arrived at that 1 characters ranking wasn't right.
Well its good that you're trying but averages are not really useful here (and just causes a lot of clutter). A PT user will use the different pokemon different amounts in different matches. For example against MK I would use Ivy as little as possible but Yoshi I would play Ivy more than Squirtle.
If you want to get an accurate placing for PT you have to look at them as a whole unit. You have to analyze their matchups figuring out which Pokes they'll be using most in each. Then you have to take into account factors such as fatigue, the advantages of switching (such as being able to progressively get heavier as the match goes on) and other things. They are a very complicated character and you're not going to be able to simplify it with any mathematical formula.
YesNoMaybeSo
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2009
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- 129
Well, atleast we're getting somewhere here. We figured out the best and the worst characters in the game :D.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
We figured that out like 54096735489670985476 days ago.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
Yeah I know. You can never measure it precisely, but at least you can estimate an average. And yeah, knowing when to use a certain pokemon during a certain match is very important. Ivysaur may be the worst of the 3 overall, but depending on the match up it can change to Ivysaur's favor. And also some stages are suited better than others, so Ivysaur won't get gimped easily. And I was trying to make a point with Shadow Hero. And knock some sense in his brain. lol.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
People need to stop thinking that DDD is an awful matchup that holds Bowser back, he has worse matchups.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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What would you say typically are the important factors for determining a characters potiential? Recovery, Killing Prowess, Projectile, Stage Control and Spacing seems to be the big ones to me.
ICs
Biggest factor for potential is figuring out how good their defensive game is. The best characters in the game also usually have the best defensive games (MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, Wario, Marth, Dedede, etc).
Past that, stage control/range, Mobility (ground and speed), and recovery make up the rest. If your character has good range/stage control, good recovery, excellent defensive game, and good mobility, chances are that the character is really good.
Past that, stage control/range, Mobility (ground and speed), and recovery make up the rest. If your character has good range/stage control, good recovery, excellent defensive game, and good mobility, chances are that the character is really good.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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Then how do you explain a character like Link and Samus? In guessing I would say they have excellent stage control, range and overall good defensive game. However, they are at the bottom of the tier list and everyone keeps mentioning their other horrible aspects keep them from being that good. For Link, it is more than likely his recovery that is lacking. For Samus, it is her killing ability.
zeldspazz
Smash Master
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- Dec 29, 2008
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- 3,432
This is what I was talking about.
Branch off. Tell me why he would be. Why does he do so good against other characters? Dont just say that and expect me to take it lol
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
While their defensive game may appear good, they really don't compare to the higher tiers...
I don't know the inner workings or fine details of Link, but I would say basically that his defensive game has a bad risk:reward ratio, as he keeps them at bay he only gets chip damage, but once a character gets in they can punish him very hard...
Samus's defensive game isn't bad, but her lack of a proper kill setup hurts her against other characters' defensive games... As she has to be much more aggressive for a kill than say, MK, who can wait for a forced misspacing and SL out of shield, which is a VERY safe, defensive killing strategy... Samus lacks this.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
I don't know why, but a lot of people forget about edge guarding options. A character with some very nice edge guarding options usually can afford to go off the stage and attack, and still have a good enough recovery to make it back onto the stage. Speed is another big attribute. Aerial speed, walking speed, running speed, attacking speed, short start up and cool down on most useful attacks, etc.What would you say typically are the important factors for determining a characters potiential? Recovery, Killing Prowess, Projectile, Stage Control and Spacing seems to be the big ones to me.
ICs
He would not be THAT much higher with Dedede gone/his infinite removed. I had this discussion a bit ago in a thread discussing infinite grabs. I'll get into it in a bit.
Not by that much really.
When I say defensive game, I'm not talking about just camping with projectiles or having a lot of range. That's not good enough to warrant a good defensive game. Characters that are good defensively have great tools to punish opponents from approaching. For example, Snake has a fairly good OOS game. He can shield most attacks and retaliate fairly safely with a Ftilt/Utilt/jab or grab. Compare him to a character like Link or Samus. If I hit Samus Shield, what is she going to do to punish me? Will it even land? If I put pressure on Link/Samus shield, how are they going to retaliate safely/fast enough to stop me?
They both actually don't have THAT good of stage control. Sure, they have projectiles/Zair, but those are nearly incomparable to Bananas, Lasers, Grenades, Pikmin, etc.
Ok here's the deal with DK and Dedede:
People complain again and again that DK would be higher if Dedede was removed/his infinite gone (some people have used that as a reason to remove Dedede's infinite). Now while it IS true that DK would rise some with the infinite gone, a lot of people fail to realize the bigger picture.
Look at DK's matchups. Look at how many bad matchups, ASIDE FROM DEDEDE, that he already has. He has a lot of matchups that are 60:40 or worse. Look at the stages. He doesn't have very many promising stages overall.
DK, on his own with Dedede gone, is STILL not that great of a character. He's not better than Lucario/TL/ZSS, he's arguably better than Peach/Wolf, really if you look at where he is at you would see that he doesn't have much room to reasonably move up. This is assuming Dedede was gone. Once you add in Dedede, he's pretty much in the right spot (maybe could drop another spot or two, but he's pretty much stuck right there with Dedede in play).
So yes, Donkey Kong would/should rise some if Dedede was hampered, but if you look at the rest of DK, it's not promising enough to warrant a jump bigger than 1-2 spots, maybe 3 at most.
Yeah Dedede still beats DK without the infinite.
So, a Lol matchup becomes, maybe 65:35, 60:40 at best for DK. I would find it hard to believe that a character can jump more than 1-2 spots just because a single matchup of his improved from ******** to bearable, but still disadvantaged.
I could see that MAYBE if the character was well rounded, but got buttraped by MK/Snake and then an improvement was found to make it 60:40 or 65:35, I could MAYBE see in an instance like that the character moving up 2 spots or so.
So, a Lol matchup becomes, maybe 65:35, 60:40 at best for DK. I would find it hard to believe that a character can jump more than 1-2 spots just because a single matchup of his improved from ******** to bearable, but still disadvantaged.
I could see that MAYBE if the character was well rounded, but got buttraped by MK/Snake and then an improvement was found to make it 60:40 or 65:35, I could MAYBE see in an instance like that the character moving up 2 spots or so.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Ehhh, I don't think its reasonable to discuss a matchup with a character's tool's removed...
ETA: Reflex beat me to it... DDD still wins yea.
But dat monkey also has some troubles with landing safely, assuming the opposing character can keep them in the air reasonably well.
ETA: Reflex beat me to it... DDD still wins yea.
But dat monkey also has some troubles with landing safely, assuming the opposing character can keep them in the air reasonably well.
I agree for the most part, however it's usually agreed that Dedede would still beat DK with the infinite removed. If we play along and say "Ok Dedede can't infinite you", then the next thing is "Yeah but Dedede still beats you, so you get a small improvement in that matchup" and "Is that improvement enough to warrant DK jumping more than 1-2 spots, considering his other matchups/facets?". Once you ask those questions, people should see that yes DK would be a bit better, but not by a large enough amount to warrant a significant spot jump.
So while I don't like talking about "what if" scenarios where a character becomes theoretically hampered, I think in this instance the resulting situation plays out fairly predictably, making it easier to just go along with the "what if" and prove your point right.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
you sir have never played a great DK. i have played bum in tourney and now i often play maybe the 2nd or at least 3rd best DK in NY on a regular bases and let me tell you DK is a very good character. his match-up against snake is not as bad as people say, he has some trouble with mk but it should be noted his f-tilt shuts down nado seeing how thats a oddly large problem in the dk mk match-up (as seen in the m2k video were he spams it to win). but what really makes DK better then you seem to think is his ability to survive. With his momentum cancel he can live to stupidly high dmg and he can kill at stupidly low dmg. I think he is better then or just as good as lucario, TL, and ZZS.
You should trust me on this NY is Donkey Kong Country :Bum, Anti, Will
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
As soon as you say things like this there really is no reason to continue.
Pretty much defined the rest of your rant which is unimportant and does not matter.
Oh and yes I played all those DK's as well.
DK's momentum cancelling is not that great. (I'm assuming you mean with his Up B unless Side B cancels or something). After using it he has no recovery options left and falls in a fairly predictable pattern. Anyone with a good offstage game can just kill him afterwards.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Actually DK's momentum canceling is bull**** in terms of how incredble it is.
Side B momentum cancels completely.
Side B, reverse bair anyone who tries to attack, ^B to safety.
Lives forever this way.
Yeah I thought Side B may work but I've never had it used on me or seen it in battle. I'f only seen people use the Up B. If Side B is that useful than what I said can be disregarded.
Ok so Donkey Kong is a better character that I give him credit for because his Ftilt hits MK out of tornado (depends on positioning, MK can sometimes just go through Ftilt like nothing happened), because his matchup with Snake is decent, and because he can live long?
... Is that it? Lol. Go look at DK's matchups. Go look at his current spot on the tier list. Do you honestly think that DK is better than Lucario, TL, ZSS, or Pit? If you think so, go compile a list of their matchups and compare them. Go ask top players how they feel. Look at DK's tools, and compare them to ZSS/TL/Lucario. I think you will be disappointed to see that he's honestly not better than them.
Do Lucario/ZSS/TL have a matchup or two that is loltastic? Like as bad as Dedede vs DK? Do they have matchups like Wario vs DK, where the other character has a stupidly long CG/powerful tool that sets them up at the end into the air? How much better does DK do against the top tiers than ZSS/TL/Lucario? Remember he already loses at least 6:4 to Wario, Falco, Dedede, MK, Diddy, and Olimar. The only top tiers he might REALLY do that much better against is Snake and debatably Marth. Aside from those two, he either does about the same or worse than those other characters.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
ah i did write that wrong what i ment to write was
IT SEEMS TO ME GOOD SIR THAT YOU MUST NEVER OF FOUGHT AGAINST A GREAT DK TO HAVE THAT OPION OF HIM AND I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE FOR THESE REASONS I WILL POST BELOW
Also just b/c you disagree with something someone wrote if that part of the so called rant has nothing to do with the points they are making then ignore that part and focus on the parts that are making the point. stopping were you presumably stopped reading would make you ignorant and uninformed to the point the writer was making
dmg: first of the wario thing is bad but at the same time dk has maybe the best grab realese on wario and i hear dk's if they know what they are doing can get out of the grab but since i don't know all the details i wont go to far into it.
2nd : this post was assuming ddd did not have the inf on Dk
3rd: i was just pointing out he does well against the top teirs he juggles snake like no ones business i will say this i will wit and if i feel like it i will get info from a dk player since i don't know dk that well myself out side from playing against one
now lucario i have a friend (wont name names) who is a pretty dam good lucario and he told me he has had to pick up snake to take care of match-ups like mk and snake while a dk would not have to switch for those match-ups. also lucarios recovery sucks
i don't know much about the falco or diddy match-up and i know the oli match-up is bad but i won't comment on thoses until i have more info
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Actually you're still doing it wrong. It is like this "I AM SO INCAPABLE OF REFUTING MY OPPONENTS ARGUMENTS THAT I SHALL ATTACK THEM AND CLAIM THEY NEVER PLAYED A GREAT DK PLAYER, AS IF THIS WILL SOMEHOW CHANGE THE CHARACTERS TRAIT! PIP PIP CHEERIO!"
Do it right or dont do it at all
Why yes, yes I shall ignore the rest of your argument.
The characters traits dont change just because a great player uses him.
Ganondorf still sucks.
So does Link, Falcon, everyone not named MK/Snake.
So to start an argument based on your opponent's experience is TERRIBLE and not worthy of discussion.
Jupz
Smash Master
What do you guys feel about toon link's position? What about Lucario?
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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- Aug 6, 2008
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- 19,345
-reads previous page-
It seems to me as if you cannot really anaylze a characters traits and base there tier ranking on that :/
I have ulitimatly been wondering what is the best way to rank characters on the tier list. There are so many variables in brawl that it seems that a simple look at pros and cons will not work. Neither is peoples opinions. With opinions all you get is that yes snake is really good and at the top. Ganon is bad and at the bottom. Or others discussing over a single spot.
The only way I can think of accuratly looking at tier list spots are MU results. By looking at all the indiviual MUs, you automatcially look at all aspects of that those two characters you get a number for that match-up. Multiple that by all the possible MUs and that should reflect the characters total possibilities. Look at MK. He has all positive match-ups I believe that means without a doubt that he takes spot one. The next would more than likely not have any negitive match-ups. You cannot take an average as one character might have plenty of **** match-ups that offset there poor match-ups placing them higher than they should be.
It seems to me as if you cannot really anaylze a characters traits and base there tier ranking on that :/
I have ulitimatly been wondering what is the best way to rank characters on the tier list. There are so many variables in brawl that it seems that a simple look at pros and cons will not work. Neither is peoples opinions. With opinions all you get is that yes snake is really good and at the top. Ganon is bad and at the bottom. Or others discussing over a single spot.
The only way I can think of accuratly looking at tier list spots are MU results. By looking at all the indiviual MUs, you automatcially look at all aspects of that those two characters you get a number for that match-up. Multiple that by all the possible MUs and that should reflect the characters total possibilities. Look at MK. He has all positive match-ups I believe that means without a doubt that he takes spot one. The next would more than likely not have any negitive match-ups. You cannot take an average as one character might have plenty of **** match-ups that offset there poor match-ups placing them higher than they should be.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
1st off even through your avatar has a top hat i can see you are no gentleman
2nd: you read the 1st couple of words and based an opinion on that so yo sir are doing it wrong
3rd its not just one great player its at least 3 in this state alone and i know there is a least one more who's name escapes me at this moment. Thats more then i can name for most higher tiered characters
1. DK cannot get out of the CG when done properly. If Wario buffers his grabs, DK cannot get out until the aforementioned 110%. At that point he has to double jump out if he wants to avoid the grab. Doing this places him over Wario, which is not a good thing. The alternative is to keep getting grabbed though, so it's a lose lose situation for DK.
2. Wario gets grab released by DK, but that is a small attribute compared to a 0-110% CG that ends in a throw and puts DK into the air. The grab release options he gets do not compensate enough for the fact that once DK gets grabbed, bad things will happen lol.
3. DK... has many matchups where he should "switch". Your Lucario friend saying he has to pick up Snake for MK/Snake is no different that the DK player who has to pick up MK to handle Dedede/Wario/Falco/etc.
4. He does NOT do well against the top tiers, otherwise hell he would BE a top tier character lol. Name a top tier, besides Snake and possibly Marth, that DK does WELL against. I already named Falco, Diddy, Wario, MK, Dedede, Olimar, etc. that beat him. If he did WELL against top tiers, he would be even or better with most of them. He's NOT though.
2. Wario gets grab released by DK, but that is a small attribute compared to a 0-110% CG that ends in a throw and puts DK into the air. The grab release options he gets do not compensate enough for the fact that once DK gets grabbed, bad things will happen lol.
3. DK... has many matchups where he should "switch". Your Lucario friend saying he has to pick up Snake for MK/Snake is no different that the DK player who has to pick up MK to handle Dedede/Wario/Falco/etc.
4. He does NOT do well against the top tiers, otherwise hell he would BE a top tier character lol. Name a top tier, besides Snake and possibly Marth, that DK does WELL against. I already named Falco, Diddy, Wario, MK, Dedede, Olimar, etc. that beat him. If he did WELL against top tiers, he would be even or better with most of them. He's NOT though.
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