The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Tien2500]

He's fast but what does that do for you? He lacks solid approach options or defensive options or OOS options. He's fast in the air but he he doesn't have the tight control of a character like Wario so he can't really take advantage of it. He's gimpable and has lackluster kill options. Basically if you want to win with Falcon in just about any matchup you're going to need your opponent to make some sizable mistakes.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Pretty much all of the PT are underrated here. Ivy is WAY better than Falcon. And Jigglypuff. And Samus. And might be slightly better than Mario.

And you cannot average the three Pokemon to rate trainer. PT mains are not using all of the Pokemon equally so you can't average the three together as if they are played an equal amount.

It doesnt matter what the players are doing. What matters is the character and only the character.

 

[lordvaati]

I've been playing all the characters that I have not been familiar with, to get a better idea about how they would place on the tier list. This tier list goes further in depth, adding PT's pokemon as separate, and PT as an average all together, same with Zelda and Shiek. The numbers represent a scale from 1-10. 10 Being the best. I have researched facts to come up with this tier list. This is what the current metagame is right now, although it can change slightly. But so far I'm satisfied with this list.

S Tier (Super Tier) In the heavens.
Meta Knight 10.0
Snake 9.9

A Tier (Top Tier) On top of the mountain.
Diddy Kong 9.7
Wario 9.6
Falco 9.5
King Dedede 9.4
Marth 9.3
Pikachu 9.2
Ice Climbers 9.1

B Tier (High Tier) Almost at the top of the mountain.
Mr. Game & Watch 8.9
Olimar and Pikmin 8.7
Zero Suit Samus 8.6
Toon Link 8.4
Pit 8.3
ROB 8.2
Lucario 8.1
Kirby 8.0

C Tier (Middle-High Tier) Half way there.
Donkey Kong 7.9
Peach 7.8
Luigi 7.7
Squirtle 7.6
Fox 7.5
Wolf 7.4
Zelda/Shiek (Used as both) 7.0

D (Middle-Low Tier) Half way there.
Shiek 6.8
Ness 6.7
Lucas 6.6
Sonic 6.4
Bowser 6.3
Charizard 6.2
Pokemon Trainer 6.2 (as an average)

E Tier (Low Tier) At the low part of the mountain.
Yoshi 5.9
Zelda 5.8
Ike 5.7
Mario 5.5
Samus 5.2
Jigglypuff 5.0

F Tier (Bottom Tier) On ground level.
Captain Falcon 4.9
Ivysaur 4.8
Link 4.7
Ganondorf 4.4
Popo 4.3
Nana 4.3

this list, I like.

 

[Tien2500]

It doesnt matter what the players are doing. What matters is the character and only the character.

Huh? I'm not sure what you're getting at here

Edit:

It doesnt matter what the players are doing. What matters is the character and only the character.

Well I'll answer this question based on what I think you mean...

Calibur champs list had the three trainer pokemon averaged to get the score for Trainer. This assumes that each of them is being used equally.

The thing is that Pokemon Trainer's down B is an option he has (or a strategy). The tier list should be based on the characters using the best options. If a Pokemon Trainer main is using Trainer to his full potential based on the current metagame then they should be using Squirtle as much as possible, Charizard next most, and then Ivysaur least. In most matchups anyway.

Calibur's rating of Pokemon Trainer assumes that all three pokemon are used equally and is therefore not based on Pokemon Trainer's best options.

 

[Spelt]

Falco and Lucas are the only ones i strongly disagree with.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Huh? I'm not sure what you're getting at here

Edit:

Well I'll answer this question based on what I think you mean...

Calibur champs list had the three trainer pokemon averaged to get the score for Trainer. This assumes that each of them is being used equally.

The thing is that Pokemon Trainer's down B is an option he has (or a strategy). The tier list should be based on the characters using the best options. If a Pokemon Trainer main is using Trainer to his full potential based on the current metagame then they should be using Squirtle as much as possible, Charizard next most, and then Ivysaur least. In most matchups anyway.

Calibur's rating of Pokemon Trainer assumes that all three pokemon are used equally and is therefore not based on Pokemon Trainer's best options.

Which is WRONG. A tierlist measures the capability of a character in comparison to the others.
The amount of usage each character sees is irrelevant. WHat is assumed is thata t thehighest level of play, PT is using the best chances to win. Using charizard and Squirtle and Ivysaur for mathcups most suitable while playing to quickly circumvent the pokemon hurt most.

Judging a characters placement based on usage is a terrible idea.

pokemon trainer's down b is not a strategy, its a requirement. You either change now or you change later, it is not a choice liek Zelda and SHeik.

 

[Tien2500]

Which is WRONG. A tierlist measures the capability of a character in comparison to the others.
The amount of usage each character sees is irrelevant. WHat is assumed is thata t thehighest level of play, PT is using the best chances to win. Using charizard and Squirtle and Ivysaur for mathcups most suitable while playing to quickly circumvent the pokemon hurt most.

Judging a characters placement based on usage is a terrible idea.

pokemon trainer's down b is not a strategy, its a requirement. You either change now or you change later, it is not a choice liek Zelda and SHeik.

Maybe I'm not expressing this right.

Yes I am going to have to use each Pokemon over the course of a match. But the player can control how much time they spend using each Pokemon. At the highest level of play Squirtle is being used far more than Ivysaur is. So why should Ivysaur and Squirtle have the same amount of weight in Pokemon Trainer's tier placement?

 

[Deleted member]

Chu im not gonna answer you because you obviously wont budge XD
Its clear from your response.

He's fast but what does that do for you? He lacks solid approach options or defensive options or OOS options. He's fast in the air but he he doesn't have the tight control of a character like Wario so he can't really take advantage of it. He's gimpable and has lackluster kill options. Basically if you want to win with Falcon in just about any matchup you're going to need your opponent to make some sizable mistakes.

His approach is very versitile, because of his many tools for doing so, and his double jump is one of the best in the game. Fast falled up air, neutral air(sometimes), and fast falled back air are all pretty good approach options, but only because of his grab and jab. All of those options have very little landing lag and falcon falls fast, so you can often jab or grab the retaliation. Of course, falcons approach isnt GOOD, and the key to playing falcon is baiting with his speed (and though baits are player specific, ganondorf cant bait when he double jumps because his moves lag and hes slow in the air, and falcon has better options for this than many top tiers as well).

His defensive options arent great, depends what you mean by that. Jab is a great defensive tool, leads to a bunch of stuff, etc. His up air has massive range on all sides really, and its a very nice tool to whack shields adn back off.

His OOS sucks ill give you that, but i mained yoshi for a year and a half (now i main wolf, 2nd falcon) so anythign is a blessing xD

Airspeed is mostly for punishing, quick mobility around the stage, etc. Just because he doesnt have huge air control doesnt mean this isnt a massive bonus. If he had meta knights air speed hed be definately the worst character.

Saying that an opponent needs to make a sizable mistake is simply not true, with any character, except at the very highest level of play, in which this applies for many characters

 

[Captain L]

He has no projectile. His approaches suck. His recovery sucks. His kill moves suck. He gets ***** by CG's. His grab range sucks. He gets ***** by most high tier characters.
Falcon just flat out sucks.

Wasn't there already a huge discussion about projectiles and hasn't it already been stated that they really aren't all that great?
About his kill moves sucking, while it's true that his smashes are pretty bad, his fair is a very potent kill move and isn't easy to punish if it misses.
Plus, there are others who get ***** by CGs worse than him who are still decently high on the tier list. I'm not saying that this automatically makes Falcon just as viable as them, I'm just saying that it only kills him in a few matchups.

 

[Gindler]

Pretty much all of the PT are underrated here. Ivy is WAY better than Falcon. And Jigglypuff. And Samus. And might be slightly better than Mario.

And you cannot average the three Pokemon to rate trainer. PT mains are not using all of the Pokemon equally so you can't average the three together as if they are played an equal amount.

I like Ivy a lot. But Mario is WAY better than her.

 

[Llumys]

I'm liking Calibur's list. I just think Falco and Wario should be switched.

 

[Tien2500]

Chu im not gonna answer you because you obviously wont budge XD
Its clear from your response.
His approach is very versitile, because of his many tools for doing so, and his double jump is one of the best in the game. Fast falled up air, neutral air(sometimes), and fast falled back air are all pretty good approach options, but only because of his grab and jab. All of those options have very little landing lag and falcon falls fast, so you can often jab or grab the retaliation. Of course, falcons approach isnt GOOD, and the key to playing falcon is baiting with his speed (and though baits are player specific, ganondorf cant bait when he double jumps because his moves lag and hes slow in the air, and falcon has better options for this than many top tiers as well).

His defensive options arent great, depends what you mean by that. Jab is a great defensive tool, leads to a bunch of stuff, etc. His up air has massive range on all sides really, and its a very nice tool to whack shields adn back off.

His OOS sucks ill give you that, but i mained yoshi for a year and a half (now i main wolf, 2nd falcon) so anythign is a blessing xD

Airspeed is mostly for punishing, quick mobility around the stage, etc. Just because he doesnt have huge air control doesnt mean this isnt a massive bonus. If he had meta knights air speed hed be definately the worst character.

Saying that an opponent needs to make a sizable mistake is simply not true, with any character, except at the very highest level of play, in which this applies for many characters

I don't believe that a fast falled Uair, Nair, or bair are particularly safe against the most of the characters. Like you said falcon relies on baiting and using his speed against his opponents. And he definitely does this better than G-dorf but he doesn't do this well enough to really help. He can't do it as well as Sonic for instance who has a lot of mixups and has low commitment on quite a few moves.

And jab and Uair are good but they're really not enough enough for a solid defense game considering his OOS options.

Edit:

I like Ivy a lot. But Mario is WAY better than her.

No she's probably not better than Mario. I was wrong on that one. Thinking about Ivy as a solo character that claim really doesn't hold up. I think Ivy has a ton of undiscovered potential being the least used part of a character that's not used that much... So maybe one day she will be better than Mario. But as of now she's not.

I'm not sure I'd say Mario is way better though.

 

[zeldspazz]

Edit: nvm didnt read carefully xD

Why is solo Sheik so low on your list Calibur

 

[Deleted member]

Back air is safe on block against most characters.
Fast falled up air is not safe against snake, but against many characters it is.
Neutral air would be mixed up with air dodges and up bs, but the payoff for a fast falled neutral air is pretty big, as the first hit of neutral air legit combos into up b

I didnt talk about falcons ground approaches, his running grab is pretty great even though his grab range is mediocre(his shield grab isnt really good), he can hop around bait an aerial and dash attack as a pseudo approach, etc.

lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

Maybe I'm not expressing this right.

Yes I am going to have to use each Pokemon over the course of a match. But the player can control how much time they spend using each Pokemon. At the highest level of play Squirtle is being used far more than Ivysaur is. So why should Ivysaur and Squirtle have the same amount of weight in Pokemon Trainer's tier placement?

Because they are conjoined.
You MUST go through ivy to get to squirtle.
you MUST go though charizard to get to ivy.
It isn't as if there is an option, you must eventually switch and as such, Ivysaur weighs down Charizard and squirtle, because there is no choice whom you can switch to nor when.

You can switch earlier, but not switch anytime you please like Zelda and Sheik.

 

[Tien2500]

Back air is safe on block against most characters.
Fast falled up air is not safe against snake, but against many characters it is.
Neutral air would be mixed up with air dodges and up bs, but the payoff for a fast falled neutral air is pretty big, as the first hit of neutral air legit combos into up b

I didnt talk about falcons ground approaches, his running grab is pretty great even though his grab range is mediocre(his shield grab isnt really good), he can hop around bait an aerial and dash attack as a pseudo approach, etc.

lol

I've watched a lot of videos of Rebaz (who is amazing) and at least 90% of the time he approaches with Bair which leads me to believe that FF Uair or Nair are not really good options. Falcon has no good ground approach options. Lol. Few characters do. He doesn't have anything good to poke with. Dash grabbing is somewhat better for him than others due to his speed but still is pretty meh and Falcon doesn't really have many safe pokes. Dtilt is ok I guess but it doesn't really cut it.

And whats more concerning is his killing potential. Again judging by the videos most of the times Falcon actually scores a KO its via a gimp and an opponents mistake. He doesn't have any really good setups for his KOs and the moves themselves are a bit slow. And we've already established his defensive game is meh.

Falcon has some good attributes but not enough to move him beyond the bottom 3 or *maybe* 4 unless his game takes a huge leap.

 

[Tien2500]

, Ivysaur weighs down Charizard and squirtle, because there is no choice whom you can switch to nor when.

You can switch earlier, but not switch anytime you please like Zelda and Sheik.

There is no choice of whom but there is definitely a choice of when. Like you will most likely be switching to Ivy towards the end of a stock and switching away at the earliest convenience (to oversimplify things).

Two simple questions.

1. Is a PT main playing as best as they can spending 1/3 of their time as Ivysaur?
2. If not why should she account for 1/3 of the placement?

I'm not saying you should ignore Ivy but if Squirtle is going to be used more he should count more.

 

[Deleted member]

Rebaz is not amazing...
Nor does he have new videos

 

[Tien2500]

Rebaz is not amazing...
Nor does he have new videos

Seemed really good to me. Maybe I'm just easily impressed by Falcons due to low expectations? At any rate he had the best/most recent non ditto/non ganon matches I could find when I was doing research. If you know of any better examples of Falcon players let me know and I'll check them out.

 

[Cheeseonastick]

Captain Falcon is the only Falcon match-up that matters anyways.

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Lionman666
Here you go.
Lionman is good.
And i played against some of his competition when i went to europe so i know they are pretty good ^_^
At least some

 

[4nace]

Dudeeeee... Lion's videos are amazing. Why aren't the falcon boards clamoring about him right now. He plays so well against good high tiers.

Also is that FF neutral air to Up B true? Does it work on most characters?

And yea, FF his Bair has never let me down haha. It's amazing how quickly falcon can react after it. I usually go with pivot jab to grab, but you have so many options if you hit the back of them. Also fast falling in general is amazing with falcon.

Also, I love Cfalc. I'm a Sonic main, but whenever I play nubs I use Falcon because he's just awesome.

 

[Tien2500]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Lionman666
Here you go.
Lionman is good.
And i played against some of his competition when i went to europe so i know they are pretty good ^_^
At least some

I checked out a few. I'll check out a few more tomorrow I guess. From what I've seen I think Rebaz is better although Lion seems to make better use of the Uair at least. Of the recent videos he has up it just looks like he's just outclassing his opponents. The Wario he's playing gets grabbed so many times its ridiculous and the Marth Fsmashes every two seconds. Lol.

At any rate what I've seen so far from him doesn't change my opinion on Falcon.

 

[DMG]

That Wario was kinda bad. Go count how many times he airdodged. If it isn't 0, it's close to it lol. Hell, the Falcon air released him onto the Smashville platform and instead of shielding or jumping away or even spotdodging, he does an Usmash after he lands and gets Kneed anyways.

 

[Metro Knight]

Dude thank you, Those matches have been spammed and everyones like samus ***** link but no one even takes into consideration i beat him when it really mattered. I was putting on a show for the mm because it was live streamed and recorded but in tournament I didnt blindly approach and played way smarter. Which is why I 2-0'd him.

Oh, I just saw the MM. That is cool.

 

[Matador]

Yeah...that Wario was way too grounded...The Falcon's pretty epic though.

 

[Metro Knight]

Lion has a pretty epic Falcon. I think the Falcon in our region might be better, but that dude is pretty epic.

 

[adumbrodeus]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Lionman666
Here you go.
Lionman is good.
And i played against some of his competition when i went to europe so i know they are pretty good ^_^
At least some

I died inside a little when you said that.



Honestly. I look at the people he has videos of, and I see an amazingly talented Falcon barely beating scrubs most of the time. The wario was especially obvious, but nobody really used their characters well, and the marth especially made my eyes bleed (I couldn't watch the entire vid).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dude thank you, Those matches have been spammed and everyones like samus ***** link but no one even takes into consideration i beat him when it really mattered. I was putting on a show for the mm because it was live streamed and recorded but in tournament I didnt blindly approach and played way smarter. Which is why I 2-0'd him.

Your welcome.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

He's fast but what does that do for you?

Better mind games, better edge-guarding, more off-stage time, easier time tech-chasing, easier to approach, yeah, those are it.

 

[Tien2500]

That was taken 100% in context.............

 

[Chuee]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Lionman666
Here you go.
Lionman is good.
And i played against some of his competition when i went to europe so i know they are pretty good ^_^
At least some

That wario sucked.

 

[Deleted member]

I know i linked the whole channel.

Yes the wario wasnt good, so watch vs Neji's diddy, hes one of the top ranked in spain, or vs marcbri. I just linked the channel cuz i was too lazy to find specific videos vs good players xD
Raw is pretty good, and a few months ago he beat marcbri, the best falco in europe and #1 in spain.

But Im not trying to fanboy or anything lionman isnt like the best falcon can be, nor is he a godly player, he just has the best recent footage that show what falcon should be doing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

There is no choice of whom but there is definitely a choice of when. Like you will most likely be switching to Ivy towards the end of a stock and switching away at the earliest convenience (to oversimplify things).

Two simple questions.

1. Is a PT main playing as best as they can spending 1/3 of their time as Ivysaur?
2. If not why should she account for 1/3 of the placement?

I'm not saying you should ignore Ivy but if Squirtle is going to be used more he should count more.

You're not understanding, it isnt that Ivy is getting equal weight, its that she is assumed to be a part of PT.
SO if the PT is playing a MK, Ivysaur shall hardly see any play because squirtle and charizard deal with im better. It is assumed that the three pokemon will be used to as well as humanly possible.

Usage has nothing to do with it.
The pokemon aren't being weighed equally, it is that they are being weighed according to their contribution towards PT.

However, because Ivysaur is so bad and you have no choice but to use Ivysaur, it pulls down PT in spite of Squirtles good abilities.

So a matchup that would potentially be in PT's favor is now no longer because she is bad.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Whoever says Samus ***** Link is silly.
I don't feel like looking for Legan's post for which videos he's talking about, but if someone could link me so I could justify my claim with evidence, that'd be spectacular.

 

[Kinzer]

Edit: nvm didnt read carefully xD

Why is solo Sheik so low on your list Calibur

If there's anything I may agree with Calibur on, it's that he is right to put Sheik low.

I'm no going to fall for any BS, what has Sheik done?

Or let me put it this way. What has Sheik done In-Tourney?

Oh~~, I can already hear the cries of people saying how Sheik has no representation, and how I'll probably be torched for this entire post, but whatever, I'm tired of reading empty bandwagoning (is that a word?).

At least when Sonic was in the same situation around version 1.0 and 2.0, he had proof that he wasn't where he was at the time (the and 7th worst character respectively). Metagame development is great and all, but unless I see that @#$% in action, I'm not going for theorycrafting, I'm going for practical applications.

 

[Deleted member]

Sheik placed 17th at genesis, only using MK for one round, with someone who doesnt like brawl at all.
There i said it.

 

[Gindler]

Sheik placed 17th at genesis, only using MK for one round, with someone who doesnt like brawl at all.
There i said it.

I've noticed that people that say they don't like brawl and for some reason still play it actually do like it they just refuse to admit it. I don't like TMNT smash up, so guess what I do, I DON'T play it.

 

[Deleted member]

Armada doesnt play it though.
I was told he just plays it for lolz.

 

[Delta-cod]

Just because someone doesn't like the game doesn't mean they can't be good at it.

Armada is a top player in Melee if I'm not mistaken. While the games aren't exactly the same, I'm positive good basic play carries over, meaning Armada isn't just some random nobody.

If it WERE a random nobody, then it'd be MUCH more impressive.