The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[#HBC | J]

mhm it is nice we are getting some
rep finally <3

but yea Ankoku's thread hasnt been updated recently sadly ;-;

 

[Justblaze647]

Why is Zelda all the way up in E tier and not in the kitchen?

She suddenly re-realized that she has a split personality.

 

[Kole]

why not make one just because

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E: :shiek:
F: / (tie)
G:

Why is Zelda all the way up in E tier and not in the kitchen?

LOL

 

[Spelt]

Also, Jiggs should be lower

your horrible bias against jigglypuff amuses me.
you've obviously never faced a good ganon because you have no idea how bad he really is.

Why is Zelda all the way up in E tier and not in the kitchen?

lololol sigged.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

My opinion (and i believe in zelda+sheik together):

S Tier


A Tier


B Tier


C Tier


D Tier


E Tier


F Tier


G Tier

Hmm. Zelda/Sheik is pretty good. Though they'll never be ranked together. Unfortunately.

I think Diddy Kong will go up in the next tier list. To second place.

Pit will move down.

Wario might move down.

Zelda could move up.

Lucas could move up.

Eh.

I want a new tier list.

Now.

 

[stingers]

ROB is moving way up.

 

[Spelt]

rob is joining the triforce of shame, actually.

it'll be called "Triforce of Shame + ROB"

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ROB is moving way up.

Hmm. I think its possible he might move up, but a few ROB mains think he's fine where he is. So I don't think he'll be moving way up.

imo anyway.

Edit:

rob is joining the triforce of shame, actually.

it'll be called "Triforce of Shame + ROB"

lol

He's the forth piece in the middle.

 

[-LzR-]

Rob might move about 2 spots, he deserves it. No one just knows about the tricks he has. Did you know he has an item projectile? I doubt it

 

[Z'zgashi]

I think rob is just fine where he is. I have a lot of experience on him (my brother plays him and my state has a pr'd rob) so he is probably my most played match up. Well other than meta knight

 

[Nefarious B]

Unless I'm missing something, isn't learning curve not a factor in a Tier list?

I was under the impression that we consider the player to be fully familiar with their character. This doesn't mean that every ZSS plays like NickRiddle, but it should mean that the difficulty in learning a character is not a factor.

Right. That's an argument for looking at the top of the metagame right? AKA the outliers or w/e term people use for good players.

But people will always call BS if there isn't more than one person replicating tourney results. I'm pointing out that in the real world, learning curve can explain why results aren't being replicated at the top level, even if they are consistently good at a high level. BTW, ZSS placed like a high tier character before Nick ****** MLG. She's hovered around 12-15 for pretty much the entire lifetime of brawl. His MLG performance is more akin to results we would expect from a top tier.

Which is why arguing that no other ZSSs placing as well as Nick as a reason that she shouldn't move up is so utterly ********. Do you really expect -two- players of a mid tier to place like a top tier? Dazwa placed very well before he stopped playing (which was relatively recently), you have 3 Texas ZSSs doing pretty well, as well as scattered results from others. Snakeee has been doing pretty well against recently as well.

 

[stingers]

I think rob is just fine where he is. I have a lot of experience on him (my brother plays him and my state has a pr'd rob) so he is probably my most played match up. Well other than meta knight

theres no way that ROB is fine where he is =[

 

[KuroganeHammer]

theres no way that ROB is fine where he is =[

Horrible shield, infinites, bad approaches, mediocre smash attacks and killing power, large character model, average staying power (14th iirc) with momentum cancelling.

I'm surprised he's not lower.

Got a good camp game though. And d-smash. And ftilt.

 

[stingers]

mediocre smashes but good dsmash, bad approaches but good ftilt?

zss can infinite ROB? sure; i've never even seen it happen in tournament, lol

-insert character- has bad attributes and should be lower.

 

[Inferno3044]

dunno, but the fact that ZSS : MK is 50:50 in people's minds, and that MU (MK : d3) is horrid for D3. That fact alone makes ZSS a more viable character.

I don't get the idea of being better at one significant MU makes one character more viable than another. I can say some idiotic logic saying that Mario > D3 because Mario can actually fight ICs, Pikachu, Falco, and Olimar.

Tier lists are supposed to represent characters played at the highest level in the metagame.
Outliers show the characters being played at the highest level in the metagame.

Just throwing this out there.

Although this statement is true, it can't fully be a reliable source especially if it's only basically 1 or 2 people really being the outlier. Taj is a godly Mewtwo but that doesn't mean he isn't a bottom 5 character in melee. If character's performance was considered the height of the metagame and related to the tier list, then we should just use Ankoku's list. I think that Ike and Sonic are very overrated because of San and X respectively.

 

[Poltergust]

TBH you shouldn't base your knowledge of tournament results off of Ankoku's unupdated list.

Lucas's rep is really increasing steadily at the moment, with mainly 5 top Lucas mains (Pink Fresh, Mekos, Galeon, Nasty, FAE) placing decently

Why isn't it being updated?

 

[-LzR-]

Rob doesn't get infinited, because getting a footstool is ****ing impossible. We can infinite Diddy, but Diddy still is awesome. Rob can kill at 100% with laser. He has crazy tilts and his usmash is strong and he can rack up damage with an uair which can do like 24% or so. He has all the new tricks so he is harder to juggle too and so on.

 

[DMG]

Put it like this:

How is Rob better than the people above him? It's not about what ROB has or what he can do, but whether he can actually do it better than those above him. Is he better than ZSS, TL, Pit, or G&W? Cause past that point on the tier list he is clearly worse than the others. He's not that bad, but he's not THAT good.

 

[Spelt]

footstooling is so underused.

 

[Nefarious B]

footstooling is hard to pull off... stool box is very small, you basically have to combo into it which is difficult since you have to then be above them afterward the hit to footstool... basically only possible with a weak uair like pika MK or ZSS

 

[Shaya]

what?
Footstool box is like easy to get.

 

[-LzR-]

Except your opponent won't let you jump over you like and idiot.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The problem is that an intelligent player will make sure they're in some sort of animation, preventing them from having to do the footstool tumble if they're footstooled. It's still a neat option, and I go for it with Squirtle a lot.

If yours is the sort of character that makes people airdodge a lot, it's not hard to chase and get it afterward.

 

[Nefarious B]

The cooldown of an airdodge counts as an animation right? It would be much easier if it didn't

 

[Raziek]

Right. That's an argument for looking at the top of the metagame right? AKA the outliers or w/e term people use for good players.

But people will always call BS if there isn't more than one person replicating tourney results. I'm pointing out that in the real world, learning curve can explain why results aren't being replicated at the top level, even if they are consistently good at a high level. BTW, ZSS placed like a high tier character before Nick ****** MLG. She's hovered around 12-15 for pretty much the entire lifetime of brawl. His MLG performance is more akin to results we would expect from a top tier.

Which is why arguing that no other ZSSs placing as well as Nick as a reason that she shouldn't move up is so utterly ********. Do you really expect -two- players of a mid tier to place like a top tier? Dazwa placed very well before he stopped playing (which was relatively recently), you have 3 Texas ZSSs doing pretty well, as well as scattered results from others. Snakeee has been doing pretty well against recently as well.

If ZSS has results that indicate she should be in her current spot, she should STAY in her current spot. That's the whole point of what we are trying to say here.

YES, we DO expect more than one person to place well with her, because that it was helps break down the outlier argument!

What you're arguing is much like arguing that Snake should still be second on the tier list, even though Ally is the only one getting results anywhere NEAR indicative of his position.

 

[Nefarious B]

No actually. She has results to back up -atleast- her current placing. I said anywhere from 12-15, right now she is 15th which is the end of her tournament results spectrum. Really good placings should be enough for us to look at the higher end of her usual results spectrum.

I'm not sure if you missed it, but people are saying she should move up to 11th-12th. That would have been a reasonable claim to make before MLG, but a lot of people wouldn't have been totally convinced her results were good enough. Now though, no one has any excuse

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The cooldown of an airdodge counts as an animation right? It would be much easier if it didn't

I believe so, yes.

 

[Raziek]

No actually. She has results to back up -atleast- her current placing. I said anywhere from 12-15, right now she is 15th which is the end of her tournament results spectrum. Really good placings should be enough for us to look at the higher end of her usual results spectrum.

I'm not sure if you missed it, but people are saying she should move up to 11th-12th. That would have been a reasonable claim to make before MLG, but a lot of people wouldn't have been totally convinced her results were good enough. Now though, no one has any excuse

Like DMG continues to say though, you have to look at who she would move ABOVE.

Pit I agree with, but although the results thread is outdated, she's (by that data) a little inferior to Tink and G&W. She could probably pass them with the updated data, I don't know for sure.

Like I said, if you want to pass two characters with established results, you're probably gonna need a better more than just Nick. I'm not saying it's not possible, but additional results helps credibility.

 

[Meru.]

Like DMG continues to say though, you have to look at who she would move ABOVE.

Pit I agree with, but although the results thread is outdated, she's (by that data) a little inferior to Tink and G&W. She could probably pass them with the updated data, I don't know for sure.

Like I said, if you want to pass two characters with established results, you're probably gonna need a better more than just Nick. I'm not saying it's not possible, but additional results helps credibility.

She's higher than TL and GW on Ankoku's list. The one with solely the character icons is less outdated than the one with the points, where ZSS is 11th (TL 14th, GW, idk 19th or something, but he had some good results lately so he should move up anyway).

 

[Raziek]

She's higher than TL and GW on Ankoku's list. The one with solely the character icons is less outdated than the one with the points, where ZSS is 11th (TL 14th, GW, idk 19th or something, but he had some good results lately so he should move up anyway).

Ah, thanks for that clarification.

I think she can definitely move up, if only because at least Pit will drop below her, but how much, I am unsure.

 

[Ripple]

did shaya mess with the tier list? it says he edited it 2 days ago. I thought luigi was above fox....maybe im imagining it

 

[Meru.]

did shaya mess with the tier list? it says he edited it 2 days ago. I thought luigi was above fox....maybe im imagining it

The only change Shaya has made is putting brackets around both Ness and Bowser. Fox has always been above Luigi in v4.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Like DMG continues to say though, you have to look at who she would move ABOVE.

Pit I agree with, but although the results thread is outdated, she's (by that data) a little inferior to Tink and G&W. She could probably pass them with the updated data, I don't know for sure.

Like I said, if you want to pass two characters with established results, you're probably gonna need a better more than just Nick. I'm not saying it's not possible, but additional results helps credibility.

Even without Nick she was like 13th and had B-tier level results. That's what we're saying. We don't need Nick to justify a move to high tier. We'd need another Nick to justify a move to top tier, but we realize that and aren't asking for it.

As of now she's above Toon Link, GaW, Lucario, and also Pit. That's four characters she could justifiably pass based on results alone. Beyond that, I don't know if it's as justifiable.

If I wanted to really pound Nick Riddle's results into the ground, I could say she should pass King Dedede, too, who hasn't had a good solo result at a tournament since CO18 at Winterfest, but I didn't say that (well actually I did, but could understand why people would resist that notion and support either ideology).

I get that you guys don't think ZSS is a very good character because she lacks traditional tools, but my argument has results to back it up and the opposition ("ZSS is fine where she is" or in some cases "her tier list position is generous") just doesn't. You have to have more than a gut feeling or vague notion that she isn't that great, because in real life, she's doing pretty well.

 

[Deleted member]

The only change Shaya has made is putting brackets around both Ness and Bowser. Fox has always been above Luigi in v4.

I can't imagine why. I expect Luigi to move up in the next list.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I have weegee moving up 1 in my list :D

 

[Purple]

I have weegee moving up 1 in my list :D

I like your avatar Z :'D

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

...furries...

 

[Purple]

...furries...

We're taking over.

 

[Purple]

I can't imagine why. I expect Luigi to move up in the next list.

Fox is still -really- good >;S. Does better against MK at least.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fox is still -really- good >;S. Does better against MK at least.

Ignoring his bad match-ups he's a top/high quality character, absolutely. Fox is awesome.