The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Orion*]

??
Sonic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioUt7qjfh6Y&feature=related


Wario is superior in terms of aerial mobility.
Vertical air movement is great but, this is also why Fox has issues being above people.
Shine stalling can only do so much.

And Fox flies through the air with the greatest of ease?

Uh, no.
You're grossly overrating Fox's mobility considering there are characters who beat him out in those aspects like wario and Sonic.

this isn't to say he doesn't have good mobility, but you are certainly exaggerating.
Let alone listing his pros mean nothing.
What about his cons?

And no, wolf isn't at all arguably low tier. You are surely trolling if you suggest such a thing

you made a post i like.... its a miracle!

but yeah wolf cant be low tier LOL character would be very tournament viable if it werent for a few Near unwinnable matchups.

 

[ShadowLink84]

you made a post i like.... its a miracle!

I viewed your post for once.
My god the apocalypse is near.

but yeah wolf cant be low tier LOL character would be very tournament viable if it werent for a few Near unwinnable matchups.

Correct, its a similar issue for Fox.
how many fox's actually get close to winning a tournament?
Its those few really bad amtchups that ruin their viability.

 

[The Truth!]

??
Sonic?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioUt7qjfh6Y&feature=related

In running speed? Sonic wins. Everything else? Fox.

Wario is superior in terms of aerial mobility.
Vertical air movement is great but, this is also why Fox has issues being above people.
Shine stalling can only do so much.

Overall yes. Wario's horizontal mobility is as ridiculous as Fox's verticle, and his vertical is average like fox's horizontal. However horizontal mobility is arguably much more useful.

Also Ive not seen fox's competent with both their shine stalling and verticle air movement have issues above opponents. If anything they are good at taking advantage in such positions.

Uh, no.
You're grossly overrating Fox's mobility considering there are characters who beat him out in those aspects like wario and Sonic.

I dont think its much of an exaggeration at all. Let's assume sonic does have better ground mobility. So hes first in ground mobility, then falls to middle of the pack or worse in all other categories. Wario has great horizontal mobility, then also falls to middle of the back or worse in others. Im assuming since you brought them up you agree that both of these characters have great mobility.

Fox meanwhile has the best vertical aerial movement, the second best ground movement, and only falls to middle of the pack in terms of his horizontal aerial movement (which his side b is good at negating, but thats a bit of a digression...). If wario and sonic have great mobility Im not sure what word describes fox's.

this isn't to say he doesn't have good mobility, but you are certainly exaggerating.
Let alone listing his pros mean nothing.
What about his cons?

And no, wolf isn't at all arguably low tier. You are surely trolling if you suggest such a thing

Lol, I sort of was trolling about wolf. But a lot of people cry when you try to pull fox ahead without wolf. Wolf might be one or two places away from where he belongs, but Fox seems like one or two tiers.

The post was mainly to point out his amazing mobility, but as far as cons go he doesnt have much outside the cons falco has to deal with. I guess lacking certain things falco does have could be considered a con, but he has the pros elsewhere to pick up a decent portion of the slack.

 

[ShadowLink84]

In running speed? Sonic wins. Everything else? Fox.

Congratulations you have better walking speed.

high run speed means a better dash shield grab since it improves the range of your grab and also negates the push of your opponents attack.

Sonic also has better aerial speed amd mobility via spinshotting, which means getting pressured by marth isn't as bad.
Fox has poor horizontal movement, and it also makes many of his approaches dedicated.
Which means your margin of error is very low. Its great for laser camping, which is really good, but having a good walking speed isn't as great as you want to makeit seem.

Overall yes. Wario's horizontal mobility is as ridiculous as Fox's verticle, and his vertical is average like fox's horizontal. However horizontal mobility is arguably much more useful.

It IS more useful, and you prety much agreed with me.
Fox's vertical movement is good in that he can get to the ground quickly where he sets up to his deadly Usmash.
Problem is this means he has dedicated approaches which means he is easier to predict when he is forced onto the offensive. Which isn't often due to laser camping but when it does occur, its an issue.

Also Ive not seen fox's competent with both their shine stalling and verticle air movement have issues above opponents. If anything they are good at taking advantage in such positions.

*jumps up and Uair's you repeatedly*
Hmm?
Shine stalling is a mindgame. it isn't doing anythin than slowing his decent.
The best solution? Either jump up after him if you have a good Uair or, simply wait. Where is fox going to go?
If he used his second jump?

I dont think its much of an exaggeration at all. Let's assume sonic does have better ground mobility.

He DOES have better ground mobility.
It is why Fox can't camp Sonic conventionally.

So hes first in ground mobility, then falls to middle of the pack or worse in all other categories.

Aerial speed. Sonic is top 5.
Aerial mobility? He is in the bottom 5. Which doesn't matter since Sonic hs his side B as an option, like spinshotting,a llowing him to move faster than even yoshi and jiggly in the air before Dairing to the ground just as fast as FOx can get to the ground.

So let's see, Fox has good walking speed. That is it.
Then he has poor horizontal speed.
Falco has his Side B for when he gets pressured by marth and MK, which is also invincible first half.
Fox isn't.

In melee, Fox had the tools to avoid being dedicate din such a manner. He had L canceling,h e had his jump canceled shine, he had wavedashing, int his game he does not have ANY of it.
Wario has great horizontal mobility, then also falls to middle of the back or worse in others.

Fox meanwhile has the best vertical aerial movement, the second best ground movement, and only falls to middle of the pack in terms of his horizontal aerial movement (which his side b is good at negating, but thats a bit of a digression...). If wario and sonic have great mobility Im not sure what word describes fox's.

Second best ground movement?
Where did you get this idea? Purely due to walk/run speed?
Falcon and Sonic are higher by a noticeable margin.
Falcon also falls faster and has higher aerial speed than Fox.
Sonic has is methods as I listed.

Fox isn't as great as you make him out to be.
he is good, but his vertical fall speed really hurts when coupled with his poor aerial movement.
Side B isn't good at negating it unless you have a platform directly under you to ensure the opponent cannot punish you, and even then his Side B is slower than Falco's in start up.

Lol, I sort of was trolling about wolf. But a lot of people cry when you try to pull fox ahead without wolf. Wolf might be one or two places away from where he belongs, but Fox seems like one or two tiers.

The post was mainly to point out his amazing mobility, but as far as cons go he doesnt have much outside the cons falco has to deal with. I guess lacking certain things falco does have could be considered a con, but he has the pros elsewhere to pick up a decent portion of the slack.

Fox sucks.
Yes he has potential, the isue though is his really, really bad matchups. They do hurt his viability immensely., Fox would be high tier if he wasnt screwed over so BADLY.
HIs killing power is great, his Usmash is very quick too,
But his dedicated approaches and his ******** fall speed and poor aerial mobility is what hurts him, and are the primary reason he has those terrible matchups.
Camping can only do so much when you lack what Falco has as a side B.

 

[The Truth!]

So after typing my response, I get the feeling you missed my first post on the subject a page or two back. Id recommend reading it and going to the link Im going to add to it.

Congratulations you have better walking speed.

high run speed means a better dash shield grab since it improves the range of your grab and also negates the push of your opponents attack.

Sonic also has better aerial speed amd mobility via spinshotting, which means getting pressured by marth isn't as bad.
Fox has poor horizontal movement, and it also makes many of his approaches dedicated.
Which means your margin of error is very low. Its great for laser camping, which is really good, but having a good walking speed isn't as great as you want to makeit seem.

1)I wasnt referring to just his walk speed. Some comparisons
Top Walk Speed:
2. Fox (1.45)
3. Sonic (1.40)

Dash/Foxtrot Speed
1. Fox (2.10)
14. Sonic (1.50)

Running Speed
1. Sonic (3.50)
3. Fox (2.08)

Also you seem to exaggerate what a great asset Fox's running speed as its not as good as sonics. Im not comparing Fox's ground mobility to sonics, Im comparing his total mobility to the rest of the casts. Fox and Sonic both excel on the ground, at worst Fox is slightly below sonic, however Fox also excels in other areas as well.

2)Since when is a low margin of error a consideration for top level play?

3)If youre going to bring up spinshot than Im going to bring up illusion. While maybe a worthwhile discussion lets not overbranch this. As it stands sonics aerial acceleration is half that of fox's, and fox's is already just mediocre.

It IS more useful, and you prety much agreed with me.
Fox's vertical movement is good in that he can get to the ground quickly where he sets up to his deadly Usmash.
Problem is this means he has dedicated approaches which means he is easier to predict when he is forced onto the offensive. Which isn't often due to laser camping but when it does occur, its an issue.

Yes I agreed (vertical movement for everyone is naturally more limited). In the air this does make his approaches more dedicated than someone like wario. But Fox's mobility isnt limited there (re: his amazing ground mobility). Also opponents have more to worry about than usmash, and vertical movement works both ways.

*jumps up and Uair's you repeatedly*
Hmm?
Shine stalling is a mindgame. it isn't doing anythin than slowing his decent.
The best solution? Either jump up after him if you have a good Uair or, simply wait. Where is fox going to go?
If he used his second jump?

Opponent on the ground? Illusion gives you options. In the air? Smartly using shine and his verticle speed. Opponents cant hover in the air forever. Though as you said waiting on the ground is the better option. Not that I disagree that it is a weakness, but its not overbearing as you make it sound and its not something other high tiers are unfamiliar with.

[/quote]He DOES have better ground mobility.
It is why Fox can't camp Sonic conventionally.[/quote]
That's a limited view of ground mobility. But I dont really feel like arguing the point since its not important.

Aerial speed. Sonic is top 5.
Aerial mobility? He is in the bottom 5. Which doesn't matter since Sonic hs his side B as an option, like spinshotting,a llowing him to move faster than even yoshi and jiggly in the air before Dairing to the ground just as fast as FOx can get to the ground.

Unless you want to include his up b, sonics vertical air speed is middle of the pack (10th in acceleration, 14th in normal fall, 14th in fast fall).

So let's see, Fox has good walking speed. That is it.
Then he has poor horizontal speed.
Falco has his Side B for when he gets pressured by marth and MK, which is also invincible first half.
Fox isn't.

1)Uh, he has a good almost everything. At worst he has average horizontal air speed. Regardless of being invincible in the first half or not its still great tool in addition to his overall ground mobility.

Second best ground movement?
Where did you get this idea? Purely due to walk/run speed?
Falcon and Sonic are higher by a noticeable margin.
Falcon also falls faster and has higher aerial speed than Fox.
Sonic has is methods as I listed.

This is where I realized you probably missed my other post. Id recommend reading it. Falcons vertical and horizontal also are not better than Fox's.

Fox isn't as great as you make him out to be.
he is good, but his vertical fall speed really hurts when coupled with his poor aerial movement.
Side B isn't good at negating it unless you have a platform directly under you to ensure the opponent cannot punish you, and even then his Side B is slower than Falco's in start up.

Yes, but most stages that dont have platforms cater to foxs great ground game. Pretty flexible.

Fox sucks.
Yes he has potential, the isue though is his really, really bad matchups. They do hurt his viability immensely., Fox would be high tier if he wasnt screwed over so BADLY.
HIs killing power is great, his Usmash is very quick too,
But his dedicated approaches and his ******** fall speed and poor aerial mobility is what hurts him, and are the primary reason he has those terrible matchups.
Camping can only do so much when you lack what Falco has as a side B.

Everything else was covered, but the bad matchups part I dont understand quite as well. Doesnt Falco have similarly bad mus? Maybe theyre slightly less worse, but its almost negligible.

 

[Shaya]

My opinion

TOP
S

HIGH
A ( ) [it's pretty hard to distinguish them on their qualities at this point] ( ) [Wario's had a lot of advancements recently... I think he should only be going up]
B [Dedede still the best you noobs, you just doesn't know]

Middle
C
D [maybe fox in C]
E :shiek:

Low
F
G

 

[DMG]

Fox is a bad character. Who cares.

He has bad matchups across the board, he isn't flexible CP wise compared to some of those just a bit ahead of him, and his only calling card is Usmash.

 

[Zero]

ZSS above Olimar, Pikachu and Lucario :3

 

[Browny]

bah shaya... I have to agree with you (mostly)

Pika doesnt deserve to be there though imo and the idea of link being in the same tier as ganon is laughable to say the least lol

 

[Zero]

Should split F tier into two so we can get HYRULE tier

 

[Laem]

Shaya knows whats up.

 

[Shaya]

I'm kinda like "F could be split up.." but its not exactly too large.

I kinda think samus and jiggs could join G.

 

[The Truth!]

Glad someone else thinks ICs are a step below the rest of A.

Pika, Oli, and ZSS for the good part of B tier

DDD, Lucario, and GW for the gimmicky but still good part of B tier.

Any order within those two sets, but the two sets are pretty distinct imo. Although ZSS should probably be below Pika and Oli for now. I like mid and low tier, though I would def put fox in C.

 

[DMG]

ZSS is pretty Gimmicky lol.

 

[The Truth!]

I always wonder about that. Nicks current success with ZSS might be over influencing me, I guess I could see her with DDD/Lucario/GW. At least pika and oli I see above the rest of B but not exactly A.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

ZSS is pretty Gimmicky lol.

Look here at Snake. Random tilts that make no sense in the hitboxs, projectiles coming out the whazoo, horrible aerials that pack a punch, can Dthrow tech everyone, and weighs more than bowser (exaggeration).

Gimmicky made 2nd best. Gimmicky could go quiet far.

 

[YagamiLight]

Stealing Shaya's formatting because I can.

TOP
SRank

HIGH
ARank
BRank

Middle
CRank
DRank |+:shiek:|
ERank

Low
FRank
GRank

This list probably looks really radical but trust me when I say that I looked at this list several times before posting and this is probably as true to (what I consider to be) my unbiased opinion as I can make it.

Order matters more than the rank the character is in (for example: Ike is much closer to Sonic than he is to Pit on this list) so don't get all super angry that Wario is in Brank. In Wario's case he is "Top of BRank, which happens to be worse than Olimar but better than Dedede).

 

[Justblaze647]

Starting now, Yagami Light is now my favorite poster on SWF

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Wow, that actually makes sense. What are the chances people will say shiek and zelda should be conbined as one?

And stealing Shaya's format lol Me and Shaya both stole that from the front of the OP.

 

[DMG]

That would be fine, except for the fact that Wario is better than Olimar.

 

[Yikarur]

That would be fine, except for the fact that Wario is better than Olimar.

hell no, look at Wolfs placing D:

 

[-LzR-]

Please provide me how a character with so much potential is last on the tier list. Jigglypuff is 4th worst at minimum. Her attributes are way above bottom tiers.

 

[The Truth!]

lol, crazy list. Ganon not the worst? Ike shouldnt be D. But Sonic probably should be. Bleh, too much weird stuff.

 

[Justblaze647]

Please provide me how a character with so much potential is last on the tier list. Jigglypuff is 4th worst at minimum. Her attributes are way above bottom tiers.

Insert char here has potential and will go up.

Doesn't this sound even a little contradictory to you?

Like, at all?

 

[Shaya]

And stealing Shaya's format lol Me and Shaya both stole that from the front of the OP.

you know I made that format in the op right?
and I am the original poster? lol

 

[Kinzer]

Look here at Snake. Random tilts that make no sense in the hitboxs, projectiles coming out the whazoo, horrible aerials that pack a punch, can Dthrow tech everyone, and weighs more than bowser (exaggeration).

Gimmicky made 2nd best. Gimmicky could go quiet far.

I really hope you were serious when you said you made all those exaggerations to be funny. Because...

That same gimmick is having people question whether or not Diddy/Falco should surpass him.

Also what you pointed out isn't a gimmick, he's a design flaw.

Want a gimmick?

The players falling for these "gimmicks."

His tilts are good and a lot of other noteworthy stats and attacks, but unlike Meta Knight they are somewhat easier to foresee. Only reason he isn't in the same tier as Meta Knight is because he possesses nowhere near the abundance of options as Meta Knight has in his arsenal, and few of them that result in the same punishing degree to begin with.

People will eventually figure out these kinds of strategic play and will thus make things harder for the players on the delivering end.

...God I can't remember the last time I went in-depth to try to explain my thoughts about this kind of thing. I only remember that I got a headache from it, and I'll probably regret this point after I wake up from sleeping. -_-

 

[Orion*]

Look here at Snake. Random tilts that make no sense in the hitboxs, projectiles coming out the whazoo, horrible aerials that pack a punch, can Dthrow tech everyone, and weighs more than bowser (exaggeration).

Gimmicky made 2nd best. Gimmicky could go quiet far.

now i know to ignore anything you say because youre actually ********. post was to honest to be trolling LMAO

 

[Shaya]

Hey Kinzer, your post was like 8 seconds of reading... Don't stress the small stuff.

 

[Kinzer]

Hey Kinzer, your post was like 8 seconds of reading... Don't stress the small stuff.

I can't help it though, internet has no tone of voice, and I like to take note of every fine detail so I'm sure of the conclusions I draw from them gruioghuipghuiehruiohtesp.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Oh my
Shaya's list is actually spot on imo

I hope the next tier list turns out like that

 

[C~Dog]

I think I've made a significant improvement to Shaya's list.


TOP
S

HIGH
A ( ) ( )
B

Middle
C
D
E :shiek:

Low
F
G

Bottom
H

 

[Shaya]

Actually considering ness and bowser tied this tier list I should have ( ) around them... looks pretty shmick

*edits*

TIER LIST IS UPDATED *****ES.

 

[Poltergust]

...Except Yoshi shouldn't be that low. >_>

Or at least I doubt he's going to be after the BBR discussion about him. Putting him behind PT or Ness sounds about right to me.

...For now.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

you know I made that format in the op right?
and I am the original poster? lol

My mistake

now i know to ignore anything you say because youre actually ********. post was to honest to be trolling LMAO

-overally paranoid response-

Wow people. Sarcasim really does fail online, espically when you take everything to the extreme.

 

[YagamiLight]

Starting now, Yagami Light is now my favorite poster on SWF

<3

Please provide me how a character with so much potential is last on the tier list. Jigglypuff is 4th worst at minimum. Her attributes are way above bottom tiers.

I've explained this to you before. I won't be doing it again.

Her attributes are no better than Ganondorf's, but I'm not starting this conversation again.

lol, crazy list. Ganon not the worst? Ike shouldnt be D. But Sonic probably should be. Bleh, too much weird stuff.

It's radical, no doubt.

Sonic, Ike, Zelda / Sheik and Wolf are all very close at this point in time and, to a degree, ranking them is really matter of opinion. It all depends on how you value the abilities of each of the characters. For me, it's Zelda / Sheik, then Ike, then Sonic and finally Wolf. I didn't assign point values but if I had to it'd be something like Z/S is worth 4 points (arbitrary), Ike is 3.92, Sonic is 3.85 and Wolf is 3.83. Very minor differences.

...Except Yoshi shouldn't be that low. >_>

Or at least I doubt he's going to be after the BBR discussion about him. Putting him behind PT or Ness sounds about right to me.

...For now.

My list is the only one to put Yoshi where he belongs.

Believe it.

 

[bigman40]

Light honestly is the only one correct in terms of mid & low tier placings (most of them anyways). Good job Light. Very solid list, but what's your reasoning for Jiggs?

 

[YagamiLight]

Light honestly is the only one correct in terms of mid & low tier placings (most of them anyways). Good job Light. Very solid list, but what's your reasoning for Jiggs?

Thank you.

Deciding to place Jigglypuff below Ganon was one of the main reasons I kept hesitating before posting my list. I kept weighing their respective advantages and disadvantages and kept coming to the conclusion that they really have one thing going for them (air mobility vs power) as everything else somewhat 'cancels out' in my eyes; essentially Ganon having a trash recovery but good weight / fall speed didn't really seem better or worse than Jigglypuff having trash survivability but a good recovery. Match-up wise I am fairly certain (without maining either character) that they both get demolished by several good characters.

Eventually I just shook my head and said that as tournament results place Ganon a few spots above Jigglypuff, even if bottom tier results are very shaky, that is significant proof that Ganondorf deserves to be at least a spot above Jigglypuff. Both of the characters have several glaring flaws that are exploited easily by good characters and I knew that anything I said in favor of Ganon always had a polar opposite on Jigglypuff's side. In the end I decided to just use tournament results as a tiebreaker, I suppose.

It's not the best reasoning but I don't think I could do better if I sat down and thought about it for days, haha.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, seeing as I didn't get panned for my low tiers, I'm going to see what the reaction is to my current full list. Just a note: I really do find the high tiers much more boring to work with, so I feel that I'm a bit less accurate in placing them. I just don't care enough to give them as much thought basically. >_>

S:
A:
B:
C:
D: :shiek:
E:
F:
G:

Notes: C/D tier area in particular is a mess. A lot of characters seem higher than they should be, but I do feel that ROB, DK, and Pit all need to fall. I feel the same way about Kirby, but yet in the end he ends up being plus 1. Go figure. Number wise, Kirby feels to high, but I can't rationalize him being below Peach or Pit. And then there is Peach, where I feel like she's a tad too high, but I can't rationalize her being below Pit or ROB.

I still have this as my tier list. >_> Might switch G&W and ZSS in the future though.

 

[Yikarur]

Light honestly is the only one correct in terms of mid & low tier placings (most of them anyways). Good job Light. Very solid list, but what's your reasoning for Jiggs?

Yoshi and Wolf in the same tier is awkward D:

 

[lordhelmet]

Falcon is top of low tier. He's fuzzy around Lucas/Bowser/Yoshi. I'd say Bowser borderline mid and Falcon under Lucas and/or Yoshi.

Wherever you guys want to put him, he is definitely better than Mario.