The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Toesrus]

Nobody will ever know the limits of their character. A minor thing such as a high-placing low-tier character in a national can be enough to get more people playing that character, which will probably make that character's metagame advance. In my eyes, there are some characters such as Link that have potential to rise but never will because they are written off as bad, which in turn turns him off to other players, which in turn makes his metagame advance slowly, which then keeps him low-tier. Why does Ally do good with Captain Falcon? He is a good player who chose to try a low-tier. We need more people to do stuff like this.

My opinion.

 

[Purple]

If the outliers never used their characters, the characters would not be used to their full potential, thus their tier-list rankings would not be as high... which is kinda what I said.

San andI did well at MLG Columbus, and people thought they our characters should move higher. San and I continued to do well, and it was said that Ike and ZSS should STILL move up... because of the outliers.

Hmm, I wonder why people say the outliers should count when it's something impressive, but when other people argue about it they change their minds...

Because fact is, you're still one player doing well. No one else can recreate your success it seems.

Malcolm then.

or perhaps Shugo.

To a lesser extent, even Espy.

How many players do you need to pop up before you realize that this might not have all been a coincidence that so many good players have started off with this character? :x

...huh? That's a situation of multiple players showing skill. I'm talking about a -singular- player playing one character. Okay, I was wrong about Sonic, but you're taking things out of context.

 

[Purple]

Yeah, but a player still is confined to the limits of the character. So the character's limitation is the final line to cross. A player can be as good as he or she wants, but if the character itself doesn't have the capacity to be nearly as good, you won't see that kind of success.

A character can have the tools to succeed without being completely shut down. That's what mid-tier is; they have the tools, however it takes more skill to be successful with them. All of them have tools to being good, it's just that top-tier is -really- good.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If the outliers never used their characters, the characters would not be used to their full potential, thus their tier-list rankings would not be as high... which is kinda what I said.

um.
No.
Good characters are good and would stand out anyway.
MK would stil be the best.
So would Snake, yes outliers provide an indication, but they are not DIRECT EVIDENCE of character capability.
Otherwise, we should boost Captain Falcon just because of Ally's performance which is terrible .

San andI did well at MLG Columbus, and people thought they our characters should move higher. San and I continued to do well, and it was said that Ike and ZSS should STILL move up... because of the outliers.

Hmm, I wonder why people say the outliers should count when it's something impressive, but when other people argue about it they change their minds...

People are stupid.

 

[The Truth!]

This isnt a fair analysis though since smash doesnt exactly have many people playing it, you cant expect there to be 2 or more top players of most characters. But what about characters like Diddy, Lucario, IC's, Wario who you could take your pick to remove an outlier and the character would still be considered as good as it was before. It may not prove that the character is better but it certainly has FAR less doubt than if you considered a certain character to be much better than currently though based off 1 players ability.

I dont think thats true for almost all of the characters mentioned. If you removed the outlier for any of those they most certainly would not be considered as good as they are, and if theyd never existed would likely have hampered their success. I believe this happened with Wario, whose outlier was removed and consequently did take a hit.

However Lucario, DDD, GW and a few others might be an exception because while there are certainly a few great lucario players, there has not been an excellent (in terms of overall performance, not against their peers) player as there has been with the other characters youd mentioned. So removing one does not make a huge difference. But then you get into a fuzzy definition of what 'good' is.

Not to say that it's soley based on outlier. But it certainly has a decent impact if indirectly.

 

[-LzR-]

That Ganondorf example is wrong, if the MU was even unrealistically possible, it would 95-5, but it's 100-0 and it's hopeless. It's not the **** grab, it's blizzard, Ganon can't do anything about it and the timer ends and Ganon loses. Simple stuff.

 

[Spelt]

aerial wiz kick beats blizzard, and separates ice climbers.

 

[Browny]

truth youre missing my point...

Its all about what involves the least amount of guesswork.

If someone like lee never played Lucario, I can feel very confident in saying that Lucario would still be where he is now if not 1-2 places lower due to the sheer amount of high-level players consistantly taking names all over the place.. However if you removed things like san for ike and n1ck for ZSS, what are you left with? Is there enough evidence out there, enough players consistantly beating pros with those characters such that they deserve to be in a high position? I dont think so.

Its next to impossible to figure out just how much a character is limiting a top player when you see them place well because theres too many factors, it is much more easier to look at multiple examples of the same thing happening and take a guess from there as to how much the character is holding the players back. You truly can not create a tier list where extreme outliers take precedence over solid trends.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Browny, if you remove Nick, all you're really left with are the high-tier level results from Dazwa, WarpStatus, Shlike, etc. from the last year instead of the top tier-like results ZSS has amassed via Nick.

Oh noes!

 

[Nefarious B]

Couple things:

1. You guys aren't taking character difficulty into account. ZSS is largely considered one of the hardest characters to learn, because she's weird as ****. It would take longer, then, for people to learn how to play her well enough to place well.

2. If your argument is that outliers just happen to spring up because good players choose certain characters, why hasn't DDD had an outlier? EVERYONE has tried out DDD, because he's easy to be okay at. Many people even go about learning him decently well so they can whip him out as a **** secondary. With all these people trying out the character, why no outlier?

3. It's like certain people are comparing Ike and ZSS to the top tiers, saying they should have multiple people representing them at a high level. This is a low tier and mid tier character we're talking about. Stop comparing apples to oranges and look at the characters around them and decide which is better, because right now the standards for moving up are stupidly high.

 

[Browny]

.....

This whole time ive been thinking ZSS was one below lucario, not having G&W, TL and Pit between her and B tier >_<

Yeah ok lol, my high standards were because I think she needed a lot more to get above luc/pika/oli but if +3 puts her below them all still, well thats fine.

dammit lol

As for the difficulty in playing her though thats completely open to interpretation. A common argument is that she is hard to play well, to utilise all her moves correctly etc. To this I ask, what is your definition of playing well? Does it have any relation to the ability to win? If someone like Yoshi is very hard to play well (which he is) yet cant place highly at all, how can you determine how much of this is a result of the players inability to use him to maximum effectiveness or the pure limitations of the character?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Browny, a better way of saying what Nefarious meant is that she's unconventional. Her playstyle isn't really very inviting and learning her involves re-learning the game, basically. Why re-invent the wheel when you can just play any other character who has a regular dsmash, grab, fsmash, etc?

 

[DMG]

Its more like the standards for moving down are pretty low. Most people talk about the potential of characters to drop more than of rising. Just the overall mentality of "Anyone else besides top tiers are bad".
And part of it is true. A lot of characters have nowhere to go but down, with the people who rise up usually because you need someone to occupy the now empty spot.


Condensed Version:
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake (Nowhere but down), Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers (nowhere but down), Marth, Wario
B: King Dedede (nowhere but down), Pikachu (nowhere but down), Olimar (nowhere but down, Lucario (ditto), Mr. Game & Watch (ditto)
C: Pit (ditto), Toon Link , Zero Suit Samus, Kirby (nowhere but down), R.O.B.
D: Donkey Kong (nowhere but down), Peach, Fox, Luigi, Wolf
E: Sheik, Pokémon Trainer, Sonic, Ness, Bowser
F: Lucas, Ike, Yoshi, Mario, Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff
G: Zelda, Link, Ganondorf

There is little potential for most characters out there to go up anything more than a spot that isn't related to being bumped because of other cast members being placed below you. The members in the A tier will always be there, and will probably just shuffle a few minor spots with each other. Like Snake maybe dropping down, Wario going back up, Marth over IC's, etc. IC's have the most downside obv.

Then below that, B tier is pretty much set in stone unless you expand what qualifies as B tier. Dedede certainly will never rise to A tier, and there is good reason to think Olimar and Pika might be better than him at least matchup wise. On the same token, Pikachu and Olimar will also never make it into A tier, so the only place they could move is down. Most likely they will be the top of that tier, with either Dedede/Lucario behind them, and G&W at the same spot.

G&W definitely has nowhere to go but down. The only character I could see ahead of him though would be ZSS. I don't think Pit or TL have enough in them to really go above the simple but powerful stuff G&W has. Pit probably isn't going up, same with TL. Yes they have potential, but they aren't as good as those above them. Then you get into Kirby and ROB, two characters almost certainly worse than those ahead of them. No gain expected for them either.

Then you have DK. Where should he go? Realistically probably lower because of Dedede. Even without Dedede in the picture, his viability is shaky at best in Brawl. His matchup spread certainly isn't anything amazing. He has better tools than most of the people below him, but he also has much bigger weaknesses. I think the negatives outweigh the positives for DK, no chance he's going up. Peach is in a similar boat; she has potential but do you really think she is better than, say TL or Kirby? I could see her going above DK and ROB at best, with that kind of move being a stretch. Past that point, you delve into champs with multiple ridiculous matchups that frankly shouldn't be viable competitively, but manage to squeak in every so often. The Fox's and Luigi's and what not. Everyone at this point is kinda like A tier; minor shuffling of positions here and there. No one would really move up, just people moving around depending on who you think is worse in each case.

Then you get into low tier.

At this point in Brawl's lifetime, I honestly think MOST tier spots are played out fairly accurately; I do not think there is a single character on this tier list that is a full tier too high or too low (meaning ZSS/TL for example might go from mid/top of C tier to Bot of D tier, but not to the middle of D tier. Or Pit might drop but not all the way to the end of his tier/into the next one). I think that is pretty good to have achieved that. Most shifts that would occur would be opinions on metagame shifts where our analysis of a character's traits isn't changed, but certain things might be seen as more valuable than before, or not as important as before making a few shifts occur. I don't see any cases of a character drastically rising or falling coming up anytime soon.

 

[The Truth!]

^Melee players used to say everything about brawl was discovered a week after it came out. I know a lot of people have the opinion you just gave, but I would disagree.

truth youre missing my point...

Its all about what involves the least amount of guesswork.

If someone like lee never played Lucario, I can feel very confident in saying that Lucario would still be where he is now if not 1-2 places lower due to the sheer amount of high-level players consistantly taking names all over the place.. However if you removed things like san for ike and n1ck for ZSS, what are you left with? Is there enough evidence out there, enough players consistantly beating pros with those characters such that they deserve to be in a high position? I dont think so.

Its next to impossible to figure out just how much a character is limiting a top player when you see them place well because theres too many factors, it is much more easier to look at multiple examples of the same thing happening and take a guess from there as to how much the character is holding the players back. You truly can not create a tier list where extreme outliers take precedence over solid trends.

I understood the point, however my point was that basically all the best characters have that one person who performs well above the rest of their peers. Two at most. You have to move down to DDD/Lucario/GW to find a level group of people at the top of their characters game. Rather than viewing this as having several outstanding players, I think its more accurately viewed as having a lack of an outstanding player and several great ones. If you take away those outstanding players from the others you still have a solid character, but its false to say that it doesnt harm them to remove the outlier, or conversly that outliers should not (and have not) affected placement.

Also I dont see why it matters how an outlier would perform with another character, and its certainly not hard to see how theyre limited. The limitations are built into how well they perform with the character theyre using already. If they place well they obviously are not limited to below that placing (as well as the opposite).

 

[Purple]

A good thing you guys should start doing is stop putting every character on a pedestal like metaknight. :| Other than MK, each character has flaws that take getting used to, that take time to get good with.


Nefarious B - You said ZSS is one of the hardest characters to learn, but i mean, you're playing brawl dude, **** doesn't get much harder to pick up and learn.

 

[Nefarious B]

Nefarious B - You said ZSS is one of the hardest characters to learn, but i mean, you're playing brawl dude, **** doesn't get much harder to pick up and learn.

You obviously haven't tried to learn her then

 

[Purple]

You obviously haven't tried to learn her then

What makes her harder than say, Peach?

 

[Meru.]

What makes her harder than say, Peach?

She might not be harder than Peach, but that still doesnt mean that she doesnt have a steep learning curve herself.

 

[Purple]

That's not exactly the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that the game isn't as hard as we let it off to learn. I main peach, who is either equal in learning curve or above to ZSS, however it really didn't take too long to learn her. Granted she has a higher learning curve than everyone else, but does that make her 'hard' to learn?

There's a difference between being 'harder' to learn, or 'hard' to learn.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I play Peach and ZSS and main them both. Dark.Pch is also a regular practice partner of mine. Maybe I can explain.

Peach is hard to learn technically, but her move-set is pretty intuitive and has a lot of "dial-a-combo" elements, especially at low percents when everything strings together without much effort at all. Peach also has to juggle a lot of various concepts like cycling her fsmash to make sure the wrong one doesn't come out (which I still forget to do a lot), keeping her kill moves (which are her best spacing and damage-building moves) fresh at high percents so she can kill at a decent time, etc. Peach also can NOT let up on attempting to read her opponent's responses to her moves. Peach is frankly mentally exhausting to play and play against.

ZSS is not difficult in the same way, she's just not intuitive. Her moveset is frankly bizarre and serves an entirely different purpose than most of the rest of the cast. Her shorthop sucks for approaches. A lot of concepts like camping and approaching are worthless to ZSS who doesn't really do either. She can't directly counter shields by grabbing so she has to rely on dodgy shield pressure techniques. She doesn't have the same tools a lot of other characters do so she deals with certain situations in different (but perfectly functional) ways. ZSS is a tough character to transition to if you're familiar with the Smash series. She almost belongs in a different game. To top that off, ZSS does have major technical challenges to overcome, although she is not as difficult in that way as Peach or Yoshi.

That's what Nefarious meant, I'd guess.

 

[Purple]

Okay, so ZSS is harder from a mental standpoint, which is something you definitely have to condition into. I really do find it hard to believe that she's that bizarre that most if not all you've learned about smash goes out the window with her, but I'll believe you since you know more about ZSS than I.

 

[Raziek]

Unless I'm missing something, isn't learning curve not a factor in a Tier list?

I was under the impression that we consider the player to be fully familiar with their character. This doesn't mean that every ZSS plays like NickRiddle, but it should mean that the difficulty in learning a character is not a factor.

 

[Purple]

Unless I'm missing something, isn't learning curve not a factor in a Tier list?

I was under the impression that we consider the player to be fully familiar with their character. This doesn't mean that every ZSS plays like NickRiddle, but it should mean that the difficulty in learning a character is not a factor.

That is true actually.

Kind of makes me feel silly for having this discussion in the first place.

I want to say we just went on a seperate tangent.

 

[Ripple]

TOP
S

HIGH
A ()
B ()

Middle
C
D :shiek:


Low
E
F
G ​

go crazy, its whatever.

 

[Purple]

Give reasons for why people are where they are THEN I will go nuts.

 

[phi1ny3]

TOP
S

HIGH
A ()
B ()

Middle
C
D :shiek:


Low
E
F
G ​

go crazy, its whatever.

I'm going to say that I find Lucario's position flattering, but probably too high for me at least. I think Pika and Oli switch places, and Pit possibly lowered (current metagame and rep is bad this time around, insert obligatory "you're not ready yet" pun) and possibly switched w/ peach, this looks pretty decent

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Difficulty matters indirectly, where a very difficult or weird character might have less players, especially very good ones. We were arguing results, which difficulty does affect.

 

[Purple]

difficulty matters when we use tournament results to make a tier list

-________________________________-

 

[Justblaze647]

Jiggs should be lower

 

[KillerJawz]

Samus went up.. I CANNOT ALLOW THIS >:[

 

[Deleted member]

Fox is where he should be. DK seems like he could be a little bit higher, though. Peach also should be bumped down.

I also think Lucas could just make it into mid, but that's just me.

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi being put behind Mario and Bowser? Ew... D:

Lucas is debatable, although Yoshi does have better tournament results than him (and Yoshi should be mid-tier anyways).

 

[Chuee]

Lucas is debatable, although Yoshi does have better tournament results than him (and Yoshi should be mid-tier anyways).

Cool, except only like 5 characters have worse tourny results than Lucas.

 

[Poltergust]

Apparently, only Jigglypuff has worse tournament results than Lucas. It's worse than I thought (considering that I don't think Lucas should be placing so low). O_O

So I guess this strengthens Yoshi's placement over Lucas.

 

[Johnny Citrus]

im guessing the new list is coming out soon since it's been over 6 months?


edit- this was probably asked before but not gonna read through 30 pages lol

 

[Z'zgashi]

My opinion (and i believe in zelda+sheik together):

S Tier


A Tier


B Tier


C Tier


D Tier


E Tier


F Tier


G Tier

 

[Deleted member]

@Johnny Citrus: It's coming out around the 20th, I believe.

 

[Justblaze647]

@ Z'zgashi - Why do you have Ike sooo low? I think he could jump up a whole tier from where you put him, and he's certainly not a LT character.

Also, Jiggs should be lower

And Falco is 3rd best; no matter what.

Aside from these things, I like this list.

 

[Kole]

Apparently, only Jigglypuff has worse tournament results than Lucas. It's worse than I thought (considering that I don't think Lucas should be placing so low). O_O

So I guess this strengthens Yoshi's placement over Lucas.

TBH you shouldn't base your knowledge of tournament results off of Ankoku's unupdated list.

Lucas's rep is really increasing steadily at the moment, with mainly 5 top Lucas mains (Pink Fresh, Mekos, Galeon, Nasty, FAE) placing decently

 

[vVv Rapture]

My opinion (and i believe in zelda+sheik together):

S Tier


A Tier


B Tier


C Tier


D Tier


E Tier


F Tier


G Tier

Why is Zelda all the way up in E tier and not in the kitchen?