Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Wait... ZSS's down smash can be reflected or absorbed?
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
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SuSa
Banned via Administration
I've done the infinite 9 times. :3
It's satisfying to pull off.
That being said, I only do it for like 20-30%. I suck at it, so don't risk losing my free thunder.
EDIT:
@Melo
Not 100% on reflected, I would ASSUME so.
It can be absorbed, how do you like G&W's bucket works? Same with the Earth Boys Psi Magnet.
It's satisfying to pull off.
That being said, I only do it for like 20-30%. I suck at it, so don't risk losing my free thunder.
EDIT:
@Melo
Not 100% on reflected, I would ASSUME so.
It can be absorbed, how do you like G&W's bucket works? Same with the Earth Boys Psi Magnet.
Definitions are not static they change all the time varied based on many factors such as context. For example when talking about electrical appliances we use the terms male and female to describe objects (male plugs in to the female). Obviously this is different from the traditional meaning of male and female (although probably dictionaries have caught up by now). But the point is that in some contexts we change the meanings of things. Jargon.
I'm not sure if the Civil war thing was a joke but Civil does not mean courteous in that case. It means relating to states or their citizenry. Notice how I can correct you without insulting you
.By the technical definition yes ZSS' Dsmash is a projectile. I know that technically it is but it seems pointless to group it with other moves that are nothing like it. If we were debating what the best projectile in the game was I think it would be silly to say ZSS' down Smash.
BTW ZSS' down Smash hits through reflectors. Alot of times Wolf/Fox will wait for me to throw her item pieces and sit there with their reflectors. So I'll glide toss then Dsmash which hits them.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Context changes, that doesn't change the meaning of a word. Unless you can get a vast majority of people to use the word as you do, it will not be accepted.
If I decided to pull a South Park, and I decided to say "Sparkles" instead of "yes", I don't think it'd be accepted.
If I called a certain breed of dog a "yharklah" just because I felt it was different enough then most species of dogs. Does that change the fact it's a dog? No.
Just because you don't want to classify it as a projectile, does not mean you are correct.
EDIT:
And yes, the Civil War thing was a joke. Couldn't think of a good example. :3
PS:
Never take me seriously on the internet.
If I decided to pull a South Park, and I decided to say "Sparkles" instead of "yes", I don't think it'd be accepted.
If I called a certain breed of dog a "yharklah" just because I felt it was different enough then most species of dogs. Does that change the fact it's a dog? No.
Just because you don't want to classify it as a projectile, does not mean you are correct.
EDIT:
And yes, the Civil War thing was a joke. Couldn't think of a good example. :3
PS:
Never take me seriously on the internet.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
This is the only info I can find about solo IC vs a Link player. The video is old. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD4rlSB6uO0#movie_player
Solo IC still wins with 2 stocks left.
Solo IC still wins with 2 stocks left.
Well if the species of dog in question can reproduce with other dogs and have fertile offspring then its the same species.
No it doesn't mean I'm correct because its not a matter of right and wrong. Its a matter of how we choose to classify things. And I have a different opinion of how things should be classified which I feel is based on a logical foundation. You're just harping on technicalities. If you want to group things by the strict dictionary definition than more power to you. I disagree.
Olimar's Fsmash. Projectile or not?
Tien, out of curiosity, what other smashes does G&W's bucket absorb (besides ZSS's dsmash)?
I also KNOW that ZSS's dsmash has projectile properties... But not the ones you are thinking, Tien. Just like some projectiles, it can't be reflected (Snake's usmash as a primary example, it explodes on contact with a reflector, I believe), so you might not see it as a traditional projectile.
I also KNOW that ZSS's dsmash has projectile properties... But not the ones you are thinking, Tien. Just like some projectiles, it can't be reflected (Snake's usmash as a primary example, it explodes on contact with a reflector, I believe), so you might not see it as a traditional projectile.
Like I said I *know* that going by the strictest traditional definition it *is * a projectile. But I just think that we can be more flexible than that in defining things. As far as I know ZSS' dsmash is the only smash that can be absorbed by the bucket.
I thought Zelda could reflect Snake's Usmash though.
Palpi
Smash Hero
@Champ; Funny, but it was a very long time ago.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Snake's usmash is reflected, but it's trajectory doesn't really change. Just who's control it's under. Test this by having Falco use a reflector on it, then let it fall on Snake. :x Snake gets hit.
Olimar's fsmash cannot be reflected nor absorbed. It is a disjoint by definition.
Olimar's fsmash cannot be reflected nor absorbed. It is a disjoint by definition.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
l2quote
Also, that match was difficult to watch. So much rolling, and missed follow-ups.
I'm confused, I thought the argument was about using real life definitions in Smash. By real life definition, Olimar's forward smash would be a projectile.
Ok but if we go by the dictionary definition (2. a body projected or impelled forward, as through the air) Olimar's Fsmash is a projectile.
(And I'm pretty sure Olimar's fsmash doesn't meet the dictionary definition for disjointed either while we're at it).
The dictionary definition obviously has nothing in it about reflectors but within the context of smash brothers we define things differently. We don't have to go by the dictionary definition of things. That's all I'm trying to say here.
Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
That video.......wow that guy was terrible
Palpi
Smash Hero
people posted when I was typing that and I don't feel like quoting and copying the quote into my post.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Lol at Solo IC being above Link. Link isn't even in the same league of bad as solo IC, solomar, or even CF or Ganon.
Say what you want about him; I agree that he's bad but the difference between Link players and players of characters like Samus/Jiggly/CF/Ganon is that Link has great players who place. They might not place well but they compete with and occasionally beat good or great players. When was the last time you heard about a pro Falcon tanking out his region's best Olimar?
I'm by no means arguing that Link is a good character, merely that he isn't a broken or ill-designed one like, say CF, whose hitboxes were designed for a character with completely different movement mechanics in a game with 10% more hitstun, or Samus, who... well don't even get me started on Samus.
Link's recovery is what it is but I'm amazed that people would put him in the same tier as Ganon. Seriously? Really?
Say what you want about him; I agree that he's bad but the difference between Link players and players of characters like Samus/Jiggly/CF/Ganon is that Link has great players who place. They might not place well but they compete with and occasionally beat good or great players. When was the last time you heard about a pro Falcon tanking out his region's best Olimar?
I'm by no means arguing that Link is a good character, merely that he isn't a broken or ill-designed one like, say CF, whose hitboxes were designed for a character with completely different movement mechanics in a game with 10% more hitstun, or Samus, who... well don't even get me started on Samus.
Link's recovery is what it is but I'm amazed that people would put him in the same tier as Ganon. Seriously? Really?
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Strictly by definition, Olimar's fsmash would be a projectile.
However the trait unique to projectiles in Smash would render it a disjoint.
So yes, you are correct on the context of the word.
(wait, can Olimar's fsmash be reflected?... I don't think so O_o but I COULD be wrong.....)
Disjoint:
Attack is not tied to a character bone. (Strictly, any hitbox that does not directly overlap a hitbox is disjointed and considered a disjoint. However this term is generally used if it's distinctively seperated, or the character itself does not share the hitbox. EG: Olimar's moveset (save nair and tilts+jab), most (if not all) sword attacks.
Projectile:
An attack which can be reflected or absorbed. (This is unique to all projectiles, including items)
The 3rd type would generally be called a "standard" attack. Basically, it covers any attack that does not fall under the other two.
However the trait unique to projectiles in Smash would render it a disjoint.
So yes, you are correct on the context of the word.
(wait, can Olimar's fsmash be reflected?... I don't think so O_o but I COULD be wrong.....)
Disjoint:
Attack is not tied to a character bone. (Strictly, any hitbox that does not directly overlap a hitbox is disjointed and considered a disjoint. However this term is generally used if it's distinctively seperated, or the character itself does not share the hitbox. EG: Olimar's moveset (save nair and tilts+jab), most (if not all) sword attacks.
Projectile:
An attack which can be reflected or absorbed. (This is unique to all projectiles, including items)
The 3rd type would generally be called a "standard" attack. Basically, it covers any attack that does not fall under the other two.
Olimar's sideB can't be reflected or absorbed. ZSS's dsmash can't be reflected but can be absorbed. Snake's grenades can be reflected but can't be absorbed. Falco's laser can be reflected and absorbed. Disjoints are hitboxes that don't overlap the hurtboxes, and projectiles are also bound to this definition...
Why are you guys arguing about the whole thing, anyway? It would be easier to just go with the terms already stated attacks should be, rather than just fight over how they should be called.
Why are you guys arguing about the whole thing, anyway? It would be easier to just go with the terms already stated attacks should be, rather than just fight over how they should be called.
Noa.
Smash Master
Actually, Oli's side B can be reflected. And Susa said reflected OR absorbed. Not both. If it can do either, it works as a projectile.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Draconoa knows whats up.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
It might be semantics, but it's interesting.
I'd say it's equally important as discussing the tier list.
Fine, then replace it with his fsmash and done, heh. I forgot Mario's cape existed, but then again, it turns people around so I wouldn't consider it a REFLECTOR per sé... I think of it as an attack that turns stuff around, including hurtboxes.
Unless you mean some other reflector.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Fsmash is a disjoint, read up on the argument more.
If Mario capes Fsmash, will the pikmin hurt Olimar? If so, it's a projectile. :x
If Mario capes Fsmash, will the pikmin hurt Olimar? If so, it's a projectile. :x
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
I'm just been doing a bit a research of solo IC vs various characters. But solo IC aren't as bad as you think, they have a chain grab on most of the cast, and are overall faster than Link, and have a better recovery by a bit. Without the chain grab, they would be the worst character in the game by far. (They still might be, still researching it.) And yes, Link does belong in the same tier as Ganon, they are both uber slow, and have a horrible recovery. Projectiles aren't that hard to get around, and Link isn't fast enough to keep up with some characters. Link and Ganon, are pretty bad at edge guarding, if they go to far out to attack someone off stage, they won't be able to make it back to the stage.
Check Ally's Falcon by the way. It actually won a friendly vs M2K MK, and it won against some other pretty legit players in Canada. The reason why Samus is better is because she has a better recovery, Z-air (longest non projectile attack in the game.) and it combos into stuff, Z-air to charge beam, Z-air, to D-air when your opponent is cornered at the edge.
Watch this you'll see what I mean. Xyro (Samus) vs Legan (Link) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AZ-fDJvxNI
I really proved you wrong BIG time! There's no denying that. LOL! By the way, you should do your research before you post something, it makes it more legit that way. Facts > personal opinion
Ok but my point (which you've just proven) is that these definitions that you are giving us are not the dictionary definitions. You disqualified Olimar's Fsmash not because it went against the dictionary definition of the word projectile but because you (or whoever originally made this definition if it wasn't you) felt that it was sufficiently different from other moves in the category that it should be defined differently.
Basically you decided that the smash lexicon is different than the standard English lexicon. Sort of like I ummm said.
Similarly I feel that ZSS' Dsmash for instance by not having a moving hitbox is significantly different from other projectiles and should be classified differently. Basically I disagree with your definition and think that a different one would give a clearer view of what we commonly think of as projectiles. I think that when most players think of projectiles they do not think of ZSS' Dsmash or Squirtles Watergun (which is what started this argument and which to my knowledge cannot be reflected or absorbed) and as such I think the definition that we *choose* to use for projectile should reflect that.
Edit: As for Solo Climbers I don't think their recovery is better than Link's. To my knowledge they can't get any vertical distance whatsoever (except a tiny bit) and have no hitbox at all on Up B. At least you have to work a little to gimp link...
Can the fsmashed pikmins be killed by another attack? Or does it clash or something?
I have no idea.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
To my knowledge, FLUDD and Watergun can be reflected. Also Char/Bowser Fire can be reflected AND absorbed.
It still followed the definition of a projectile. In every means, it is a projectile. However - as you mentioned about context - in game, a projectile has criteria. Otherwise it is simply a disjoint.
Out of curiosity, what would you classify the projectiles that you do not see as a projectile as?
EDIT:
Out of further curiosity, what do you see a problem with the 3 part system? Oo Keeps classifying a move really, really simply.
"Can it be absorbed/reflected?"
"No"
"Is it apart from the characters hurtbox?"
"No"
"It's standard"
Replying "yes" to the first question would have it be classified as a projectile, without needing to ask the next 2 questions.
Replying "no" to the first question, but "yes" to the second would classify it as a disjoint.
To my knowledge, those 3 questions sum up every single move in the game into 3 nice, organized categories that each have a criteria that must be met. This also makes it so there is no confusion on the matter of what move is what.
Noa.
Smash Master
When Oli's fsmash gets caped, it doesn't hurt him.
In regards to Kewkky's question about Oli's fsmash, yes the pikmin can die, because it's hurtbox is attached to the hitbox. But I suppose Susa's definition refers to Olimar's hurtbox and not the pikmin's. In that case, it is disjointed from the hurtbox.
I agree with Susa's definition btw. It's clear, concise, and you can't really argue whether or not a move is a projectile or disjointed by using it.
In regards to Kewkky's question about Oli's fsmash, yes the pikmin can die, because it's hurtbox is attached to the hitbox. But I suppose Susa's definition refers to Olimar's hurtbox and not the pikmin's. In that case, it is disjointed from the hurtbox.
I agree with Susa's definition btw. It's clear, concise, and you can't really argue whether or not a move is a projectile or disjointed by using it.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Oli's fsmash is disjointed then, not a projectile.
I am talking of the character's hitbox. I understand the Pikmin have a hurtbox as well - and that's starting to get extremely technical. In which case you'd have to prove Pikmin are their own character, rather then a simple extension (of their own being) of another character.
You could bring up the IC's, and try to bring up Nana. Nana is but an extension of Popo, and would be seen as a disjoint. Although that is really hard to think about. <_<
@Draconoa
I don't remember where I read those definitions, but I can assure you they aren't mine. However, your last statement is correct. Which is why I like the definitions.
I am talking of the character's hitbox. I understand the Pikmin have a hurtbox as well - and that's starting to get extremely technical. In which case you'd have to prove Pikmin are their own character, rather then a simple extension (of their own being) of another character.
You could bring up the IC's, and try to bring up Nana. Nana is but an extension of Popo, and would be seen as a disjoint. Although that is really hard to think about. <_<
@Draconoa
I don't remember where I read those definitions, but I can assure you they aren't mine. However, your last statement is correct. Which is why I like the definitions.
Eh I'll take your word for it on the waterguns. I know the fire moves can be reflected and absorbed.
Right. But my point is that we have chosen to define projectiles differently than the dictionary does by adding certain qualifications. We made our own definition which I don't agree with. By the dictionary definition Olimar's Fsmash is a projectile and ZSS' Dsmash is not.
I would define ZSS' Dsmash as a disjoint if I had to put it into the current system because I feel thats how its actually used in battle. The Waterguns and Firebreaths I don't know honestly. If I had to use the current system I would probably have to begrudgingly put them in the projectile category. They fit better there than the other two at least.
EDIT:
Its simple but I don't think simpler is always better. I think in general the Smash community tends to be a bit rigid in grouping things and there needs to be more flexibility.
Whenever you try to make a classification system you're going to have some things that don't fit in. Like viruses. We don't know whether to classify them as living because they show some signs of life but not all. I feel that ZSS' Dsmash is the same way. If displays some of the characteristics of a projectile (absorbable) but doesn't have others (movement). So I don't think you can just neatly call it a projectile or a disjointed attack. So saying everything *has* to fit into one of these three categories forces you to put things where they don't entirely belong.
Also I don't like the criteria for projectiles in particular. I don't think that being reflectable is the most important thing about projectiles.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
By dictionary definition, ZSS' Dsmash is a projectile. However shortlived, and it stops.
It's able to be absorbed, that makes it a projectile. There is no real arguing against that classification.
We do not classify it because it's different then the others. We classify it by the criteria in which they share. (This is done the same way in life as well. Cannot think of a good example by now, if we classify something as bipedal, it is assumed either it has 2 feet. Or it talks on 2 feet (I forget which, maybe both are correct?) Would we classify a dog/cat bipedal because they sometimes walk on 2 feet? Nope. (Sorry, best example I could think of...)
I feel that you feel that movement is the most important thing about a projectile. However, if that is the case. ZSS is a projectile herself (down-B). Would you classify a character as a projectile?
Also, it would make most characters recoveries a projectile. :x
It's able to be absorbed, that makes it a projectile. There is no real arguing against that classification.
We do not classify it because it's different then the others. We classify it by the criteria in which they share. (This is done the same way in life as well. Cannot think of a good example by now, if we classify something as bipedal, it is assumed either it has 2 feet. Or it talks on 2 feet (I forget which, maybe both are correct?) Would we classify a dog/cat bipedal because they sometimes walk on 2 feet? Nope. (Sorry, best example I could think of...)
I feel that you feel that movement is the most important thing about a projectile. However, if that is the case. ZSS is a projectile herself (down-B). Would you classify a character as a projectile?
Also, it would make most characters recoveries a projectile. :x
Noa.
Smash Master
Who's ever definitions they are, they're pretty good ones.
Can you think of a projectile that isn't absorbed or reflected?
Again I feel you're being too rigid. Honestly in terms of function is ZSS' Dsmash more similar to Marth's Fsmash or Pits Arrows?
And movement is not the only criteria. If I were to define projectile it would definitely have something about being separate from (not tethered to) the user's body in its definition.
No. But I can think of moves that can be absorbed or reflected that I wouldn't consider projectiles.
Browny
Smash Hater
Luigi missfire
SuSa
Banned via Administration
It does not matter how it functions.
Let me ask you a question:
"Is the letter "Y" a vowel, or a consonant?"
EDIT:
@DJ
Luigi's misfire, in definition is a projectile. In criteria it's a standard, MAYBE a disjoint. But I don't think it's disjointed. (If it is, it's minor. Then it comes down to "how big of a disjoint must it be to be considered a disjoint?" however, all disjoints are standards. Not all standards are disjoints. So meh..)
(Mario's cape cannot be used in this argument, otherwise every single thing would be a projectile, so it should be added under "reflected" a stricter and more defined definition of "and able to hurt the previous owner of projectile")
Let me ask you a question:
"Is the letter "Y" a vowel, or a consonant?"
EDIT:
@DJ
Luigi's misfire, in definition is a projectile. In criteria it's a standard, MAYBE a disjoint. But I don't think it's disjointed. (If it is, it's minor. Then it comes down to "how big of a disjoint must it be to be considered a disjoint?" however, all disjoints are standards. Not all standards are disjoints. So meh..)
(Mario's cape cannot be used in this argument, otherwise every single thing would be a projectile, so it should be added under "reflected" a stricter and more defined definition of "and able to hurt the previous owner of projectile")
In yes its a consonant. In myth it is a vowel. The letter y can represent different sounds so it can be either depending on the situation.
And I think it does matter how it functions, or at least it should. If we're not classifying moves based on how they function... then whats the point of classifying them?
And SOMETIMES "Y".
SuSa
Banned via Administration
The function projectiles share:
Able to be reflected/absorbed
Disjoints:
Unable to be reflected/absorbed. Not attached to character hurtbox
Standard:
Unable to be reflected/absorbed, attached to character hurtbox.
If you are separating on function otherwise, then you would have to determine WHAT function.
ZSS' B stuns, so does D-smash. Would that make them equals in function?
So would that cause the B move to NOT be a projectile, or the Dsmash to be a projectile?
Why would you make that decision (if you chose one)
That's what I hate about English.
Goose, geese.
Moose, moose.
WHERE ARE MY MEESE!
I don't understand why it's like that.
Noa.
Smash Master
We classify moves by their properties and attributes. And we do it to make sure everyone's on the same page when discussing a certain topic.
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