The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[humble]

Ike is in no way, shape or form worse than Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, Wolf or Sonic.

Putting him a tier below them considering recent events seems like a mistake to me. All Ike did in humble's list was move above characters that either should never have been above him (Bowser) or characters who probably didn't deserve to move above him in v4 (Ness, Lucas [not hating on them, but did they have anything to show that they are better than Ike?]).

Personally I don't know about Wolf and Sheik, I kept them where they were because I didn't feel that I knew them well enough to adjust their position, but I don't doubt that both Sonic and PT are better then Ike. I'd be willing to move Ike up and Wolf down though.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Condensed Version (My tier list)
Tier 1: Metaknight, Snake, Diddy Kong
Tier 2: Wario, Falco, King Dedede, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Marth, Olimar
Tier 3: Mr. G&W, Zero Suit Samus, Pit, Lucario, R.O.B., Toon Link, Kirby, Donkey Kong
Tier 4: Luigi, Squirtle, Peach, Fox, Wolf, Shiek/Zelda, Shiek, Ness, Lucas, Sonic, Yoshi
Tier 5: Ike, Pokemon Trainer, Mario, Charizard, Bowser, Zelda, Samus, Jigglypuff, Ivysaur
Tier 6: Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf, Popo

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm a little interested in Ike now after the performance that San played with at Apex. However, that is only one placing with one person. He beats ultimaterazer, gnes, bloodcross, yet lost to Doom and atomsk.

Either way, I think it's more proof to the calling that you can win with anyone if you play well enough. And maybe get a good bracket. Ganon to win the next national tourney.

 

[DMG]

No. No.

Ike is a bad character.

Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, Wolf or Sonic.

PT it's arguable, doesn't matter since they are both bad. Shiek is DEFINITELY better than Ike. Like no doubt about that. Ftilt locks alone make her pretty solid compared to Ike. He wishes he had some nonsense like that. Wolf IDK he has some pretty bad matchups due to CG's/Weight, but he has better fighting tools than Ike. Sonic is pretty bad, but his defense is pretty annoying.

 

[Magik0722]

ike > PT by alot

 

[Meru.]

You know guys.

Lets discuss Pit, because I'm really sick of people placing him too high.

I'll start by saying that ZSS, TL, Kirby, ROB, Donkey, Peach and Fox all > Pit.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ike could jump ten spots and I'd be fully justified, IMO. It's a pretty grave error that he's low tier, considering he's been out-placing Peach at large tournaments (another character I think should go up a lot) for some time now.

Ike is the opposite of Snake right now. He's a character that should perform very poorly and does on paper, but in practice and in reality can do very well. There are a ton of characters like this in Brawl: Sonic, ZSS, Ike, Ness, and others. Maybe we should consider that we're looking at the wrong factors when theorycrafting...

You know guys.

Lets discuss Pit, because I'm really sick of people placing him too high.

I'll start by saying that ZSS, TL, Kirby, ROB, Donkey, Peach and Fox all > Pit.

I used to think Pit was really good, and played him a lot attempting to zero in on what makes him so mediocre. I still think he's no better or worse than a lot of characters in B or C tier, but I don't think he's much better than that, and it's because his attacks all have such high start-up and low range. Every hit he does in melee range totally relies on a read; his moves are too slow to have any frame-trap qualities for instance (something that has become a pretty big deal in high-end Brawl and part of the reason I think certain low-tier characters are now performing so well). Pit's baiting abilities are limited outside of WoI tricksies and so outside of arrow camping he sort of has to commit. His move set is seemingly limited to chip damage on hard reads, otherwise... if his aerials were like, 2-3 frames faster, he'd be significantly stronger.

I still believe his arrows are among the best projectiles in the game, and his uair is one of the top platform pokes in Smash. Despite cynicism, his recovery is pretty flexible and strong, but not unbeatable. He'll always have some small degree of success based on that.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, though.

 

[Purple]

Dmg, what exactly is 'bad' to you?

 

[DMG]

No. The theory crafting is generally right (the kind that is reasonable, not some perfect metagame BS). Ike has some clearly abuseable flaws. How can he win? People do their own thing instead of focusing on abusing the flaws.

Same thing with Luigi, Ness, etc. Characters below G&W are borderline viable, and below Kirby you delve into the realm of "Well you aren't supposed to win, but psh our community not that gay when it comes to CPing so they can do well sometimes".

 

[Teh Future]

then again DMG theorycrafts that planking is broken when no one has won a game by abusing it so basically nothing he says matters ever mirite

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

UTDZac's GaW just won a large regional by abusing planking. It's worth noting that GaW's planking is largely considered to be "beatable" based on frame data analysis, but I guess his opponent(s) were unable to capitalize.

 

[Purple]

Well DMG is right about one thing, our community doesn't, as a whole, play according to how the matchup should be played. Can you really dig into the future in order to base off a matchup? I could say every MU against MK is wrong because the MK isn't planking like he should, but if no one planks, then the MU ratio is flawed. The Match-Ups should display how the current Metagame is being played.


@Teh Future - Most people don't practice planking. They just walk into a match expecting it to work; hence why it doesn't. It's like using D3 against DK immediately just because you think the MU is that dirt easy when it isn't.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well DMG is right about one thing, our community doesn't, as a whole, play according to how the matchup should be played. Can you really dig into the future in order to base off a matchup? I could say every MU against MK is wrong because the MK isn't planking like he should, but if no one planks, then the MU ratio is flawed.

It's impractical to discuss match-ups using the BBR's ruleset, because most serious tournaments enact ledge regulations now. What good is a discussion going to do if it says "MK is going to plank, and you will lose" when you arrive at a tournament with a LGL of 25? Heh.

 

[YagamiLight]

No. No.

Ike is a bad character.

Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, Wolf or Sonic.

PT it's arguable, doesn't matter since they are both bad. Shiek is DEFINITELY better than Ike. Like no doubt about that. Ftilt locks alone make her pretty solid compared to Ike. He wishes he had some nonsense like that. Wolf IDK he has some pretty bad matchups due to CG's/Weight, but he has better fighting tools than Ike. Sonic is pretty bad, but his defense is pretty annoying.

You didn't give me too much to argue against. Obviously if a character is in that general are of the tier list they probably aren't top **** material...

Sheik is worse than Ike solely based on the fact that Pikachu and the Ice Climbers are unwinnable match-ups for her. It doesn't matter if she can beat Fox and Ganondorf easily (as fond as I am of Fox, he's low-B tier at best) if she can't stand up to more common tournament threats. Ike gets **** on pretty badly by MK (prolly 35:65) but it's nowhere near what Sheik experiences versus the ICs and Pikachu.

You were pretty hazy about what you thought of Ike versus the rest of E tier but I'll just reiterate that Ike is not worse than any of them (at the VERY LEAST, not bad enough to be a tier below them [I won't get upset if Sonic or whoever ends up a spot above Ike, haha]).

Ike is the opposite of Snake right now. He's a character that should perform very poorly and does on paper, but in practice and in reality can do very well. There are a ton of characters like this in Brawl: Sonic, ZSS, Ike, Ness, and others. Maybe we should consider that we're looking at the wrong factors when theorycrafting...

Community opinions on Ike and Snake have pretty much remained unchanged from like April 2008. Despite all evidence to the contrary, may I add.

Anyway there's a lot of characters who should technically be shut down very fast in some sort of perfect play metagame. ZSS should never be able to penetrate good shield defense due to her awful grab (16 frames, wasn't it? Not too sure, sorry!), Fox should never land the predictable Up Smash and should probably meet a bogus match-up halfway through the bracket, Ike shouldn't be landing any non-jab move and Sonic's opponents just shouldn't fall for his nonsense.

But this game is over 2 years old. You don't see any of this happening. And it never will. Theorycrafting is flawed in the sense that it goes from realistic (example: Ike should not land an Fsmash unless the opponent makes a grave mistake) to ridiculous (example: In a match between high ranking players, all of Ike's non-jab moves should be powershielded on reaction and his jab should be SDIed without fail...on the first frame 3 hit).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Community opinions on Ike and Snake have pretty much remained unchanged from like April 2008. Despite all evidence to the contrary, may I add.

Anyway there's a lot of characters who should technically be shut down very fast in some sort of perfect play metagame. ZSS should never be able to penetrate good shield defense due to her awful grab (16 frames, wasn't it? Not too sure, sorry!), Fox should never land the predictable Up Smash and should probably meet a bogus match-up halfway through the bracket, Ike shouldn't be landing any non-jab move and Sonic's opponents just shouldn't fall for his nonsense.

But this game is over 2 years old. You don't see any of this happening. And it never will. Theorycrafting is flawed in the sense that it goes from realistic (example: Ike should not land an Fsmash unless the opponent makes a grave mistake) to ridiculous (example: In a match between high ranking players, all of Ike's non-jab moves should be powershielded on reaction and his jab should be SDIed without fail...on the first frame 3 hit).

Ike lands fsmash on a hard read, just like many characters land slower moves.

Brawl is a read-based fighting game. There's little hitstun. You can airdodge anything. Picking the character that lives the longest and hits the hardest, and fastest without getting chaingrabbed by anyone was only going to last so long. That era is over. Characters with strong air games to assist in frame traps and baiting, characters with strong punish games, characters that rely on things other than gimmicks and bad DI are the future.

 

[Magik0722]

ike can also hit people with fsmash on a character that has upB penalty

in fact both squirtles and charizard upB penalty is so bad that the amount of lag on it is just barely below the time it takes to fsmash them

 

[DMG]

then again DMG theorycrafts that planking is broken when no one has won a game by abusing it so basically nothing he says matters ever mirite

Lol. So there has nothing to do with the fact that LGL's hinder the ability to plank well? I mean I could say "Well they said IDC is broken, but I mean no one has won a game by abusing it" despite how clearly broken THAT is. Cmon now, your trolling has started to slip recently.

UTDZac's GaW just won a large regional by abusing planking. It's worth noting that GaW's planking is largely considered to be "beatable" based on frame data analysis, but I guess his opponent(s) were unable to capitalize.

I don't wanna get into this. Yes he planked but it's a long story. Much easier if you were there.

Short points:

1. Wasn't a larger regional. It had a bunch of entrants because it was a convention tournament at Quake Con. We had a cap and met it. Over half the people who entered we might never hear from again lol.

2. There was some pretty big sandbagging going on here, as it was a free entry tournament. There were prizes, but no cost to play.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't wanna get into this. Yes he planked but it's a long story. Much easier if you were there.

Short points:

1. Wasn't a larger regional. It had a bunch of entrants because it was a convention tournament at Quake Con. We had a cap and met it. Over half the people who entered we might never hear from again lol.

2. There was some pretty big sandbagging going on here, as it was a free entry tournament. There were prizes, but no cost to play.

I was actually hoping someone would explain that. It seemed weird to me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike is in no way, shape or form worse than Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, Wolf or Sonic.

I think Ike should still be below PT, Sheik, Wolf, and Sonic. It would be hasty to jump him ahead of all of them right now. All of those characters still have overall better results last time I checked. He should be right beside Ness, either before or after Ness is fine. Much more than that, and you'll be doing what happened with Pit.

Lucas being head of Ike was just plain old stupid though. There should be a common sense check before releasing the tier list, screw what the ignorant people vote. If they are stupid enough to suggest Ike should be second worse, throw out their entire list of votes for the tier list. It's obvious they don't have a clue about the metagame outside of a very select few characters and their opinions are irrelevant. Allowing that kind of stupidity to be counted as idiotic as allowing somebody who doesn't think MK is the best to have their votes counted.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Community opinions on Ike and Snake have pretty much remained unchanged from like April 2008. Despite all evidence to the contrary, may I add.

Anyway there's a lot of characters who should technically be shut down very fast in some sort of perfect play metagame. ZSS should never be able to penetrate good shield defense due to her awful grab (16 frames, wasn't it? Not too sure, sorry!), Fox should never land the predictable Up Smash and should probably meet a bogus match-up halfway through the bracket, Ike shouldn't be landing any non-jab move and Sonic's opponents just shouldn't fall for his nonsense.

But this game is over 2 years old. You don't see any of this happening. And it never will. Theorycrafting is flawed in the sense that it goes from realistic (example: Ike should not land an Fsmash unless the opponent makes a grave mistake) to ridiculous (example: In a match between high ranking players, all of Ike's non-jab moves should be powershielded on reaction and his jab should be SDIed without fail...on the first frame 3 hit).

I can see someone playing almost theorycraft perfect. However, it requires a skill level and experience far beyond what the average player can dish out. There are some 40 different character movesets created with around 20 or so stages to play on. The time needed to practice every single scenario to near perfection would be enoumous. Then, you would need the skill to be able to make the right decision in those scenario on a whim and perform the action correctly time and time again. With this in mind, it's no surprise that people make mistakes and what should be avoided on paper is not in reality.

Brawl has only been out for 2 years. The first few months hundreds spend the time trying to figure out who to main. Many actually choose many characters. This we know is bad because you cannot master two characters nearly as quickly as you can one. Once those few months went by and people stuck to only one or two, they started training strictly with that character. Not only this, but the metagames of many characters were evolving every couple of months in the first year.

Since 2 years ago, the metagame for characters has been slowing down if not completely stopped for a few of them all together. With many players sticking to only a couple of people and the metagame of each character dying down, I think it's only around now that people can actually start perfecting those match-ups that we have theorycrafted for so long. However, it will be a lengthy process and it won't be for a few more years before some of those match-ups get ironed out completely. The people of today are still learning, and as time goes on, people will keep getting better and better. What seems difficult to do all the time now will probably become fairly routine as time goes on.

 

[UberMario]

Bit late but:

The best thing I like about this list (besides the extreme bias towards Mario which, may I add, is a common trait of all these silly Mario users)

Mario is seriously underrated, he can hold his own against plenty of the middle tier characters, it's just he's underrep'd.

is that this list is stupid enough to place Ganondorf above Ike.

You would have to be legally blind to, after having played this game for at least 20 minutes, not realize that Ike is pretty much an upgraded version of Ganondorf. Excluding the fact that Ike's jab is a better character than everyone in low tier, it baffles me as to how you could possibly come to the conclusion that Ike and Ganondorf are anywhere near each other on the tier list (much less actually put Ike below Ganondorf).

Like I've said, I really feel Ike is a terrible character, I've yet to play one that has seriously given me trouble.

I could let a drugged, senile baboon play this game and I'm certain that even it could tell that Ike is: faster (air movement, walk, initial dash, full run), has a ground game (jab), a huge disjoint, better range, better priority, a recovery that isn't countered by BEING HIT BY IT

You mean like Ike's side B? You don't even need to actually be hit by that, airdodging through it's path is enough to stop it, and is it really a counter in Ganon's case if you lose a stock aswell? >_> The only way I could see it as such is if you have port priority or are a stock ahead . . . . .

and is stronger as well (I could probably let the druggy baboon slide if he didn't figure out this last point). The only things that Ganon can even claim to have over Ike are (bad) air grabs, slightly higher weight (at the expense of a bigger frame) and the fact that his throws do more damage (disregarding the fact that Ganon has the worst grab range in the game and that Ike has throw combos).

Ganon is stronger IMO, but they both hit hard, also, I feel Ganons aerials are slightly better, though on the ground the battle is clearly in Ike's favor.

My mind is blown by the sheer stupidity of the statement that Ike is worse than Ganondorf.

You said it once, what was the point in saying it again?

There was clearly a lot of hope involved.

The ones that truly stand out:


Olimar... Brood is a good case for Olimar's rise by himself
Kirby? His air game is very good, capable of WOPs at times, and most of the abilities he gains from higher tier characters give him some of their best attacks, such as Mach Tornado, Grenades, Lasers, Shield Breaker, etc.
Wario? While his aerial game is second only to Meta's [counting off stage antics], but his lack of a projectile and/or ground speed kind of hurts him in my eyes, like I said a few posts back I probably put him lower than I intended to, but I still think he's below at least ZSS
Mario?!?!?!? Like I've said in the past, Mario is extremely underrated, call it bias if you want, that's just how I feel, he has a momentum "stall", a jab lock, a method to move rapidly horizontally in mid-air, a small chain grab game on heavier characters, a recovery that can stage spike, a special that can stop Fox/Falco/Wolf's recovery (and a small bit of super armor), another special that can gimp like crazy, good aerials, a good projectile game (that can also counter planking due to the angle it falls at), a good ledge game, etc.
Lucario? To be honest I'm not sure why he's that high to begin with (other than his side b, roll, and down aerial), most of his attacks are average and his recovery is not exactly amazing . . .
Pit? I only moved him down one spot, was it that big of a deal that you can't see it happening?
Yoshi?!?! Mid-air jump is not gimpable unless the user air dodges or attacks while doing it. He also has a reliable chain grab/grab game, Yoshi's grab outprioritizes Mach Tornado and several other recovery moves, and his Up special is very underrated, while it doesn't gain that much vertical height, it can be used as many times as you want and retains the momentum he had before the attack (with a slight upward boost), allowing the character to stall in the air for a bit or move quickly to the left or right through it.
Toon Link? I have a similar stance with Lucario as I do with Toon Link, though in TL's case the only thing I find to be noticably good are his down aerial and ground speed, otherwise he feels a little too average to be as high as he is now.
Wolf? I only moved him two spots from where is at currently . . . . 20th isn't really that unreasonable, he was there on the 2nd version of the list.
Peach?!?!?! While not really a stat that proves it, she was around there in the 1st list, she's well rounded, but there's just something about her that feels like she's ALMOST reached near her maximum potential, similar to how Meta is pretty close to that, with Diddy catching up on him due to the oil well of potential that the peels give him.
Ness?! This is actually higher than he was on last year's tier list, the jump he made in between then and v4 was way too high. imo
Lucas? Only one spot higher than what he is currently . . . . pretty much everything about him, except his throws, are better than Ness, most notably his recovery (especially when you consider the Zap Jump tech, which gives him the 2nd best, if not the best mid-air jump of all the characters when done correctly.)
Captain Falcon?!?!? Good aerial game, two recoveries that can either spike or stage spike, a grab game with chain grabs, well rounded smashes, good speed, and a moderately reliable low-mid percent finisher, he's not really as terrible as most people make him out to be, even though he's still ridiculously nerfed compared to his two former appearances.
Ike?!?!? See my response to the other post

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Can we all just agree the above poster does not understand the game at all and his laughable tier list doesn't need further commentary?

 

[Purple]

^ I'm down with that.


But really, when you point to a single player to why a character should be better, you already have a horrible argument.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

lol using the "he's just underrep'd" as an excuse to hugely boost a character. Like I've never heard that one before.

News flash for ya: tournament results matter a lot at this point. Mario has crap tournament results, thus crap position on tier list.

Here is what people need to understand: if your character has poor tournament results they will never move up like they "deserve" (huge emphasize on quotation marks) until they get better tournament results. If that never happens: tough. Suck it up and go play in more tournaments.

 

[YagamiLight]

I think Ike should still be below PT, Sheik, Wolf, and Sonic. It would be hasty to jump him ahead of all of them right now. All of those characters still have overall better results last time I checked. He should be right beside Ness, either before or after Ness is fine. Much more than that, and you'll be doing what happened with Pit.

Sonic is the only character that it would be hasty to put below Ike. At the mid-low area of the tier list, you have to ask: How do they place at nationals? Regular tourneys are just popularity contests (Ike is good in that area, no doubt) but at nationals you really see the truth. Like, I see _X_'s Sonic beating M2K on RC, I see San getting 9th at multiple nationals. I DON'T see Sheik doing anything close to that.

Mario is seriously underrated, he can hold his own against plenty of the middle tier characters, it's just he's underrep'd.

You're just going to keep on saying he's underrepresented until the end of time aren't you?


Like I've said, I really feel Ike is a terrible character, I've yet to play one that has seriously given me trouble.

I have yet to play a good Toon Link but you certainly don't see me claiming that he is terrible. If faced with a matter that I have no experience in the I take the CORRECT ROUTE and SAY NOTHING.


You mean like Ike's side B? You don't even need to actually be hit by that, airdodging through it's path is enough to stop it, and is it really a counter in Ganon's case if you lose a stock aswell? >_> The only way I could see it as such is if you have port priority or are a stock ahead . . . . .

No, I mean like Ganondorf's Up B. lrn2ganon: Pick Falco. Jump into Dark Dive at 80% or so. Mash the Cstick Downwards. Easiest kill ever?

Ganon is stronger IMO, but they both hit hard, also, I feel Ganons aerials are slightly better, though on the ground the battle is clearly in Ike's favor.

I'm in no mood to do a side by side comparison of all of Ike's moves versus Ganon's but it's pretty obvious that Ganondorf is only stronger for a few select moves, everything else is on Ike's side. That's not the point, though.

You said it once, what was the point in saying it again?

I will say it a third time:

Seeing Ike placed below Ganondorf on any tier list makes me want to chew my own neck off. Or rather, since my neck is valuable, it makes me want to magically compel other people to chew their own necks off via the internet.

You also didn't actually refute any of my points except for that one bit where you indirectly said that your argument holds credibility since you've never played a good Ike user. Which, while it didn't refute anything, made me smile.

This 'debate' is ridiculous. Your arguments all hinge on inexperience. It's like me saying a bullet won't kill me because I haven't been shot before. It makes me want to take my previously mentioned druggy baboon and throw him into the nearest wall. But I won't do this because I value my druggy, senile baboon's brain cells too much to deplete them because of this argument.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm bored so....
This is how I can see a couple of the changes happening.

TOP
S
HIGH
A
B
Middle
C
D :shiek:
E
Low
F
G

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sonic is the only character that it would be hasty to put below Ike. At the mid-low area of the tier list, you have to ask: How do they place at nationals? Regular tourneys are just popularity contests (Ike is good in that area, no doubt) but at nationals you really see the truth. Like, I see _X_'s Sonic beating M2K on RC, I see San getting 9th at multiple nationals. I DON'T see Sheik doing anything close to that.

Obviously, Sharky/Shaky/w/e did well at that one MLG, beating San in placement by one. PT still has Reflex's results, though they seem to be dying down a bit. Wolf and Sheik I have to agree that no, I haven't heard of them doing well at nationals. I'd still see it being too hasty though. If by Tier List V6 this is still the case then yes, Ike should be above them. Until then, it's too recent to tell.

@Xey: Bowser too high. It's obvious that he's going to move down.

 

[YagamiLight]

Obviously, Sharky/Shaky/w/e did well at that one MLG, beating San in placement by one. PT still has Reflex's results, though they seem to be dying down a bit. Wolf and Sheik I have to agree that no, I haven't heard of them doing well at nationals. I'd still see it being too hasty though. If by Tier List V6 this is still the case then yes, Ike should be above them. Until then, it's too recent to tell.

@Xey: Bowser too high. It's obvious that he's going to move down.

I don't think it's hasty at all considering that before v4 came out Ike had similarly good 'important' tournament rankings and overall tournament results. Giving Ike a +10 bump then may have been Pit-level hasty. But now? After some more nationals and no shows by the other characters? At this point I won't call it hasty at all to just place Ike at the top of E tier or at the bottom of D tier. He, in my honest opinion, deserves it. No other character below high tier has this sort of national representation. You know that. I know that. You know that I know that you know that.

 

[humble]

Speaking of perfect play in theory, I still think if there ever was a Ganon main who mastered the >B reads (it's guaranteed on the majority of the cast if you have good enough reactions off your read) then Ganon would achieve the IC state of a stock off a read, which I could see significantly boosting his potential.

Seriously, why hasn't anyone gotten on that?

 

[stingers]

because its easier to single nanner lock then that, and diddy doesnt totally suck like ganon

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There is the issue in landing the Side B in the first place...

And I'm still not buying it Light. :/ We'll see what the BBR thinks soon enough though, they should put up that topic today on the Ike boards.

 

[humble]

because its easier to single nanner lock then that, and diddy doesnt totally suck like ganon

Someone needs to sit down and just spend hours training their reaction speed and studying the animation tells, until they can do the locks.

BTW light, in the Character Ranking thread, Ike's results are behind PT, Sonic, Sheik, and Wolf. Do work son.

 

[Orion*]

falco and diddy are both better than snake, char is dropping now.

i personally have him tied at 4/5 with ics

 

[Nidtendofreak]

lol no.

10lolnos.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm bored so....
This is how I can see a couple of the changes happening.

TOP
S
HIGH
A
B
Middle
C
D :shiek:
E
Low
F
G

It's almost like you didn't even touch low tier.

 

[Spelt]

ice climbers aren't even A Tier because swordgard lost to inui

 

[stingers]

ike climbers are top tier because san beat gnes

 

[Orion*]

i feel partially responsible for that

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Someone needs to sit down and just spend hours training their reaction speed and studying the animation tells, until they can do the locks.

BTW light, in the Character Ranking thread, Ike's results are behind PT, Sonic, Sheik, and Wolf. Do work son.

Tournament results anything below S-B tiers I find rather unreliable as a source of determining placement. They have far too many match-ups that are ill favored against them. A single good placement from a character could be based off of a good bracket, or a lack of counters. There are many characters in the top tier even that place well despite having hard counters, however, many are eliminated by competition. Olimar could give Snake a run for his money as much as DDD does, but they both have hard counters as well that eliminate them.

Also, many characters are rare picks. Falco gets by with having two known hard counters in the form of pikachu and ICs. However, both are rare and might easily get elimnated from the tournaments. It's more so true for the lower tiers when their hard counters are either absent or more popular which effect results. The top tier is far less likely to get screwed over by the randomness of tournaments because they function very well alone as is.

 

[Spelt]

ike climbers are top tier because san beat gnes

oh and this.


btw totally sigging this