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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

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Tien2500

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The function projectiles share:
Able to be reflected/absorbed

Disjoints:
Unable to be reflected/absorbed. Not attached to character hurtbox

Standard:
Unable to be reflected/absorbed, attached to character hurtbox.

If you are separating on function otherwise, then you would have to determine WHAT function.

ZSS' B stuns, so does D-smash. Would that make them equals in function?
So would that cause the B move to NOT be a projectile, or the Dsmash to be a projectile?
Why would you make that decision (if you chose one)
I don't feel that being able to reflected makes the moves similar enough to call them both projectiles. Since well less than half the cast can reliably reflect things I don't think this is an important feature of the moves.

Like I said I think that B is a projectile because it moves a significant distance from the user. So I would call that a projectile whereas I would not call Dsmash a projectile.

If you want to group them together you can also put them into the group "moves that stun". So Down Smash is a disjointed move that stuns and B is a projectile that stuns.

Edit: Cause meese and boxen would sound stupid.
 

SuSa

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It doesn't matter how large of the cast it effects. It holds true when given. <_< (PS: Wear a Franklin Badge. Just because it doesn't apply to the metagame, doesn't mean it can't effect the entire cast)

Actually, wearing a Franklin Badge could easily dictate if it's a disjoint or projectile. <_< Then you'd just have to test against Ness/Lucas PSI Magnet and/or G&W's bucket to see if it can be absorbed.

Ok.

That'd be further specific into the group of "projectiles that stun"

I don't care if it sounds STUPID. The fear of long words is a HUGE word. To me, that's stupid.
 

SuSa

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Because it's a projectile. Just like Lucario's force palm.

You know the most epic thing however?

Snake's C4+Mines would be considered disjoints.

Try to wrap your head around THAT. :x (AFAIK, neither can be reflected or absorbed)

EDIT:
DDD's side-B would also be considered a disjoint. As they are treated like Nana in the fact they are an extension. (Also, the Waddle Doo attack would be considered a projectile)

So DDD has a disjoint that is a projectile.

I see where these definitions are able to fail.

EDIT2:
PS: I'm arguing for your side now btw. I just like to argue over stupid ****. <_< So I'm helping you out vs me.
 

Tien2500

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Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia is not stupid. It is wonderfully ironic.

And I get that these moves can be reflected and that it is easy to test that. I'm arguing that the ability to be reflected isn't all that important and therefore shouldn't be the basis by which we classify things.

Edit:

You know the most epic thing however?

Snake's C4+Mines would be considered disjoints.

Try to wrap your head around THAT. :x (AFAIK, neither can be reflected or absorbed)
And I think that this shows exactly why that classification system is flawed.
 

Kitamerby

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Snake's usmash is reflected, but it's trajectory doesn't really change. Just who's control it's under. Test this by having Falco use a reflector on it, then let it fall on Snake. :x Snake gets hit.

Olimar's fsmash cannot be reflected nor absorbed. It is a disjoint by definition.
Not really. It's neither a disjoint, nor is it a projectile, it seems. Olimar's moves are extremely special in all sense of the word. In PSA, its data is extremely similar to that of a projectile rather than a physical attack, and like most projectiles, it doesn't give you the data for the knockback/bones/etc. in the sub-actions for the move. This means that it is not a disjoint, but in fact is more like a projectile. However, Pikmin never behave like regular projectiles. They seem to behave more like you're literally throwing a character at people, which means they may not be considered "projectiles" by the game's standards other than the fact that they fly through the air. They can't be reflected or absorbed either.

What does this mean?

It means Olimar is ****ing gay. It also means his pikmin aren't disjoints either. They're either some sort of either super special projectile, or he's literally throwing miniature characters around like ragdolls.
Strictly by definition, Olimar's fsmash would be a projectile.
However the trait unique to projectiles in Smash would render it a disjoint.

So yes, you are correct on the context of the word.

(wait, can Olimar's fsmash be reflected?... I don't think so O_o but I COULD be wrong.....)

Disjoint:
Attack is not tied to a character bone. (Strictly, any hitbox that does not directly overlap a hitbox is disjointed and considered a disjoint. However this term is generally used if it's distinctively seperated, or the character itself does not share the hitbox. EG: Olimar's moveset (save nair and tilts+jab), most (if not all) sword attacks.

Projectile:
An attack which can be reflected or absorbed. (This is unique to all projectiles, including items)

The 3rd type would generally be called a "standard" attack. Basically, it covers any attack that does not fall under the other two.
I hate to say you're wrong, but... you're kinda wrong. So far, I think there are 5 kinds of attacks, but they're not that. There're regular collision bubbles, which are usually connected and associated with a bone, special collision bubbles, which all have their own unique properties and physics, (like being unable to reverse the knee), projectiles, and items. Not sure where to classify pikmin, but I think they may be either super special projectiles, or super secret mini-characters that literally have their own data, which I think may actually be the case. I won't know until I look at the actual game data instead of the meowmix files I got. :<

Oh, I almost forgot grabs. That's the 5th kind.

Also, projectiles can't necessarily be absorbed or reflected all the time. There are projectiles which can't be reflected, and there are projectiles that cannot be absorbed. This leads me to the conclusion that there CAN be projectiles that cannot be reflected nor absorbed....I think. Honestly, I have no freaking clue how reflectors work (yet). I have a feeling it has to do with the flags for the most part, though. I'm still new to PSA. :<

Also, most disjoints ARE connected to bones, but those bones are not always hurtboxes, nor are they even obligated to be actually a part of the character itself. Marth's sword actually is comprised of four bones! And for Meta Knight, the reason he has transcendent priority, as well as for Lucario and some other characters with similar moves... is because they have a bone that's actually not connected to the body, but rather the pivot point, and they instead use the offset feature on moves to an extreme, putting them where the sword should be, and then "pasting" the graphic effect over it as if the character was actually slashing. It's funny.

ZSS Dsmash is actually another odd case, but it's much easier to explain than Pikmin. The reason it can be absorbed and doesn't have hitlag? It's a special collision bubble. That's all you need to know. It's not a normal move. It's special. It can do these things because it can, not because it's a projectile. In fact, it gives you all the data right there in the sub-actions! All the bone data, the hitbox, the damage, the knockback, it's all there, which a normal projectile or item does NOT do! It's pretty much exactly the same as Falcon's Knee smash in that it's just a unique move that has its own physics because it's a special collision bubble, not a projectile.

Olimar's sideB can't be reflected or absorbed. ZSS's dsmash can't be reflected but can be absorbed. Snake's grenades can be reflected but can't be absorbed. Falco's laser can be reflected and absorbed. Disjoints are hitboxes that don't overlap the hurtboxes, and projectiles are also bound to this definition...
You're wrong too. By the game's standards, disjoints and projectiles are worlds apart. Projectiles, and certain very odd special moves, like the Reflector, are all listed in the Specials part of PSA, rather than in the sub-actions, with the regular moves. Disjoints are almost always stated outright, as they are mapped to either a non-hurtbox bone like a sword, or the collision bubble is larger overall than the bone that it is mapped to. You're completely oversimplifying the situation.

Why are you guys arguing about the whole thing, anyway? It would be easier to just go with the terms already stated attacks should be, rather than just fight over how they should be called.
This is actually quite relevant. When considering "X character can force Y character to approach because he doesn't have a projectile," often an anal guy will come in and start ranting about how Water Gun or Fire Breath is a projectile, and it'll throw everything off topic. By classifying items as projectiles (which they're technically not), you completely throw off any sort of classification for general discussion purposes (such as SuSa's item thread being entirely devoted to telling us that character-produced items are good and giving us the same exact information we've known for nearly two years now instead of telling us about actual projectiles which we haven't completely debated to death by now.)

I will now define the difference between a projectile and an item for everyone's sake.

Items can be caught and/or picked up with A moves. Projectiles can't. The only exceptions to this are the transforming items which activate upon touch, the Sandbag, the soccer ball, and the Metal Box.


Long-range damaging projectiles is what I'm sure Tien has been trying to word this entire time. By the game's definition, Fire Breath, Force Palm, and FLUDD are all projectiles. (ZSS Dsmash is NOT a normal projectile by the game's standards.) However, none of these have any use whatsoever in attacking a foe at mid to long range to damage or force an approach safely from a distance. As such, they should not even be considered when talking about projectiles as a whole, since the main use for them is camping and long-range battles, while these moves are completely useless for this purpose. Thunder is also a projectile that can damage from long-range safely, so it fits this definition.


In short, a projectile by the game's standards should probably be defined as a non-throw attack whose data for damage/knockback/etc. does not appear in the Sub-Actions area for that character's attack. The only real flaw in this is that it includes Fox's shine, which certainly isn't a normal attack and is probably as much of a projectile as force palm, anyways. The reason for this is that projectiles have their own physics and speed normally, so they're never in the sub-actions area. ZSS dsmash is merely a fancy disjoint, and nothing more.
 

SuSa

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Here comes Kitamerby, using all his logic by definition of what the GAME treats a move as. Bringing up special collision bubbles and all that crap.

(Also IIRC if you cape Olimar's fsmash with Mario, the Pikmin will hurt Olimar. This would make Olimar's fsmash a projectile.)

Items are a mixture of things.
If you throw a home run bat, it's a projectile.
If you use it, it's a disjoint.

I shouldn't have used the term "bones", but rather "overlapping a hurtbox"

Also. Please list me a projectile that can neither be reflected NOR absorbed. :) /is waiting to here G&W's down-B :'(

EDIT:
And you didn't understand WHY I made my thread. Also not all character-made items are good. I'd argue against Peach's turnips to death. <_<

 

Tien2500

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Long-range damaging projectiles is what I'm sure Tien has been trying to word this entire time. By the game's definition, Fire Breath, Force Palm, and FLUDD are all projectiles. (ZSS Dsmash is NOT a normal projectile by the game's standards.) However, none of these have any use whatsoever in attacking a foe at mid to long range to damage or force an approach safely from a distance. As such, they should not even be considered when talking about projectiles as a whole, since the main use for them is camping and long-range battles, while these moves are completely useless for this purpose. Thunder is also a projectile that can damage from long-range safely, so it fits this definition.
I'm just going to quote this since it pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say.
 

Spelt

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So basically Olimar is throwing around 6 tiny colored Nana's?
that doesn't sound too threatening, really. :/
 
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I really proved you wrong BIG time! There's no denying that. LOL! By the way, you should do your research before you post something, it makes it more legit that way. Facts > personal opinion
You're an idiot.

EDIT: ZSS' d-smash is not a projectile nor can absorbs and Game and Watch's Bucket absorb "projectiles." They absorb energy-based attacks, which are mostly projectiles with the notable exceptions of Zero Suit Samus' d-smash and Pikachu's down-b (sure I'm forgetting a few).
 

Kewkky

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What happens if you dsmash someone wearing a Franklin Badge?

(You finally found the major loophole in my argument)
Why go around spouting something with a large loophole? :/
 

SuSa

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I forgot. <_< My bad.

Either way, they showed why my "absorbed" notion should be ignored, which I'm like 99% sure I used as a fallback.

Anyways, the gist of it:
I was really bored, thanks for the fun. Off to troll argue pointless elsewhere!
 
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I forgot. <_< My bad.

Either way, they showed why my "absorbed" notion should be ignored, which I'm like 99% sure I used as a fallback.

Anyways, the gist of it:
I was really bored, thanks for the fun. Off to troll argue pointless elsewhere!
Try "Oops, I was wrong." I do it all the time. :p

BTW guys I'm moving to NYC on the 12th from FL on the 12th. WOOT.

/blogpost
 

Kitamerby

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Here comes Kitamerby, using all his logic by definition of what the GAME treats a move as. Bringing up special collision bubbles and all that crap.

In all honesty, I sorta agree with Tien, and your logic was pretty sound, so I figured I'd see if it checked out in PSA. PSA is sort of cheating for theorycraft. >>

(Also IIRC if you cape Olimar's fsmash with Mario, the Pikmin will hurt Olimar. This would make Olimar's fsmash a projectile.) [/quote]
Seriously? Cape is weird. O-o

They still could be mini-ragdolls. I hear if you cape someone while they're rolling, they'll roll the other way or roll... backwards or something. I think one of these happened in Melee too. Cape is weird as hell.

Items are a mixture of things.
If you throw a home run bat, it's a projectile.
If you use it, it's a disjoint.
Well, yeah... but other than beam-swords, no non-throwing items can be spawned in competitive play, so there's no real reason to mention them ever other than when being over-analytical about things.


Also. Please list me a projectile that can neither be reflected NOR absorbed. :) /is waiting to here G&W's down-B :'(
DownB actually isn't a projectile. It's a regular offensive collision bubble, and if it hits a shield, he'll be pushed back like a regular attack. I think a good example of a true projectile that can be neither reflected nor absorbed would be FLUDD. I don't think any damaging projectiles in the actual version of brawl can be neither reflected nor absorbed, but I believe you can make them in PSA. And if not for that cape thing, I bet pikmin would've counted. Cape is so weird.

And you didn't understand WHY I made my thread. Also not all character-made items are good. I'd argue against Peach's turnips to death. <_<
Maybe I'll re-read it. I'm just slightly peeved Aura Sphere didn't make the list. Versatile as hell projectile without an honorable mention. :<
 

SuSa

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Try "Oops, I was wrong." I do it all the time. :p

BTW guys I'm moving to NYC on the 12th. WOOT.
Actually, try trolling. :laugh: (I have always considered Snake's C4 a projectile). Yet the definitions I made up (read Draco's wall) had the loophole of classifying them as a disjoint. That's the first hint at me talking out my *** just to see how people would react. :x I had put work into those definitions, but I knew there were loopholes... that nobody really pointed out for a long time. -_-

Because to be honest, I could give a **** how we classify moves. Beyond "Jab, Tilt, Smash, Aerial, Special, Glide Attack, Zair" I could really care less. :3

If you want an "oops I was wrong" I can find one of those, they do happen all the time. xD
 

Gindler

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Pikmin are weird.
AND dumb, hate olimar.

You're an idiot.

EDIT: ZSS' d-smash is not a projectile nor can absorbs and Game and Watch's Bucket absorb "projectiles." They absorb energy-based attacks, which are mostly projectiles with the notable exceptions of Zero Suit Samus' d-smash and Pikachu's down-b (sure I'm forgetting a few).
D3's and yoshi's stars can be absorbed, little fun fact.
 
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Actually, try trolling. :laugh:

Because to be honest, I could give a **** how we classify moves. Beyond "Jab, Tilt, Smash, Aerial, Special, Glide Attack, Zair" I could really care less. :3

If you want an "oops I was wrong" I can find one of those, they do happen all the time. xD
I know, I know, just messing with ya.

Cool. What part of the city?
Uh, it's complicated, but I don't know yet. Queens, or Brooklyn.
 

SuSa

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Maybe I'll re-read it. I'm just slightly peeved Aura Sphere didn't make the list. Versatile as hell projectile without an honorable mention. :<
I actually think you can reflect Mario's FLUDD.. it just... doesn't help you in any way. <_<

Also Lucario's AS truthfully isn't any better then Samus's beam shot. Also it's good against airborne opponents, I never said it never had uses.

Read the whole thread then you'll understand why I made it.

 

Kewkky

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Because to be honest, I could give a **** how we classify moves. Beyond "Jab, Tilt, Smash, Aerial, Special, Glide Attack, Zair" I could really care less. :3
This is probably why no one found the loophole earlier... What good would fixing technicalities do? Moves are still moves, classification shouldn't matter THAT much, as long as we know what works and what doesn't work.
 

Kitamerby

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I actually think you can reflect Mario's FLUDD.. it just... doesn't help you in any way. <_<

Also Lucario's AS truthfully isn't any better then Samus's beam shot. Also it's good against airborne opponents, I never said it never had uses.

Read the whole thread then you'll understand why I made it.

But... it's so big and flashy! Also it's infinitely more powerful than Samus's Charge Shot, being the only legit long-range kill move in high tiers... other than ROB's Gyro release, which probably totally counts as a projectile from my definition, as it pretty much has different properties when released than when thrown from what I gather.

Also, it beats out a ton of other projectiles. MythTrainerInfinity is currently running a project to figure out when Aura Sphere beats out what. A fun fact is that at 155%, the Mach Tornado itself falls to just an uncharged sphere. Samus's little beam gun can't do that, can she?

Also I just realized my definition is probably flawed in its own right.

I just remembered that brawl does have its own definition of a projectile. A projectile is anything that can be reflected by a franklin badge. I don't think FLUDD can be reflected, but it might. Can't check right now.

If it can, then I guess you were right. All projectiles can be reflected. I believe the only reason Force Palm is exempt from this is because it only stays out for a mere 1 frame, which means that it just doesn't stay out long enough to be reflected back, and it doesn't have a flight path anyways, so it's not like Lucario would ever be hit. I think though that if you slowed it down in PSA and then used a teams match to see if you could reflect it into a partner, we'd be able to figure out if that really is the case. As far as I remember, ForcePalm actually does react with a reflector normally, so that would probably work.
 

Tien2500

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But... it's so big and flashy!

Also I just realized my definition is probably flawed in its own right.

I just realized that brawl does have its own definitions of a projectile. A projectile is anything that can be reflected by a franklin badge. I don't think FLUDD can be reflected, but it might. Can't check right now.

...I just argued against myself. O_o
>_< But we were done with this...
 

CaliburChamp

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You're an idiot.

EDIT: ZSS' d-smash is not a projectile nor can absorbs and Game and Watch's Bucket absorb "projectiles." They absorb energy-based attacks, which are mostly projectiles with the notable exceptions of Zero Suit Samus' d-smash and Pikachu's down-b (sure I'm forgetting a few).
Your the idiot. ZSS down-smash IS a projectile. It heal's Ness and Lucas. This is what Nick Riddle and Galeon do when they play teams. Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JGJqpJWoIs
It happens at 3:27. Your wrong about alot of things. lol.
 
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