The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[da K.I.D.]

franklin badges can reflect fox and falcos down throws.

i thought that was funny.

also, bucket doesnt absorb every energy attack. it makes me very angry that you cant bucket ness's fair

 

[SuSa]

And we have a winner!

Yeah, now I can fix my definitions. (Tien, this means you were right about Zamus Dsmash. :x it's a disjointed energy attack. (Energy makes it a special collision bubble IIRC)

All in favor of definitions that make sense? XD

Projectile:
Hitbox is reflected by Franklin Badge. /lolsimple

Extension: (This is more honest then a disjoint)
An attack that is not a Projectile - and which the hitbox does not overlap by a significant margin, the character hurtbox.

Standard:
Any attack that is neither a Projectile or an Extension.

Anyone agree on those definitions? (Or anyone have a better idea for Extension?)

EDIT:
Goggles. I'm like 90% sure that's because Ness's fair is simply a STANDARD hitbox collision with sparkle gfx. Zamus dsmash is a SPECIAL COLLISION.

Also it's because a projectile is shot/used in those dthrows. =p So the projectile is reflected.

Special Collision = Can be Energy attack
(That, or it's the flag. I can't remember... lol)

EDIT:
@CaliburChamp
There was a major flaw in absorption. They can't absorb all projectiles, only special hitboxes or specially flagged moves.

Although my reflection and/or absorption was a solid foundry, it WAS flawed. ^^

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Where in florida? haven't heard of you at any tournies around here.

I live in Punta Gorda on the west coast of Florida. Nothing goes on here. Nothing.

Nothing.

It's also ridiculously far away from anything, so I tend not to go to any tourneys but my bad local ones. We can play on wifi some time if you'd like.

 

[Spelt]

Your the idiot. ZSS down-smash IS a projectile. It heal's Ness and Lucas. This is what Nick Riddle and Galeon do when they play teams. Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JGJqpJWoIs
It happens at 3:27. Your wrong about alot of things. lol.

Now THIS, is trolling.
if not, that's just plain sad...

 

[Tien2500]

I'm still not sure if Fludd can be reflected in which case it would not fit in any category.

 

[Gindler]

I wonder if Ness' dthrow can be absorbed, it's energy like Fox's and falco's...hmmmmmm

I live in Punta Gorda on the west coast of Florida. Nothing goes on here. Nothing.

Nothing.

It's also ridiculously far away from anything, so I tend not to go to any tourneys but my bad local ones. We can play on wifi some time if you'd like.

I figured west coast that's where all the people that don't go to tournies in florida live, people come from all around for gigs though. Nah I've never played Wi-fi and am hoping to never change that.

 

[adumbrodeus]

As I said before, test if the hitbox is truly independant from the character to see if it's a projectile.



If mario/pit reflects it, does the character move?


Does it cause hitstun when it hits?


If not, then it's not a projectile. Both of those test the same thing.

My point was that it is useful to arrange to group things not by technical dictionary definitions but rather group them by how they're used in a battle. For example by your standard ZSS' Dsmash would be a projectile and I don't think that's the right classification.

If you disagree that's fine. If you think I'm wrong that's fine. But there is really no reason to drag up a dead pointless topic that was discussed a couple of hours ago just to insult me. Really what was the point of dropping in just to do that?

The point of referring to the English language is so you have a common point of reference. Same as if you're referring to a legal lexicon, or any other form of technical language.


Otherwise, we have endless debates about the meaning of words, and unfortunately, categorizations are useful enough that we can't just drop them.



So no, redefining the english language and correcting it when they don't use YOUR version of it is not an option, it just confuses people and causes endless debates.


Adjectives are your friend.

Definitions are not static they change all the time varied based on many factors such as context. For example when talking about electrical appliances we use the terms male and female to describe objects (male plugs in to the female). Obviously this is different from the traditional meaning of male and female (although probably dictionaries have caught up by now). But the point is that in some contexts we change the meanings of things. Jargon.

I'm not sure if the Civil war thing was a joke but Civil does not mean courteous in that case. It means relating to states or their citizenry. Notice how I can correct you without insulting you .

By the technical definition yes ZSS' Dsmash is a projectile. I know that technically it is but it seems pointless to group it with other moves that are nothing like it. If we were debating what the best projectile in the game was I think it would be silly to say ZSS' down Smash.

BTW ZSS' down Smash hits through reflectors. Alot of times Wolf/Fox will wait for me to throw her item pieces and sit there with their reflectors. So I'll glide toss then Dsmash which hits them.

But that's language evolving, that's slang ultimately becoming part of the vernacular.


It happens naturally, trying to force it simply confuses and annoys people.

 

[Tien2500]

As I said before, test if the hitbox is truly independant from the character to see if it's a projectile.



If mario/pit reflects it, does the character move?


Does it cause hitstun when it hits?


If not, then it's not a projectile. Both of those test the same thing.





The point of referring to the English language is so you have a common point of reference. Same as if you're referring to a legal lexicon, or any other form of technical language.


Otherwise, we have endless debates about the meaning of words, and unfortunately, categorizations are useful enough that we can't just drop them.

But that's language evolving, that's slang ultimately becoming part of the vernacular.


It happens naturally, trying to force it simply confuses and annoys people.

But in the end there is no inherent link between the signifier and the sign so its all meaningless and calling Lassie a fish or a dog are equally valid.

 

[phi1ny3]

Speaking of reflecting, why is it that the only thing that can reflect falco's downB is ROB's SideB?
And yes, I'm dead sure that this is true.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But in the end there is no inherent link between the signifier and the sign so its all meaningless and calling Lassie a fish or a dog are equally valid.

If the meaning of words changed so "dog" means what fish means and "fish" means what "dog" means then yes, it would be valid to call Lassie a fish.



While there are reasons words evolve why they do, the connection to their signifier is only in people agreeing that "this means that".


That's why technical definitions often include words that "feel" wrong, but they still share the commonality covered.


Ultimately, that's the problem with going with "feeling" instead of technical definitions, people "feel" differently.

 

[Tien2500]

What is the reason that the sound images generated by the signs "fish" should be any different than that denoted by "dog". If enough people say its so is it any more true? If enough people said that the Earth revolved around the moon would it be so? If everyone agreed that Ganon was the best character in Brawl and you said "no Metaknight is" who is wrong and who is right?

 

[Kitamerby]

As I said before, test if the hitbox is truly independant from the character to see if it's a projectile.



If mario/pit reflects it, does the character move?


Does it cause hitstun when it hits?


If not, then it's not a projectile. Both of those test the same thing.

That's too complicated. It takes too long to test that, although testing if the hitbox is truly independent from the character would be a good way to go about it... if not for the fact that franklin badges are just easier to use and you can't really test if fox's/falco's dthrows are independent from them unless you use a franklin badge/reflector as they throw...

Also, Fox's lasers produce neither hitstun nor hitlag. They would not fit the second portion of your definition. However, it is common knowledge that they are, in fact, a projectile.

I think Sakurai specifically made Fox's lasers to work that way just to screw up our definitions of projectiles lol.

Otherwise, we have endless debates about the meaning of words, and unfortunately, categorizations are useful enough that we can't just drop them.

I must admit, it was quite fun though. It's not like anything truly metagame-changing ever goes on in this thread, anyways.

So no, redefining the english language and correcting it when they don't use YOUR version of it is not an option, it just confuses people and causes endless debates.

Adjectives are your friend.

But that's language evolving, that's slang ultimately becoming part of the vernacular.


It happens naturally, trying to force it simply confuses and annoys people.

We can still try! It's totally tubular to rewrite the English language.

But really, we're only doing this to cut down on the amount of over-technical people who come in and nitpick at what is/isn't a projectile, really. No real competitive use other than to cut down on the nitpickers. Sorta like differentiating between a glitch and an exploit. A glitch is when you do something by exploiting the game mechanics to produce something funky. An exploit is when you do something by exploiting the game mechanics to produce something funky, but is justified because it coincides with basic game physics, which a glitch can be.

And we have a winner!

Yeah, now I can fix my definitions.

Can't we just go with the old definitions? Projectile, attack, disjoint, and funky/weird/special attacks/hitbox? It's not like it really matters what they're called. It doesn't really mean much if we change the wording, so let's just go with what we're used to. The entire argument was just for the sake of nitpicking, after all. =D

Also yeah, Ness's Fair is a looped normal hitbox with sparkles. Special collisions are generally used in special moves, such as the Mach Tornady, but are occasionally spread around for super secret awesome moves, like the Knee (just to nerf it so it can't reverse. :X) or ZSS dsmash.

Also, to clarify, if someone replaces the special hitbox on the knee with a normal one, the knee will be able to reverse again. =D

 

[DMG]

Hey guys what's goin---

OH GOD!!! NOOOO!!!! NOT THE BUCKET!!!!!

*Is absorbed by G&W bucket*

*flarblegarblegarbleas;frablegabbbbaerlgarbleflarbleflarble*

Lol this projectile talk got serious, I've never seen the need to define the difference between projectiles/other hitboxes, but I'm glad I guess that you guys put in the effort.

 

[Ripple]

*flarblegarblegarbleas;frablegabbbbaerlgarbleflarbleflarble*

.

can I quote you on that....lol

I think the question we're all asking here is "WHO CARES????"

why does it matter so much as to what is defined as a projectile

 

[Tien2500]

can I quote you on that....lol

I think the question we're all asking here is "WHO CARES????"

why does it matter so much as to what is defined as a projectile

Well it was about as significant as anything discussed in this thread. It was either that or we could have argued about how Game and Watch is over/under rated for the 40th time. It was insignificant but at least it was new and insignificant instead of old and insignificant.

 

[deepseadiva]

I think the question we're all asking here is "WHO CARES????"

Pretty much defines this entire thread.

The whole site even. xD

Might as well.

 

[Nic64]

I've never seen the need to define the difference between projectiles/other hitboxes

It's all the same when you're running/air dodging away from it <_<

 

[Tien2500]

It's all the same when you're running/air dodging away from it <_<

Lol. That's the point. You don't run away/air dodge from Fludd.

 

[Ripple]

lets talk about how falcon is actually 5th from the bottom IMO

 

[Tien2500]

lets talk about how falcon is actually 5th from the bottom IMO

So that means you think he's better than Jiggly, Link, G-dorf and ???

Samus?

 

[phi1ny3]

Speaking of reflecting, why is it that the only thing that can reflect falco's downB is ROB's SideB?
And yes, I'm dead sure that this is true.

Seriously, what's the reasoning behind this?
Every other reflector seems to be ignored when falco kicks his reflector, but ROB's will actually reflect his reflector back on him.

 

[shinyspoon42]

For bottom tier, worst to best;

Gdorf- because he is Gdorf, further explanation not required. Suffice to say, he has more weaknesses then a caterpie against charizard.
Link- just like Gdorf, he has such obvious and exploitable weaknesses that no matter how great the player, he suffers.
Falcon- in case you are noticing a pattern, falcon also has severe weaknesses. His are less exploitable then Gdorfs or Links, but they are still there.
Jiggly- Just like everyone else in bottom tier, she has weaknesses that lead to her downfall. The difference is, what she does, she does well.

my list is;
Jigglypuff
Falcon
Link
Ganon

Samus isn't bottom tier in my opinion.


@phil- I had not noticed that, what unique properties does R.O.Bs >B have?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm just been doing a bit a research of solo IC vs various characters. But solo IC aren't as bad as you think, they have a chain grab on most of the cast, and are overall faster than Link, and have a better recovery by a bit. Without the chain grab, they would be the worst character in the game by far. (They still might be, still researching it.) And yes, Link does belong in the same tier as Ganon, they are both uber slow, and have a horrible recovery.

Disjointedness makes up for it a bit.

Projectiles aren't that hard to get around, and Link isn't fast enough to keep up with some characters

They still apply pressure, even Z-air helps with this.

Link and Ganon, are pretty bad at edge guarding, if they go to far out to attack someone off stage, they won't be able to make it back to the stage.

I shoot arrows and bombs and proceed to Zedge to abuse invincibility frames. Going off stage Link won't really do, that much is true.

Watch this you'll see what I mean. Xyro (Samus) vs Legan (Link) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AZ-fDJvxNI

I really proved you wrong BIG time! There's no denying that. LOL! By the way, you should do your research before you post something, it makes it more legit that way. Facts > personal opinion

Legan 2-0 Xyro77 in tournament.

This was the MM that happened afterwards.

 

[Browny]

so, does franklin badge reflect lucarios force palm?

 

[Nefarious B]

Zss and Rob just get ***** buy some top tiers, olimar not so much.

I thought your post was pretty interesting. I just wanted to clarify this though: ROB gets ***** by ZSS and MK. ZSS gets ***** by Falco. Olimar gets ***** by MK (and marth?).

So really, they all have 1-2 terrible high tier matchups. So basically if you had to compare ZS vs Olimar in this way, you should be asking, "Would I rather get ***** by Meta or Falco?" By the way I do agree that Olimar is better than ZS, and that ROB is slightly lower than both of them. However, I think you're saying Olimar is better for the wrong reasons.

IMO, ZS, Olimar, and Lucario should all make up the bottom of A tier, and ROB should be at the the top of B tier

 

[Metro Knight]

--A--
Meta Knight
Snake
--B--
Dedede
Falco
Wario
Marth
Diddy Kong
Game and Watch
--C--
R.O.B.
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Lucario
Kirby
Pikachu
DK
Zero Suit Samus
--D--
Peach
Toon Link
Pit
Wolf
Sonic
Fox
Luigi
P.T.
Ike
Sheik/Zelda
Ness
--E--
Lucas
Bowser
Yoshi
Samus
Mario
Link
Jiggs
C.F
Ganon

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Luigi ***** Olimar more than Marth does, according to Olimar boards.

 

[Legan]

Legan 2-0 Xyro77 in tournament.

This was the MM that happened afterwards.

Dude thank you, Those matches have been spammed and everyones like samus ***** link but no one even takes into consideration i beat him when it really mattered. I was putting on a show for the mm because it was live streamed and recorded but in tournament I didnt blindly approach and played way smarter. Which is why I 2-0'd him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What is the reason that the sound images generated by the signs "fish" should be any different than that denoted by "dog". If enough people say its so is it any more true? If enough people said that the Earth revolved around the moon would it be so? If everyone agreed that Ganon was the best character in Brawl and you said "no Metaknight is" who is wrong and who is right?

No, logic says no.



False analogy fallacy, the properties that we are discussing in language are simply not carried over to what you are talking about.


Namely the property that language is defined by consent, instead of being a reference to an otherwise existing property.


Either consent of the population, or consent of the people who define language (think Merriam-Webster).


On the other hand, the questions of "whether MK is better then Ganondorf" and "does the earth revolve around the moon" are questions related to actual facts.


The main reason is because language is an institution of convenience, not something that directly references the outside world. That means that it's ok to have a reference that's what people think.


But for anything that's not defined by people that's pure idiocy.

stuff

Erm, actually mistake on my point, not hitstun, HITLAG.


And it's an "and/or" thing.

 

[lordvaati]

--A--
Meta Knight
Snake
--B--
Dedede
Falco
Wario
Marth
Diddy Kong
Game and Watch
--C--
R.O.B.
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Lucario
Kirby
Pikachu
DK
Zero Suit Samus
--D--
Peach
Toon Link
Pit
Wolf
Sonic
Fox
Luigi
P.T.
Ike
Sheik/Zelda
Ness
--E--
Lucas
Bowser
Yoshi
Samus
Mario
Link
Jiggs
C.F
Ganon

S and F should be added, since I heavily doubt half the Brawl cast is D and E Tier.

 

[Kewkky]

According to all of Ankoku's Character Rankings thread's results so far...

1) MK (1.18)
2) Snake (1.82)
3) DDD (4.27)
4) Falco (5.55)
5) Wario (5.64)
6) Marth (6.18)
7) Diddy (7.91)
8) G&W (8.36)
9) ROB (9.91)
10) ICs (10.91)
11) Olimar (11.18)
12) Lucario (12.00)
13) Kirby (12.72)
14) Pikachu (14.09)
15) DK (14.81)
16) ZSS (16.18)
17) Wolf (17.81)
18) Pit (18.64)
19) Peach (18.72)
20) TL (19.09)
21) Sonic (21.18)
22) Fox (21.63)
23) Luigi (22.18)
24) PT (22.55)
25) Zelda/Sheik (24.81)
26) Ike (25.18)
27) Ness (25.81)
28) Lucas (27.82)
29) Yoshi (29.27)
30) Bowser (29.63)
31) Samus (30.00)
32) Mario (30.45)
33) Link (30.64)
34) Jigglypuff (31.72)
35) C. Falcon (33.18)
36) Ganondorf (33.90)

What would you argue against these placements? Would it make a good tier list, or a bad one? And how would you guys classify all the tiers (who's in S, A, B, C, D...)?

*I know how tourney results don't mean how good or bad a character might be, due to things like the popularity of a bad matchup, or lack of representation... But it still reflects the overall placing of the characters, which is necessary data in the makings of a tierlist... Yes, I know some characters might look pretty ugly there, but it's just an average of ALL the tourney data, so bear with me here.

 

[Jupz]

That's an interesting list, Metaknight and snake are way ahead of everyone else.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zss and Rob just get ***** buy some top tiers, olimar not so much.

ZSS doesn't really get "*****" by any top tiers. She is owned by Falco on flat neutrals really badly but is even or 6:4 with him (or even wins, on RC) on most other stages. And I guess he owns her on Japes, but everyone owns her on Japes. Lol

She's like 45:55 or so with MK, EVEN with Snake (yes, I said even with Snake and I stand by it), about even with Wario (I think PX and Snakeee said Wario has a very slight advantage), beats Dedede pretty blatantly at 6/4, and, uh, I'm not sure about Diddy Kong. We go back and forth with him a lot. Snakeee says he doesn't have problems with Diddy anymore and ADHD says it's about 45:55 for Diddy so we'll go with that.

So her top tier match-ups are pretty good and she's about even with or beats most of high tier. Other than Falco, I can't think of any match-ups she even loses badly enough to mention. There are the controversial ones like Olimar but then all of ZSS' best players say ZSS wins slightly, so...

I've said it before but ZSS is a top-10 character and has been for a long time. About the same as Pikachu, IMO.

 

[Kewkky]

I've said it before but ZSS is a top-10 character and has been for a long time. About the same as Pikachu, IMO.

I think top 10 is pushing it too far. Between #10 and where she is now, I'd say it's good... But not higher than #10.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think top 10 is pushing it too far. Between #10 and where she is now, I'd say it's good... But not higher than #10.

No, she's definitely top 10. She's better than GaW, better, than ROB, better than Kirby, and about on the level of Pikachu or Olimar.

Meta
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario
Marth, ICs, Dedede, somewhere in here
Pikachu and ZSS somwhere here
Olimar
GaW
Kirby

etc

 

[Jupz]

Eww. I think ZSS is just fine where she is

How does she have a 45:55 matchup against MK?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Eww. I think ZSS is just fine where she is

How does she have a 45:55 matchup against MK?

Because she handles him pretty well in the air (beats him, really) and doesn't really fall victim to his gimping game because down-b kick trades hits with shuttle loop and sends him away from the stage and her toward it; while it's fair to say in a fight offstage, MK'd win, she never has to be offstage longer than she wants to be so it's not a big deal.

She's difficult for him to combo, difficult for him to get inside (not with side-b, just her aerial game) and does a decent job of baiting him into her superior aerials (and the are superior). Uair>anything MK has really.

Of course he wins pretty hardcore on the ground and his uair can be really annoying.

She also has a few gay locks on him (a grab release and a dash attack lock, both very situational but both resulting in a walk-off KO or at least some free damage).

Basically MK has to work nearly as hard to beat ZSS as she has to work to beat him.

 

[Kewkky]

ZSS does well against MK, but I see MK having a larger advantage than 55:45... If you make even ONE mistake close to the ledges, you're going to either take a buttload of damage getting back on-stage, or die.

 

[mountain_tiger]

No, she's definitely top 10. She's better than GaW, better, than ROB, better than Kirby, and about on the level of Pikachu or Olimar.

Meta
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario
Marth, ICs, Dedede, somewhere in here
Pikachu and ZSS somwhere here
Olimar
GaW
Kirby

etc

Better than ROB, definitely. Better than Kirby, debatable, but I'd say she is. But better than Mr GaW? No way. And Olimar and Pikachu is easily better than her. #12 seems about right for her.

 

[Gnes]

@ Kewkky

Or both

^_^