The HARDEST Match-Up(s) For Each Character - Block 4: Olimar, Pikachu & Kirby.

[Garnet]

Kirby and Pikachu are both worse than GAW, and probably Marth too. Pikachu in addition to being a fast small target, also chain grabs falco to 100%, that's almost as bad for falco as the IC's chain grab and pikachu is a better character than the IC's otherwise as well. GAW actually isn't amazing against falco, he counters him, but he's not the worst. I think it's definitely IC's or Pikachu.

Oh I didn't know about the chaingrab. Falco has a hard time approaching IC's which probably ends up into a chain throw = 1 stock. GaW "counters" Falco but that's all I suppose.

I have to disagree on Marth though. Many people say he's one of Falco's worst matchups but that's not true. Laser camping is easy to pull of but Marth has more priority up close which causes trouble but Marth can be handled pretty well. Reflector is useful also.

Kirby......well not many moves can work on him in all situations. That floating is more trouble than most people think.

 

[brinboy789]

MK: bowser, snake
snake: d3?
ddd: IC's, olimar?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So what's the deal with the Bowser CG, anyways? From one side, I hear that now bowser is a counter for MK, and from the other I keep hearing that it doesn't matter because MK shouldn't be getting grabbed anyways...

 

[Nic64]

I think it's too soon to be calling bowser one of MK's worst matchups, maybe it could turn out that way but given that this CG was just discovered and there is no real anecdotal evidence even of any kind that bowser is great against MK...yeah, snake and diddy for now IMO.

 

[brinboy789]

So what's the deal with the Bowser CG, anyways? From one side, I hear that now bowser is a counter for MK, and from the other I keep hearing that it doesn't matter because MK shouldn't be getting grabbed anyways...

before the infinite bowser was like 45:55. now with the infinite, bowser has the clear advantage. and MK can definitely get grabbed, with his disgusting air speed. and for anybody that says nado > bowser, OOS fortress > nado

 

[Zesty_Chicken]

MK: I don't really pay attention to MK, so I'll guess MK.
Snake: D3, and after seeing Dabuz beat Ally, maybe Olimar.
Falco: IC's or G&W.
D3: IC's.

Falco's hardest is probably the IC's. They're small, so it's hard to hit them with lazers. There's two of them, which makes CGing practically impossible, and the best I've seen a Falco do was just spam Phantasm to space and lazer the IC's (I think that was Sethlon). On top of that, their down b interrupts all of Falco's approaches, and they can CG for a stock.

 

[smashkng]

Meta Knight has advantage over everyone, though some are nearly even, so Meta Knight's hardest "counter" is himself.

Is D3 invincible against DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser and Wolf?

 

[Pez55]

MK: MK
Snake: DDD
Falco: Kirby or Gaw
DDD: Gaw

 

[Coney]

Is D3 invincible against DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser and Wolf?

If infinites are allowed, kind of. Unless the affected character is incredible at spacing, they're probably going to get grabbed, and it'll mean a stock. But there are some misconceptions about our "infinite" grabs anyway...

If infinites (and small-steps, for that matter) aren't, some of these matches aren't bad. After playing some really good Luigi's, I'd say it's about even. Most characters have an issue killing DDD...not Luigi. That said, we can edgeguard a non-resourceful Luigi something awful.

Never played an incredible Mario, but I'd imagine their cape could really cause some headaches for our recovery...

EDIT -

DDD: Gaw

 

[uhmuzing]

I'd say R.O.B. is a hard matchup for my Marth...

 

[.AC.]

MK: I don't really pay attention to MK, so I'll guess MK.
Snake: D3, and after seeing Dabuz beat Ally, maybe Olimar.
Falco: IC's or G&W.
D3: IC's.

Falco's hardest is probably the IC's. They're small, so it's hard to hit them with lazers. There's two of them, which makes CGing practically impossible, and the best I've seen a Falco do was just spam Phantasm to space and lazer the IC's (I think that was Sethlon). On top of that, their down b interrupts all of Falco's approaches, and they can CG for a stock.

please dont take into consideration wi-fi matchups.

snake:D3
MK:MK/snake
Falcoikachu/ICs by far,probably pka is a worst matchup
D3:Falco by far

 

[uhmuzing]

please dont take into consideration wi-fi matchups.

snake:D3
MK:MK/snake
Falcoikachu/ICs
D3:Falco by far

That seems pretty accurate.

 

[Nic64]

please dont take into consideration wi-fi matchups.

agreed, I still think oli is one of snake's worst matchups, but it's skewed a lot more online, and if we're talking about wifi this list would have stupid amounts of wolf =(

 

[hippiedude92]

Marth? I agree Marth is a terrible match for luigi, but it's nothing compared to MK. Luigi can punish Marth's mistakes if he's really patient... with Mk they have to do something really stupid to get punished... not to mention once you're offstage you're toast, even at 50%...

But I agree, it's not DDD, even with the infinite. It's a sucky matchup for sure but it's not luigi's worst.

EDIT: Also I thought Ganon's worst match-up was sheik... like 5-95 sheik's favor or something

Not really, it highly depends on the Marth. Luigi can beat a scrubby to somewhat slightly above average Marth. But a good marth yes. But it isn't a impossible matchup. From what i seen, as long you can PS, you'll be fine. But that's only natural and doesn't take account for in matchups which is why i hate matchup debates lol.

Back then, I think Gheb_101? said luigi had the tools to take down Mk, I'm just not sure if im seeing it in action. Well probably because i got 0 death'd twice on brinstar by D1's mk so idk LOL

Well, FMOI.
Keep in mind, an infinite is a losing matchup. So it's an impossible to win without player error on the Dedede's side. And besides that, Mario gets tooled by D3 regardless. He outranges us, outgimps us, and can Dedecide to take a game. There's much more than just that, but Mario's severely outdone by the king.

I think most tourneys ban D3's infinite on Mario now. But the CG hurts alot more though. It's like 4/6 D3 w/o infinite but w/ CG. Probably 45:55 if D3 doesnt CG at all but lol. He doesn't completely wrecking us when it comes to range har har >___>

Falco is definitely not Diddys hardest matchup. Most of the people onthe Diddy boards agree that its between Marth and Luigi.
Also, Ness and Lucas all get inifinited by Marth so he should be their hardest matchup.
I believe Ganons hardest matchup is Sheik. He gets Ftilt comboed like crazy and is easily gimped by needles.
And why is Falcos hardest the ICs. Id say its more G&W or MK.
Id say Falco should be D3 hardest and ROBs hardest should be ZSS.
Shouldnt Foxs hardest be Pika because of the 100%+ combo.
And squirtles I think is Yoshi cause of his CG to spike.

I never thought that since day 1 of brawl's release of the meta-game, Diddy's still put Luigi as their hardest matchup or one of the hardest lol. and yet i still get wrecked by people like Ninjalink xD!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Not that I'm sure, but shouldn't it be Wario for Metaknight?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Nope, MK.

First 4 goes like this:

MK:MK (Debatable, but MK is for sure even, unlike some other ones which haven't been proven yet.
Snake: D3 (No Doubt)
D3: Falco (Pretty obvious, Falco can CG D3, D3 can't CG Falco, Falco's lasers wreck D3 from far away.)
Falco: Prolly Pika, Maybe IC's.

 

[Denzi]

Falco: Prolly Pika, Maybe IC's.

It's definitely IC's.

And GnW is by no means one of Falco's hardest matches.

 

[BigLøu]

Not really, it highly depends on the Marth. Luigi can beat a scrubby to somewhat slightly above average Marth. But a good marth yes. But it isn't a impossible matchup. From what i seen, as long you can PS, you'll be fine. But that's only natural and doesn't take account for in matchups which is why i hate matchup debates lol.

Back then, I think Gheb_101? said luigi had the tools to take down Mk, I'm just not sure if im seeing it in action. Well probably because i got 0 death'd twice on brinstar by D1's mk so idk LOL



I think most tourneys ban D3's infinite on Mario now. But the CG hurts alot more though. It's like 4/6 D3 w/o infinite but w/ CG. Probably 45:55 if D3 doesnt CG at all but lol. He doesn't completely wrecking us when it comes to range har har >___>



I never thought that since day 1 of brawl's release of the meta-game, Diddy's still put Luigi as their hardest matchup or one of the hardest lol. and yet i still get wrecked by people like Ninjalink xD!

Luigi has no chance against a meta playing at the gayest level possible. I honestly am starting to think that matchup is borderline unwinnable. Luigi has nothing for range against mk, no way to approach or make meta approach. Probably will get gimped if thrown off the stage. Once you give meta's enough time to dabble with luigi, the matchup is defintly horribly one-sided. But I just pick snake now against mk anyways.
Honestly I don't know how boss does it @_@

I don't think luigi is THAT hard for diddy. Diddy's just like to give up once they notice they cant naner combo luigi. Diddy's upsmash beats all of luigi aerials, forcing luigi to approach differently.Not only that,if luigi shields the upsmash he will get his shield wrecked AND will slide awayfrom beaing able to do anything. Fair beats like all recovery options and it can gimp at stupidly low percentages. The matchup just needs to be played differetly. It isnt worse then 60:40 luigi.

 

[Talvi]

MK: Ally

10epicwins

 

[smashkng]

If infinites are allowed, kind of. Unless the affected character is incredible at spacing, they're probably going to get grabbed, and it'll mean a stock. But there are some misconceptions about our "infinite" grabs anyway...

If infinites (and small-steps, for that matter) aren't, some of these matches aren't bad. After playing some really good Luigi's, I'd say it's about even. Most characters have an issue killing DDD...not Luigi. That said, we can edgeguard a non-resourceful Luigi something awful.

Never played an incredible Mario, but I'd imagine their cape could really cause some headaches for our recovery...

Being nearly impossible to no get grabbed by D3 due it's massive range unlike IC which is tiny it's like 80-20 at least on Mario, Luigi, Samus and Wolf, DK and Koopa. Additionally Luigi lacks range and proper approach while D3 is the heaviest character when attacked vertically (I think) so Fire Jump Punch and forward smash is weaker on him than anyone else (most if I'm wrong). D3 is still a counter of Luigi even if infinites are banned.

 

[C.box]

MK:MK
Snake : D3
D3: ice climbers
Falco : Ice climbers .

 

[.AC.]

MK:MK
Snake : D3
D3: ice climbers
Falco : Ice climbers .

ice climbers are not close to being d3´s worst matchup as falco is,which if played properly is borderline unwinnable.the rest are accurate.

btw can more than one character be put as a worst matchup if they are both equally or at least very close to being a worst matchup?

 

[xDD-Master]

btw can more than one character be put as a worst matchup if they are both equally or at least very close to being a worst matchup?

Not the proper sense of this thread, but if there would really be no clear agreement about one hardest MU then it would be OK to add 2-3 characters I think (Not more than 3). Otherwise I could just change the thread title to: The HARDEST Match-Up(s) For Each Character... well let's try at first to find the hardest.

For now it looks mainly like this:
MK : MK (Until the Bowser Infinit will not show some results I think it should stay at the ditto)
Snake : DDD (Some also think Olimar...)
DDD : Falco (Some also think Olimar OR ICs...)
Falco : Pikachu OR ICs (Here is the biggest disagreement )

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Just leave it at

MK:MK
Snake:D3
D3:Falco
Falco: IC's.

That's like, the truth. Denzi (smart Falco main) said IC's were harder than Pika for Falco, so I'll go with that.

 

[Blad01]

ICs hardest match-up for Falco ? :/ Full Hop Dair, IAP (against grab), Lasers and Shine (against iceblocks and SH approaches) make this match-up a lot less difficult.

I would say Pika with his new CG, or G&W. (Smart defensive G&W, not being flashy) Kirby is also one of the hardest match-ups for Falco, but I have zero experience in this MU.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Personally I don't know with Falco, I'm going off what Denzi said.

 

[Nexus Bond]

Falco can also infinite Pika on Pictochat (or at least have a 100% combo on him with chaingrab to laser lock) which makes the matchup more even. Also pikachu's chaingrab must be started at 20% to work. IC is his hardest matchup.

 

[Khaoz]

Espy, you just 2-0'ed Roy_R in tournament. The last 3 or 4 times we have played in tournament I have won every time. I won 2-1 at Whobo, 3-1 at Gamelot, and 2-0 at hobo16 against you. I think Roy_R is better then me, and most GW's just don't understand the match-up with sonic.

GW and Marth do similar, but GW can set-up better walls, can punish Sonics spindash better OOS because of his up-b, can recover better against sonic...I think GW is slightly harder for sonic is then marth is honestly.

I think I have to agree with Hylian here. Though both are tough match-ups, I find it alot easier to space, approach, and punish Marth than GW. I would put GW as hardest , followed by olimar and then marth.But thats just through my personal experience.

MK and Snake are definitely NOT his hardest match-ups though.


Also,I've heard from Bwett (a pretty well known yoshi main) that wolf is a pretty hard counter to yoshi.


but sticking to the order of things...

I agree with S.O.L.I.D.'s list of:


MK:MK (unless that Bowser infinite I hear ab really is true)
Snake:D3
D3:Falco
Falco: IC's.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Falco can also infinite Pika on Pictochat (or at least have a 100% combo on him with chaingrab to laser lock) which makes the matchup more even. Also pikachu's chaingrab must be started at 20% to work. IC is his hardest matchup.

*plays pikachu*

*bans pictochat*


Sort of deals with the combo, no?

 

[MorphedChaos]

Wario is pretty much the hardest matchup for MK/Snake/Falco/D3 or has 50:50 6/4 6/4 7/3 respectably with each character. (Wario kinda counters top tier.)

I do know for a fact though, that Wario is MK's hardest non mirror matchup.

 

[Blad01]

Falco can also infinite Pika on Pictochat (or at least have a 100% combo on him with chaingrab to laser lock) which makes the matchup more even. Also pikachu's chaingrab must be started at 20% to work. IC is his hardest matchup.

Yeah, more even on a CP... A CP is supposed to be in your advantage anyways.

Pika's CG can be started at 0%, he can just use Fthrows and pummels to get the 20%.

 

[Nexus Bond]

Yeah, more even on a CP... A CP is supposed to be in your advantage anyways.

Pika's CG can be started at 0%, he can just use Fthrows and pummels to get the 20%.

It's easy to break out of pummels before 20%, and once you get over that he can't dthrow chaingrab anymore.
Pikachu can ban Pictochat, but the laser lock can also be done on Lylat Cruise, and parts of Delfino. The matchup isn't too much in Pikachu's favor, if it isn't even. I think G&W, IC's, and Kirby are worse matchups for the talking bird.

 

[xDD-Master]

OK week 1 is over ^^

-----------------
MK : MK
Snake : DDD
Falco : ICs
DDD : Falco
-----------------

NOW WEEK 2:
-----------------
Gaw :
Marth :
Diddy :
-----------------

my opinion:
Gaw : Snake
Marth : MK
Diddy : Luigi

 

[Pez55]

Gaw : Snake
Marth : MK
Diddy : Marth

 

[brinboy789]

^ that looks accurate imo

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Dedede worst matchup is Pika.

90% CG WTF?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Wario is pretty much the hardest matchup for MK/Snake/Falco/D3 or has 50:50 6/4 6/4 7/3 respectably with each character. (Wario kinda counters top tier.)

I do know for a fact though, that Wario is MK's hardest non mirror matchup.

But this takes into account mirror matches, so MK is MK's hardest matchup.

What are you talking about D3 BEATS Wario...

Wario doesn't counter top tier what are you smoking?

:sniper:

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Wario does not counter top tiers...

At least not D3/Snake/MK

(IDK bout the Falco matchup)

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Yeah, exactly..

OK so:

GnW: I dunno, Snake I guess?
Marth: MK no question.
Diddy: Marth.

 

[TLMSheikant]

GaW: Snake
Marth: Metaknight
Diddy: Marth


EDIT: I basically repeated what SOLID said >_> but its acurate.