The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Coney]

why do people still think ddd is better than olimar

SPOILERS

Spoiler

he's not

 

[YagamiLight]

Yoshi and Wolf in the same tier is awkward D:

If it makes you feel better, consider Wolf, Sonic, Ike and Zelda/Sheik to be their own little sub tier in between E and D that's not quite good enough to be like Donkey Kong but a bit better than Pokemon Trainer and Ness. Yoshi barely made it into mid tier but I feel like he deserves it.

Also I stand by my placement of Captain Falcon and Bowser as bottom material. Lucas, Mario and Samus are close but even I can see that fundamentally those 3 are more solid than Bowser and Captain Falcon.

Also Niddo I think you are the only guy placing Ike below PT and Ness at this point.

 

[Meru.]

I think I've made a significant improvement to Shaya's list.


TOP
S

HIGH
A ( ) ( )
B

Middle
C
D
E :shiek:

Low
F
G

Bottom
H

I almost fully agree with this list ;o. IMO Olimar > Dedede though, and Zelda is still way too low. She shouldnt have dropped 9 spots >_> Im also a bit sceptical on Sonic, but I guess he has good results, so I cant really blame him :l.

I can live easily live with this anyway.

 

[lordhelmet]

CF and Bowser bottom tier?

LMFAO!!!!! Please tell me you're not in the BBR.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I would actually place Ike below Sonic and place Wolf above him as well. Otherwise, I pretty much agree, at first seeing Zelda made me go O_O, but then i sw you had her paired with Sheik.
Mario should be in mid tier, he really isn't so bad that he should be in low tier.
Bowser should move up.

To be honest, I see a massive mid tier, and asmall bottom and low tier.

 

[Flayl]

I don't understand how you could possibly put Bowser, Ganondorf and Jigglypuff in the same tier. One of these things is not like the others?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Also Niddo I think you are the only guy placing Ike below PT and Ness at this point.

I stand by my opinion that it would be too big of a jump. It also looks like Yoshi is most likely going to end up one spot below Ike. Do you think he should be above them as well? You have to consider all of these things.

 

[lordhelmet]

Flayl I don't think it's worth posting here. We got some crazy-bad '08/'09 mindset on some of these low tier characters.

 

[Flayl]

Actually, '08 mindset was to put Bowser in mid tier for no reason, lol. A lot of people are going overboard with how low he should go.

 

[Cassius.]

I still think Shaya's list is fine, I feel like Yoshi could go above Bowser maybe, but his list was fine.

What the **** at people putting Bowser in bottom tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zelda is bad and is about where she should be. She is linear as get-out and has no options. The only way she wins a match-up is if her bizarre bases like her weight and very one-dimensional moveset "out-gaw" the opposing character.

 

[Xyro77]

I just wanna say that in the next tier list. Ike should move up to mid while bowser should move down low.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

My opinion

TOP
S

HIGH
A ( ) [it's pretty hard to distinguish them on their qualities at this point] ( ) [Wario's had a lot of advancements recently... I think he should only be going up]
B [Dedede still the best you noobs, you just doesn't know]

Middle
C
D [maybe fox in C]
E :shiek:

Low
F
G

No, King Dedede is not very good. GaW belongs in mid tier. ZSS is better than both of them.

Fox definitely in C.

ICs should probably not be in A.

Link is not bottom tier... again.

Otherwise this is great.

 

[YagamiLight]

I don't understand how you could possibly put Bowser, Ganondorf and Jigglypuff in the same tier. One of these things is not like the others?

Keep in mind that they are on opposite sides of the same tier. I mentioned that order is more important than tier placement. If I could assign point values to each of the characters I would make Bowser something like 1.7, CF like 1.65 and have Ganon at 1.05 and Jigglypuff at 1. I hope that conveys what I think about them in relation to each other.

I stand by my opinion that it would be too big of a jump. It also looks like Yoshi is most likely going to end up one spot below Ike. Do you think he should be above them as well? You have to consider all of these things.

You don't have to guess at Yoshi's placement or anything in relation to Ike. It's pretty simple to see that Ike is being placed above Ness and PT by like everyone and how Yoshi fares is really irrelevant. You also have really strange definitions if +4 is 'too big of a jump'.

Flayl I don't think it's worth posting here. We got some crazy-bad '08/'09 mindset on some of these low tier characters.

"I don't like the fact that you think my character is terrible so I am going to call your mindset outdated."

Somebody has to be near the bottom. It's not Link, it's not Zelda (who, by virtue of Sheik, is much higher) and it's not Mario/Lucas/Samus. Guess who is left?

 

[DMG]

Ganondorf

is the worst character in the game

 

[the king of murder]

Somebody has to be near the bottom. It's not Link, it's not Zelda (who, by virtue of Sheik, is much higher) and it's not Mario/Lucas/Samus. Guess who is left?

 

[lordhelmet]

It SHOULD go something like this:

Low:

Yoshi
Lucas
Falcon
Mario
Samus
Zelda (does not include Sheik fyi)
Jiggz

Bottom:

Link (yes Link is that bad)
Ganon

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why are people still putting Link in the same tier as Ganon

 

[llamapaste]

Link art thou bad.

 

[the king of murder]

I agree that Link is underrated. Ganon deserves his own tier, isolated by everyone. He absolutely cannot do anything to the charas above him. At least the others are good at what they are doing.

 

[Espy Rose]

@SMfP: Because you're trying to put G&W in Mid Tier.

 

[Blissard]

Probably because a seperate tier for Ganon would just look pretty stupid. Besides, Ganon

Spoiler

sucks balls

isn't THAT bad, and there's simply a lesser crowd of good Ganon players than there are of good Link players.

 

[-LzR-]

Let me see... Jigglypuff is bad, nerfed like **** from melee. She still is better than Ganondorf, by far. Ganondorf's whole moveset can be avoided on reaction and he is pretty much weak to everything there is. Jigglypuff, she also has these strong kill moves that are also hard to hit with, no difference.
I think I prefer a great recovery and crap weight that heavy and no recovery.
Ganon has no mobility, Jiggz has the 2nd best aerial speed in the game, but not as much airmobility, but still is a strong point of her game. Jigglypuff doesn't get ***** by everyone, but still has bad matchups.

This is entirely about comparing Ganon and Jigglypuff. It's in my opinion stupid to even consider putting Jiggz as the worst character in the game. She is garbage, but Ganon is waste.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@SMfP: Because you're trying to put G&W in Mid Tier.

GW is mid tier, although high mid tier, and isn't much better (and might be worse) than Peach. And lol at anyone still placing GW above ZSS/Lucario.

 

[Espy Rose]

UTD Zac.
GG.
CP?

 

[the king of murder]

Let's face it, he is not just horrible. He is the worst character in Smash history, having no winnable MU with three being 0:100. He is slow, he is gimped easily by almost everyone, can't pressure the opponent, can't utilize his killing power, has a horrible recovery ect..
That's why he deserves his own tier. No character is as horrible as him. (Also Ganondorf being in G-tier is cool. Fear mah Ganon-tier.)


If he had better grab range, he wouldn't be so garbage.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

UTD Zac.
GG.
CP?

X.
GG.
CP?

And yet, Sonic is not high tier.

I can say the same garbage.

 

[smashkng]

You can't avoid Ganon's entire moveset on reaction lol. Not his tilts, jab, grab or 3 of his aerials. However I do agree that he has the worst frame data, simply because he has no ground move faster than his terribly ranged 7 frame grab, and then his 8 frame jab as 2nd.

 

[YagamiLight]

Let me see... Jigglypuff is bad, nerfed like **** from melee. She still is better than Ganondorf, by far. Ganondorf's whole moveset can be avoided on reaction and he is pretty much weak to everything there is. Jigglypuff, she also has these strong kill moves that are also hard to hit with, no difference.
I think I prefer a great recovery and crap weight that heavy and no recovery.
Ganon has no mobility, Jiggz has the 2nd best aerial speed in the game, but not as much airmobility, but still is a strong point of her game. Jigglypuff doesn't get ***** by everyone, but still has bad matchups.

This is entirely about comparing Ganon and Jigglypuff. It's in my opinion stupid to even consider putting Jiggz as the worst character in the game. She is garbage, but Ganon is waste.

I'm going to make this fast and painless.

"Ganondorf's whole moveset can be avoided on reaction":

Jab, Grab, Nair, Uair. Next.

"Jigglypuff, she also has these strong kill moves that are also hard to hit with, no difference."

There IS a difference. Jigglypuff's best kill move relies on being on top of the opponent, said opponent sucking at SDI and EVEN THEN the trip chance might screw you over. And if you miss you lose a stock. Don't say 'no difference' if you don't actually see the difference. Ganondorf hits like a bus full of fat people.

"I think I prefer a great recovery and crap weight that heavy and no recovery."

I respect your preferences. However you have made it abundantly clear that you prefer Jigglypuff and as such you OBVIOUSLY are going to side with her weight and recovery versus Ganon's.

"Ganon has no mobility, Jiggz has the 2nd best aerial speed in the game, but not as much airmobility, but still is a strong point of her game."

Jigglypuff has no kill power, Ganondorf has the 2nd strongest attacks in the game but not as much attack speed, but it's still a strong point of his game.

I can do this alllllll niggggghhhhhtttt looooooonnnnggggg.

"Jigglypuff doesn't get ***** by everyone, but still has bad matchups."

K?


Your whole argument is personal preferences and obvious facts. "Jigglypuff is fast in the air...I like that." You are also clouded by some bizarre desire to not have to admit that Jigglypuff and Ganondorf are in the same category of trash. Jigglypuff has one thing going for her. She is pathetic and definitely a candidate for the spot of "worst character in the game."

Plus her tournament results are dead last but I won't list that as a point since it's probably too easy for you to BS your way around.

 

[Coney]

ddd is worse than olimar, but might be better than pikachu.

ddd is certainly better than zero suit.

my gut says g&w is high tier, but only if the high tier is pretty big, and only at the bottom

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ddd is worse than olimar, but might be better than pikachu.

ddd is certainly better than zero suit.

my gut says g&w is high tier, but only if the high tier is pretty big, and only at the bottom

What recent (read: relevant) results lead you to believe Dedede as a better solo character than ZSS?

 

[Kitamerby]

Let's face it, he is not just horrible. He is the worst character in Smash history, having no winnable MU with three being 0:100. He is slow, he is gimped easily by almost everyone, can't pressure the opponent, can't utilize his killing power, has a horrible recovery ect..

Melee Kirby was worse.

He didn't even have kill power to avoid.

 

[The Truth!]

I dont think olimar and pikachu should be separated, though most people seem to represent that. Putting one above the other seems a matter of opinion, and putting DDD below or above seems ok, but between them doesnt seem right. I think DDD is below both though.

Im not sure about ZSS, shes hard to place. I could see her above DDD for the reason SFP mentioned, but it seems like she might need to be consistent just a little bit longer for that.

 

[Purple]

What recent (read: relevant) results lead you to believe Dedede as a better solo character than ZSS?

dunno, but the fact that ZSS : MK is 50:50 in people's minds, and that MU (MK : d3) is horrid for D3. That fact alone makes ZSS a more viable character.

 

[Purple]

UTD Zac.
GG.
CP?

X.
GG.
CP?

And yet, Sonic is not high tier.

I can say the same garbage.

stop using -players who are skilled- for why a character might be higher. The players are just skilled -___-

 

[Kinzer]

stop using -players who are skilled- for why a character might be higher. The players are just skilled -___-

Using people as an outlier is not entirely bad.

It's when that's the only person who is setting the example and the next best character champion is a distant second when something becomes fishy.

VV This too.

 

[bigman40]

stop using -players who are skilled- for why a character might be higher. The players are just skilled -___-

 

[ShadowLink84]

stop using -players who are skilled- for why a character might be higher. The players are just skilled -___-

I now recognize where your avatar is from and thus have started shaking my head.

 

[Purple]

I now recognize where your avatar is from and thus have started shaking my head.

You recognized it?

Hypocrite eh?


But back on the outlier conversation, all it really shows is that with skill, the 'player of the character' can overcome the weaknesses of the character; should that really change how the character works? Skilled Luigi mains can beat skilled MK mains, but does that make the Luigi matchup against MK better for Luigi? No, that matchup's hard as balls still, infact it's unchanged. It's just the fact that the -player- was skilled.

The reason I don't particularly like the outlier discussion is...

1) Not every character has an exceptional player, so while characters like ZSS, Ike and Sonic are getting light, there are other character who have potential however don't have the players that are needed to show it (because god knows this community runs off of tourney results).

2) Tournament results really don't show an accurate tier list-- I still whole-heartedly believe that. While it shows an accurate decree of who's good and who's horrible, we already have a basic idea of that.

 

[-LzR-]

Let's have it this way, Jigglypuff has winnable matchups.