The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Tien2500]

I think ZSS is definitely better than G&W. I'm not sure if I'd agree on 45:55 for ZSS/MK but ZSS definitely does better than G&W. She definitely does better than G&W against Snake so that's a rather big advantage. And Marth I believe is pretty bad for G&W.

What G&W has going for him is that quite a few characters are unequipped to deal with him in the mid/lower tiers. But while G&W has better matchups towards the bottom ZSS is better towards the top which is more important.

 

[Luigi player]

According to all of Ankoku's Character Rankings thread's results so far...

1) MK (1.18)
2) Snake (1.82)
3) DDD (4.27)
4) Falco (5.55)
5) Wario (5.64)
6) Marth (6.18)
7) Diddy (7.91)
8) G&W (8.36)
9) ROB (9.91)
10) ICs (10.91)
11) Olimar (11.18)
12) Lucario (12.00)
13) Kirby (12.72)
14) Pikachu (14.09)
15) DK (14.81)
16) ZSS (16.18)
17) Wolf (17.81)
18) Pit (18.64)
19) Peach (18.72)
20) TL (19.09)
21) Sonic (21.18)
22) Fox (21.63)
23) Luigi (22.18)
24) PT (22.55)
25) Zelda/Sheik (24.81)
26) Ike (25.18)
27) Ness (25.81)
28) Lucas (27.82)
29) Yoshi (29.27)
30) Bowser (29.63)
31) Samus (30.00)
32) Mario (30.45)
33) Link (30.64)
34) Jigglypuff (31.72)
35) C. Falcon (33.18)
36) Ganondorf (33.90)

What would you argue against these placements? Would it make a good tier list, or a bad one? And how would you guys classify all the tiers (who's in S, A, B, C, D...)?

*I know how tourney results don't mean how good or bad a character might be, due to things like the popularity of a bad matchup, or lack of representation... But it still reflects the overall placing of the characters, which is necessary data in the makings of a tierlist... Yes, I know some characters might look pretty ugly there, but it's just an average of ALL the tourney data, so bear with me here.

The problem with this list is that it doesn't list how the metagame is currently. It just lists how the metagame was from the beginning until now. It doesn't really has to mean anything.


And I agree with ZSS being better than GaW.
I'd put GaW to C tier. He really isn't good. The only reason why I wouldn't put him in D tier is UTD Zac.

 

[bigman40]

GW will not be dropping that far due to his inherent strengths.

 

[Kewkky]

The problem with this list is that it doesn't list how the metagame is currently. It just lists how the metagame was from the beginning until now. It doesn't really has to mean anything.

While it is true that the metagame is always changing and that the placings are still (and will always remain) fluctuating, after enough time and enough data has been taken, we can make a pretty decent tierlist by averaging out each characters' performance in tourneys... It would show us which are the ones dominating the scene, and who are the ones who contribute nothing... Which is what tourney results are supposed to show.

Since large tourneys count more than smaller tourneys, we don't have to fear much about overcentralization at levels of play below tops; top 8 placers will remain top 8 placers, and the same players (save any random pros that might appear) will still be placing high in the top 8, which would point to top levels of play... Even if at the start of Brawl's life the metagame was confusing and completely different than it is now, it's eventually going to be fixed by the ever-fluctuating flow of tourney results: some characters might fluctuate between #10 and #15 positions, but will never reach #5 or #20, for example, meaning that in due time their positions' range will become apparent... Like Kirby for example: he keeps fluctuating at an average of #12 and #13 spots with each update of tourney results, from the start of Brawl's life until today's date, with no real change at all.

So, it could still be viewed as yet another opinionated tier list, comparble to the SBR's tierlist.

I'd put GaW to C tier. He really isn't good. The only reason why I wouldn't put him in D tier is UTD Zac.

You, sir, are CRAZY.

 

[Conti]

lol randomm thought :D
I wud def like to see Diddy moved to #3 on the next Tier list, Cuz he definately is worthy...
How so? 1 word... ADHD

 

[Nanaki]

GaW in D tier is pretty silly. The current D tier contains Bowser, Zelda, Ike, and PT.

GaW is light years ahead of all of them, even if he has been pretty well figured out.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I can't see GaW going below B tier.

 

[mountain_tiger]

GaW in D tier is pretty silly. The current D tier contains Bowser, Zelda, Ike, and PT.

GaW is light years ahead of all of them, even if he has been pretty well figured out.

This x 9001.

Just because his tools are predictable doesn't mean they're bad; they're still effective, even if you know what he's going to do. Kirby is a lot like that too, actually. When fighting against him, you can expect him to use Bair a ton, but because Bair is just THAT good, he can kinda get away with it.

He should definitely go down a bit, but he's still far better than C and D Tier. The lower end of A Tier seems about right for him IMO.

 

[Nefarious B]

Better than ROB, definitely. Better than Kirby, debatable, but I'd say she is. But better than Mr GaW? No way. And Olimar and Pikachu is easily better than her. #12 seems about right for her.

It's about matchups though.

Better than ROB, glad you agree because this is pretty blatant.

Better than Kirby? I don't really see how it's debatable. She just does better against the top tier, Kirby gets beat worse than she does by MK and Marth, and also has bad matchups against ZSS, GaW, Olimar, and Snake. Those are all matchups that she goes even with or wins.

Not to mention Kirby's IC matchup is on par with ZS's Falco matchup difficulty wise. I just don't see how you can look at those matchups and say that Kirby is better.

GaW is an interesting character to me, because no matter how overwhelming the matchup and tourney data supports that he should be lower, many people are still clinging to the idea that he should remain as high as he is.

Matchups wise, he loses to MK, Snake, Diddy, Marth, and ZSS. That alone should be enough to show you why he is a B tier character. He's good for what he does, but once a player learns the nuances of playing against GaW, they shouldn't be loosing if they are using one of the above characters, and unfortunately for GaW, those nuances aren't very difficult to figure out and abuse.

I agree that Pikachu is better than her, he has an all around more solid game plan, and some abusable mechanics that give him rediculous advantages in some ways.

Olimar is difficult to gauge as well, I personally feel he is slightly better than her though he definitely should be in the same area of the tier list, within a spot or two. He does have a pretty terrible MK matchup though which really hurts him, as well as some random bad matchups with Luigi (can't really understand this one), Peach, and ROB.

I already posted my list a few pages back so I'm not going to relist any of it, but suffice to say that ZS is definitely better than Kirby, GaW, and ROB, and her placement will hopefully reflect that in the next list. I don't know if she'll break 10, but hovering around that spot is definitely where she belongs.

 

[Luigi player]

GaW in D tier is pretty silly. The current D tier contains Bowser, Zelda, Ike, and PT.

GaW is light years ahead of all of them, even if he has been pretty well figured out.

Seems like D tier fits perfectly. I'd put PT and Bowser above him though.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

G&W doesn't lose to ZSS.
Lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

G&W is C-Tier in my book. Bowser isn't better imo but PT is.

 

[Nefarious B]

G&W doesn't lose to ZSS.
Lol.

k

Go watch some OBM vs Dazwa vids, that's probably the best example that we have for how this matchup goes because they are both top players for their respective characters and play each other enough to both know the matchup.

Feel free to back up your point with actual info instead of opinion by the way. SFP has made multiple posts in this thread about why ZSS beats GaW and there's never really any good argument to counter his points so I'd love to hear why you think differently.

 

[Kewkky]

Seems like D tier fits perfectly. I'd put PT and Bowser above him though.

You seem to know nothing about G&W. Is all you know learned from the forums? In-game G&W is better than in Super Theoryfighter Bros. He should either stay in A tier (dunno where), or drop to top of B... But he doesn't belong anywhere below that.

I, myself, feel ROB should drop. He's been clinging to A tier with nothing really to hold on to, except his recovery... Everything else, other characters can do better, or are on-par with him.

 

[Gindler]

lol randomm thought :D
I wud def like to see Diddy moved to #3 on the next Tier list, Cuz he definately is worthy...
How so? 1 word... ADHD

Diddy is probably that good. Would it be crazy of me to say snake is #1???

 

[Mr. Escalator]

...
Seriously?

OBM hasn't played G&W for ages. In case you didn't know, he uses Wario exclusively now, even in teams (I saw him just a week ago at a tournament going all out Wario). Hell, even if he still actually used G&W, no one single player represents G&W, just as much as no single ZSS shows how she should be played. UTD Zac could go beat up Snakeee several times and that wouldn't make me think we had the sudden 6:4 advantage.

In fact, the ZSS boards really didn't get any input from our boards when they discussed the matchup between the two, yet you guys have it listed in your favor (I assume). I think the G&W boards most recent feelings on the matchup are dead even, save myself, whereas I think it is 55:45 us.

Also, G&W is A tier material still. Ctier and Dtier are way off the mark. Btier is controversial, but it's at least reasonable to discuss.

edit: since you edited your post, I feel I need to add onto this. Your boards can post all you want without getting feedback from us. It doesn't mean you do have the advantage, in reality, though. SMFP can make all the posts they want, but without our knowledge of these posts, having them go without being refuted doesn't mean ****. Also, people in the G&W back room were laughing at the silly notion of 70:30 ZSS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Snake isn't #1. IMO he isn't #2. Diddy is.

When I post my lists I say Snake is #2 to avoid people whining at me about it. But I think Diddy is #2.

 

[lordvaati]

lol randomm thought :D
I wud def like to see Diddy moved to #3 on the next Tier list, Cuz he definately is worthy...
How so? 1 word... ADHD

rumor says that Diddy could be even #1. I'm totally ****ing serious.

Seems like D tier fits perfectly. I'd put PT and Bowser above him though.

That ain't Melee G&W.

 

[mountain_tiger]

k

Go watch some OBM vs Dazwa vids, that's probably the best example that we have for how this matchup goes because they are both top players for their respective characters and play each other enough to both know the matchup.

Feel free to back up your point with actual info instead of opinion by the way. SFP has made multiple posts in this thread about why ZSS beats GaW and there's never really any good argument to counter his points so I'd love to hear why you think differently.

I always thought that SFP was a girl. Wrong again...

Though you're right. ZSS beats G&W pretty solidly overall. IIRC, something like 60:40 her favour, though SFP claims it's as much as 70:30 her favour.

However, if there's ANYONE who should be dropping from A Tier to C Tier, it's definitely ROB.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Some of you guys are really pathetic. Calling other people's opinion false for reasons that aren't legit and then act like you know everything is really, really lame and sadly typical for this community - no wonder the metagame is stale.

1.) G&W isn't a good character. He loses to Snake, MK, Diddy, Marth, Falco, Zamus and Olimar. Some people would also argue ICs and D3. He really doesn't beat most characters ... match-up's that are assumed to be 6/4 in G&Ws favour are actually even (spacies, Pikachu, Lucario, ...)

2.) Luigiplayer knows more about this game and its characters than most of the people here. In fact I'D say he knows more than everybody else except the occasional super-pro randomly popping up.

3.) People who have their own opinions and back them up are usually more trustworthy than people using dummy argumeents like most people here do. "G&W has many inherent strenghts". Oh really? I'd like to know them and I can EASILY come up with just as many flaws.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

...
Seriously?

OBM hasn't played G&W for ages. In case you didn't know, he uses Wario exclusively now, even in teams (I saw him just a week ago at a tournament going all out Wario). Hell, even if he still actually used G&W, no one single player represents G&W, just as much as no single ZSS shows how she should be played. UTD Zac could go beat up Snakeee several times and that wouldn't make me think we had the sudden 6:4 advantage.

In fact, the ZSS boards really didn't get any input from our boards when they discussed the matchup between the two, yet you guys have it listed in your favor (I assume). I think the G&W boards most recent feelings on the matchup are dead even, save myself, whereas I think it is 55:45 us.

Also, G&W is A tier material still. Ctier and Dtier are way off the mark. Btier is controversial, but it's at least reasonable to discuss.

edit: since you edited your post, I feel I need to add onto this. Your boards can post all you want without getting feedback from us. It doesn't mean you do have the advantage, in reality, though. SMFP can make all the posts they want, but without our knowledge of these posts, having them go without being refuted doesn't mean ****. Also, people in the G&W back room were laughing at the silly notion of 70:30 ZSS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNB1EUJg1-w

also lol, last i checked the gaw boards still said something like "ZSS has a tether recovery and you can easily gimp her." I lol'd. Like half the data on her you guys have in your match-up thread is terrible or just wrong.

 

[Kewkky]

Snake isn't #1. IMO he isn't #2. Diddy is.

When I post my lists I say Snake is #2 to avoid people whining at me about it. But I think Diddy is #2.

You shouldn't be influenced by other people's criticism on your opinions. Post your thoughts as they are, that way we have a clear idea as to how YOU view the metagame... That way, we can actually say stuff in accordance to your whole opinions.


@ Gheb_01: MUs aren't precise, not at all. The characters who are argued to have GREAT MUs, is because they voice their opinions louder than the opponents, and theorize better... Which is a very bad thing happening in the Kirby MU discussions: all Kirby mains underrate Kirby greatly, and the only MU that I've agreed on recently has been the Yoshi:Kirby MU, which I myself was the only Kirby main talking (no one said ANYTHING, I was literally the only mainer talking).

And I consider myself knowledgeable to a degree on many of the games' most-discussed topics. I know how good G&W can be, and he does NOT belong anywhere near low C tier, MUCH less D tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If it were up to me there'd really only be two tiers: Characters worth playing, and characters not worth playing. To me, anyone below Peach is not worth playing competitively unless you just like the character a lot. And honestly, Peach probably isn't worth playing either.

Anyway though, if your character (say GAW) owns the **** out of a bunch of characters that are broken/bad/not worth playing, that doesn't matter. ZSS for instance has a lot of even matchups in low and bottom tier. But it doesn't matter, because those characters are rare, not worth playing, and never show up because any MK or Snake or anyone else would eat them alive.

I don't care if a character owns the crap out of a bunch of low tiers, if they lose to the other characters worth playing then they aren't good.

 

[Kewkky]

If it were up to me there'd really only be two tiers: Characters worth playing, and characters not worth playing. To me, anyone below Peach is not worth playing competitively unless you just like the character a lot. And honestly, Peach probably isn't worth playing either.

I say Peach is definitely worth playing... But I'm extremely biased here, since one of our best players is (or was?) a Peach mainer.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Some of you guys are really pathetic. Calling other people's opinion false for reasons that aren't legit and then act like you know everything is really, really lame and sadly typical for this community - no wonder the metagame is stale.

Funny. You make similar claims and act in the same manor yourself. G&W doesn't have the advantage on ANY space animal? Yeah, whatever.

1.) G&W isn't a good character. He loses to Snake, MK, Diddy, Marth, Falco, Zamus and Olimar. Some people would also argue ICs and D3. He really doesn't beat most characters ... match-up's that are assumed to be 6/4 in G&Ws favour are actually even (spacies, Pikachu, Lucario, ...)

G&W loses to Snake, MK, Marth, and arguably Diddy by ONLY 6:4. That isn't a lot by any stretch of the imagination. He doesn't lose to ZSS, despite it being the general consensus outside of our boards for whatever reason. Olimar and Toon Link are both near even matchups, but could very well go in their favor 5 points. Now explain to me; why does this make him a bad character? 4 disadvantages, the rest being near even doesn't make for a bad character when he goes even to advantageous with the rest of the cast.

People can argue, and that's good, but G&W beats D3, ICs, Lucario, and Pikachu. The only Spacie that he beats 6:4 is likely Fox. Wolf is dead even, and Falco is beat 55:45, which isnt a large margin. Regardless, he still has the edge over 2 of the three spacies.

3.) People who have their own opinions and back them up are usually more trustworthy than people using dummy argumeents like most people here do. "G&W has many inherenty strenghts". Oh really? I'd like to know them and I can EASILY come up with just as many flaws.

I'm not a frequent poster in this thread, but this really seems to be pointed at me in some fashion. What makes you think I don't form my own opinions? In fact, my opinions on G&W as a whole are well founded, and I have made a semi-recent thread for discussion on our boards to argue against people who thinks G&W is a poor character. I backed up my points, and I got really few contesting points to them, those primarily being unfounded, unsupported opinions of "Whatever you say, G&W sucks lololol".

If you have such a strong opinion that G&W is a bad character, bump up that thread and debate with me. I don't have the time or patience necessary to argue with multiple people on multiple issues about G&W as this thread moves itself on.

also lol, last i checked the gaw boards still said something like "ZSS has a tether recovery and you can easily gimp her." I lol'd. Like half the data on her you guys have in your match-up thread is terrible or just wrong.

Cute. OBM's matchup guide is constantly getting looked over in matchup exports. ZSS hasn't got one yet, so the information through that is old. However, I'm positive yours is no better. I wouldn't be surprised if you had **** like "G&W is predictable lol turtle is easily punishable now". I honestly would not be surprised.

Listen, if you guys actually want to hammer out an accurate matchup ratio, you actually have to let the G&W boards know. It's really cute to make fun of old matchup discussion, and then go right ahead talking amongst just your boards and not inviting the other side of the equation to join you. That is just as laughable as old discussion.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS boards haven't "officially" discussed GaW recently either. So for lack of a better phrase:

You started it, kid.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Some of you guys are really pathetic. Calling other people's opinion false for reasons that aren't legit and then act like you know everything is really, really lame and sadly typical for this community - no wonder the metagame is stale.

You act the same way yourself.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Started it? The general consensus of ZSS having the advantage started it.

I don't even get where that notion came from, as there hasn't been real discussion on the matter.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Started it? The general consensus of ZSS having the advantage started it.

I don't even get where that notion came from, as there hasn't been real discussion on the matter.

She does have the advantage. The only people who don't seem to think so are a few tards in the GAW backroom who probably:

1. Have never played a good ZSS, and
2. For some reason, think I care that they are making fun of me (btw, I found out pretty fast and didn't care when I found out either). Laugh away! I'm used to it.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Started it? The general consensus of ZSS having the advantage started it.

I don't even get where that notion came from, as there hasn't been real discussion on the matter.

Explain why you think ZSS doesn't have the advantage.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

She doesn't have the advantage. The only people who don't seem to think so are the NUMEROUS tards on the ZSS boards and the ones in general public.

oh BURN

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

She doesn't have the advantage. The only people who don't seem to think so are the NUMEROUS tards on the ZSS boards and the ones in general public.

oh BURN

Like four people post on the ZSS boards and none of them are tards but me. Try again.

Edit: and darkwater.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

G&W loses to Snake, MK, Marth, and arguably Diddy by ONLY 6:4.

Oh really? Then were do statements like "only bad MKs lose to G&W" (NoJ), "ftilt is all that MK needs to **** G&W" (UTD Zac) and "MK ***** G&W lol" (M2K) come from? That doesn't sound like 6/4 at all more like 65/35 or 7/3.

And that's just MK don't get me started on Snake.

That isn't a lot by any stretch of the imagination. He doesn't lose to ZSS, despite it being the general consensus outside of our boards for whatever reason. Olimar and Toon Link are both near even matchups, but could very well go in their favor 5 points.

Again you say those things wihout backing it up and come out of nowhere. Just because you're the only G&W who doesn't have troubles with Olimar doesn't mean he doesn't win. Most people agree that it's 55/45 Olimar. I never mentioned TL btw idk why you mention him.

Now explain to me; why does this make him a bad character? 4 disadvantages, the rest being near even doesn't make for a bad character when he goes even to advantageous with the rest of the cast.

4 bad match-up from your point of view.

When I ask people, who are objective, have experience and are known to be good players I hear different things. When I look at the people who play G&W I see Vex calling him a "bad character", I see OBM, NoJ, DMG, Vex and Hylian quitting him ... but yeah let's pretend he's good and all.

People can argue, and that's good, but G&W beats D3, ICs, Lucario, and Pikachu.

And you base that on what? Omg G&W got teh turtle it's 7/3 lololololo... we're not in 08 anymore there's a reason people quit G&W because he's bad and you can't beat good characters with him.

You say he beats D3...but who agrees? Maybe A2Z (lolololololololol) but Atomsk, Vex, UTD, Hylian etc see things differently. The only G&W player who has good Lucario experience is UTD Zac and guess what he thinks it's even. No coincidence...

The only Spacie that he beats 6:4 is likely Fox. Wolf is dead even, and Falco is beat 55:45, which isnt a large margin. Regardless, he still has the edge over 2 of the three spacies.

Again you come out of nowhere with that. Falco never had the disadvantage and his tourney record vs G&W is GREATLY in Falco's favour. You say he beats him 55/45 even though everythng points towards a falco advantage

 

[Kewkky]

Like four people post on the ZSS boards and none of them are tards but me. Try again.

Edit: and darkwater.

Everytime I look over the ZSS boards, I just leave them alone since they seem like they have everything under control... Plus, I'm more familiar with Kirby's technicalities and have spent more time with him than I have with the ZSS boards. So, I wouldn't know anything about how people discuss their MUs there... BUT! In MY honest opinion, from a 3rd person point of view (as well as 1st person since I'm a ZSS main), G&W should be even with her.





... And when DeliciousCake still posted around, I had a small issue with his way of addressing others.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Well, just to clarify before people get upset, my post was a parody of SFP's until they edited it. Nothing against the ZSS boards <3

Anyway, I think I responded harshly about ZSS mainly because I was just finishing up a reply to Gheb. He's a joke, so I think some of my feelings regarding his post projected themselves into my reply to you guys.

G&W and ZSS are both pretty obscure characters, who don't enjoy much representation. I think a better course of action is to get a matchup discussion of the two up sometime and bring it to there, opposed to continuing it here.

edit:

Not even going to reply to Gheb here. All he does is meatride, use other people's thoughts on matchups selectively when it seems to make his point better, all the while thinking he is right about everything. Whatever brah.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Hey guys. Any chance of you lot giving justified reasons for ZSS having or not having the advantage, instead of posting inane comments that get us nowhere?

 

[Nefarious B]

Explain why you think ZSS doesn't have the advantage.

Please do. You've distracted this thread enough that everyone's waiting for you to come out and tell us what makes your matchup with ZS even, so by all means get it over with so we can tell you why you're wrong.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Because she handles him pretty well in the air (beats him, really) and doesn't really fall victim to his gimping game because down-b kick trades hits with shuttle loop and sends him away from the stage and her toward it; while it's fair to say in a fight offstage, MK'd win, she never has to be offstage longer than she wants to be so it's not a big deal.

She's difficult for him to combo, difficult for him to get inside (not with side-b, just her aerial game) and does a decent job of baiting him into her superior aerials (and the are superior). Uair>anything MK has really.

Wait what?
how?
MK's aerials overall are superior to ZSS in that they have greater range in terms of disjoint to nondisjoint.
Especially since Uair does lose out to a spaced out Fair if I recall correctly.

Can you explain as to how the Uair is superior? Or any of the other aerials in greater detail?
Since MK's range on his aerials is greater slightly and I dont recall ZSS beating out Marth aerially either.

She must get into range and MK can simply stick out his sword and space her because she cant stick herself out without being outprioritized, and considering how quickly his attacks end its not as if he cant use them rapidly.

Edge guarding wise its still free damage for him to land because unless she downB's in front of him to use the invincibility frames, he can deal with pretty much everything else. Even once ZSS has grabbed the ledge he still does a good job pressuring her.

 

[Kewkky]

Please do. You've distracted this thread enough that everyone's waiting for you to come out and tell us what makes your matchup with ZS even, so by all means get it over with so we can tell you why you're wrong.

Start the G&W MU Discussion in the ZSS boards and invite the G&W's. He's going to be there, most probably than not.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I'm one of the only active G&W users on our boards, so yes, I will be there.